Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[hiver]

I see a lot.. or at least some people going down the logic that good combat is not required on account of the original not having good combat.
They say, no just worry about the story, since i liked the story in original the most so let me have that again.

It would be a grievous mistake.

Those same people will criticize and deride such a game for lacking anything else apart from the good story.
its going to be "Its a text adventure!" all over again.

This new Torment needs to have a good combat system precisely because the original didnt.
Backed by a good encounter design with nicely developed enemies for which the setting provides more than enough opportunities.
And this is the second big reason why it should have turn based combat.
First being the fact that inXile will have a new tested TB system ready and working, requiring relatively minor adjustments.

I also see the same mentality expressed about the setting.
WRONG.

It was the setting that supported and enhanced the story. And story made the setting better, deeper.
These core features work together in games, enhancing and influencing one another. For better or worse.
Cut out one and you loose on the overall quality.

All of these three core features should be either enhanced where original was lacking or try to maintain quality where it was good.

 

[Haba]

Decide? No. Have input? Most definitely. So early in pre-production a lot is up in the air. I'm currently personally spamming Kevin and Colin with mails about how I really prefer 2D and TB to 3D and RTwP for this game. I don't think they're looking for a ton of community input in this decision, it's up to artists and designers in the end, but the target audience's opinion does count.

When it comes to creative industries, strong internal vision always produces better end result than design by committee.

Listening to the loudest minority, even Codex, will probably not end up well. In your example, if the makers of the game love 3D and RTwP but are forced to make 2D and TB because that is what the audience demands...

 

[Brother None]

I can't really hype myself for this as much as I can for WL2, I didn't really like PS:T as much as I thought I would. I guess the appeal of good writing and plot can only go so far. I'd rather Fargo try and focus on titles which emphasize game systems and game mechanics, not being dragged through another writer's story.

Why not both? Variety is the spice of life, different things appeal to different people, and there's a variety of options with "traditional cRPGs" as a genre. Torment will be more narrative focused, WL2 more gameplay and choice-and-consequence focused (though both heavily focus on C&C, but WL2 will be more open). Nothing wrong with doing both

Listening to the loudest minority, even Codex, will probably not end up well. In your example, if the makers of the game love 3D and RTwP but are forced to make 2D and TB because that is what the audience demands...

Yeah, that won't happen. That said, you can still have a strong internal vision and listen to outside input, especially if you see the drawbacks and advantages of different systems (RTwP and TB) and could argue a bit either way, then fresh perspective can help, from individuals or more a wider audience. But yeah, the final decision has to make sense to you, the system designer or artist, for combat system and 3D-vs-2D.

 

[suejak]

Why the hell would a Torment successor be TB?

 

[Infinitron]

I think that just from a funding perspective, it would be unwise to make it TB.

It would alienate at least some portion of fans of the original Torment, and they might not pledge.

 

[Brother None]

Why the hell would a Torment successor be TB?

Because RTwP sucks.

 

[Kirtai]

Oh, I'm interested in the topic of the thread and could probably even answer or at least talk about some concerns since I know more about the project than anyone except inXile's own staff (and Monte & staff, obv).

So, are there strong superhuman intelligences? If so, how do normal level intelligences (i.e. players) survive without being stomped/assimilated/puppeteered? :D

 

[scrambles]

Why the hell would a Torment successor be TB?

It's not fun continually pressing space bar in combat to think about what you wanna do next. It's twitchy and it puts too much emphasis on the reflexes of the player, instead of giving the player the opportunity to take their time and think.

 

[Brother None]

There are different intelligences, sure. Superior ones? Yeah, if not so many. How do you survive? I dunno, last I checked earth is pretty crowded despite the presence of one intelligence that is dominatingly more powerful than any other. You get in the way, they swat you. But we have no interesting in wiping out all other species. Just when they're inconvenient or we need em for something do we terminate or dominate. The mere presence of superior intelligences hardly necessitates the domination or extermination of all inferior intelligences, humanity included.

It's hard for humanity (and the humanity of Numenera is hardly the humanity we have now) to thrive in such circumstances but a) humanity is not thriving and b) there aren't a lot of beings in the Numenera universe with the ability to utilize technology to their full potential and those that do generally don't have any direct interest in humanity, from what I understand (kind of unrelated to the inXile game) and c) there is no steady, large culture that is higher than the medieval-level Steadfest populated mostly by humans. This isn't Mass Effect where a presence of an undefeatable foe is explained and established and you then defeat it anyway. A foe being more intelligent or technologically advanced than the player character does not make him undefeatable by definition, that depends on the difference between the two. Some being will be beyond players to defeat, that's no different in fantasy than it is in scifi. A God by any other name...

Of course, the game is written by human writers for human players, so if that's what you're getting at (I didn't really read the shouting match), then well, it's still science fiction, not an attempt to realistically depict what happens when technology develops beyond human understanding. Neither is Wasteland 2, which also has some high tech. If that's unacceptable to you, then really all sci fi is unacceptable to you, this included.

I think that just from a funding perspective, it would be unwise to make it TB.

It would alienate at least some portion of fans of the original Torment, and they might not pledge.

I don't think that's such a problem. This game isn't targeting Infinity Engine nostalgia like Eternity was. The combat needs to be better and well-suited to quick resolution since it's not the focus. RTwP? I think the Torment audience wouldn't mind a switch. As long as it's better.

 

[Harold]

Why the hell would a Torment successor be TB?

It's not fun continually pressing space bar in combat to think about what you wanna do next. It's twitchy and it puts too much emphasis on the reflexes of the player, instead of giving the player the opportunity to take their time and think.

Way too obvious. d at your avatar tough so

 

[Infinitron]

I think the Torment audience wouldn't mind a switch. As long as it's better.

Trust me - they would.

There are storyfags out there, man. Storyfags as far as the eye can see. They live. They breathe. They don't want to be locked into turn-based combat. They want to be able to run away quickly and ignore the combat entirely.

If inXile make this game TB, it will cost them.

 

[Roguey]

Trust me - they would.

There are storyfags out there, man. Storyfags as far as the eye can see. They live. They breathe. They don't want to be locked into turn-based combat. They want to be able to run away quickly and ignore the combat entirely.

Ah yes.

She eventually came around to liking turn based though. It was just the awful single-character-control-only stuff that wasn't fun.

 

[Brother None]

Trust me - they would.

There are storyfags out there, man. Storyfags as far as the eye can see. They live. They breathe. They don't want to be locked into turn-based combat. They want to be able to run away quickly and ignore the combat entirely.

Ah, but that's a separate question. Torment should have minimal combat, and allow avoidance and running away. But that doesn't really depend on TB or RTwP, it just requires a combat system that allows quick resolution and has a level of simplicity when you're fighting rote, average battles. Tactical TB like WL2 uses tends to get bogged down in those fights and I don't think Torment will have any kind of extensive tactical system of that sort. I think the mindset that TB excludes quick resolution which you've espoused earlier, that "casual" combat per definition means RT, is flawed and limited. Get creative with TB and you can create a system with more flow, just like you can create more tactical RT systems (even when they'll still depend on twitch to some extent).

Will some people be turned off by the mere mention of TB? Sure. But you can't please everyone. You have to pick whatever works best, not what you think works best in the market.

 

[Infinitron]

Will some people be turned off by the mere mention of TB? Sure. But you can't please everyone. You have to pick whatever works best, not what you think works best in the market.

It's hardly that simple. They're selling nostalgia here, and that nostalgia is for a real time game.

I'd be very surprised if this game ends up being TB.

 

[Brother None]

It's hardly that simple. They're selling nostalgia here, and that nostalgia is for a real time game.

I'd be very surprised if this game ends up being TB.

And Wasteland nostalgia was for a phasebased game. They still turned it into a turn-based game. Because it works better.

We're discussing it now. I don't know what'd give you the idea that it would be "very surprising" if this game ends up being TB. It's a valid option. But it'd be a different TB from Wasteland 2.

 

[suejak]

I don't really see a point.

 

[scrambles]

I don't think so, I remember the start of the PE Kickstarter and it wasn't really specific love of real-time combat that drove it so quickly, it just just a vague hype about Obsidian and the name dropping of all those games, lots of fanboys and a "take my money!" kinda thing, if WL2 is good (and it better be) then Fargo will have a lot of leeway as long as his presentation video gives lots of hype.

 

[Infinitron]

And Wasteland nostalgia was for a phasebased game. They still turned it into a turn-based game. Because it works better.

Most of the gaming public doesn't recognize that distinction, so it didn't hurt their selling of the game. This is a marketing issue, not a facts issue.

We're discussing it now. I don't know what'd give you the idea that it would be "very surprising" if this game ends up being TB.

I just told you. Also, Project Eternity went RTwP and got more money than Wasteland 2, so that's another reason.

It's a valid option. But it'd be a different TB from Wasteland 2.

There is one kind of TB that could work for marketing Torment to storyfags - JRPG-style TB. Although that would of course trigger massive butthurt from a different market segment.

 

[Brother None]

This is a marketing issue, not a facts issue.

*shrugs* You don't make design decisions for marketing. Well. Unless you're Bethesda.

I just told you. Also, Project Eternity went RTwP and got more money than Wasteland 2, so that's another reason.

You seem oddly passionate about RTwP. I'm getting a little unnerved by your oddly pushy tone.

Eternity appealed to a more mainstream crowd than Torment. BG != PS:T. RTwP has very little to do with that.

I'm telling you that factually no decision has been made to make it RTwP. They're leaning towards it but if we figure something out that works better they'll do that instead. I'm pushing for TB since I prefer that given the game's context. It's a design decision, not a marketing decision. If you want to argue it from that angle, great. If you think money will sway it? Heh.

There is one kind of TB that could work for marketing Torment to storyfags - JRPG-style TB. Although that would of course trigger massive butthurt from a different market segment.

I've never played a jRPG in my life, so I wouldn't know about that.

 

[Infinitron]

You seem oddly passionate about RTwP.

I've already told you elsewhere that I'm cut from a somewhat different cloth than the stereotypical Codexer.

Eternity appealed to a more mainstream crowd than Torment. BG != PS:T. RTwP has very little to do with that.

I'm telling you that factually no decision has been made to make it RTwP. They're leaning towards it but if we figure something out that works better they'll do that instead. I'm pushing for TB since I prefer that given the game's context. It's a design decision, not a marketing decision. If you want to argue it from that angle, great. If you think money will sway it? Heh.

Okay, don't say I didn't warn you.

 

[Brother None]

Okay, don't say I didn't warn you.

Oh, I am well and truly warned.

 

[FeelTheRads]

here is one kind of TB that could work for marketing Torment to storyfags - JRPG-style TB.

The fuck? That would market Torment to JRPGs fags if anything. And it already has enough of those in the fanbase. Doesn't need anymore scum.

You seem oddly passionate about RTwP.

Don't you know? We're swimming in TB games! Too much is too much, man!

 

[Ulminati]

RTwP is well and fitting for a Torment successor. They have a prestigious reputation of being a game you play despite the shit gameplay to uphold.

And RTwP does shit combat so much better than TB.

 

[scrambles]

Numenera p&p seems to be a good fit though, simple d20 system, only 3 classes, and a focus on storytelling.

 

[DwarvenFood]

hiver vs. LS light, the showdown.

Who's LS lite?

Lyric Suite. You still lack a lot of Codex knowledge.