Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[sea]

It could be on a tangent from the first game.

For example, even though Yxunomei and Belhifet were killed/banished in Icewind Dale, Black Isle still managed to continue Icewind Dale 2 on the track of what happened with all the half-human aberrations that were born from women kidnapped as breeders by the Yuan-ti and the servants of Belhifet. In the second game, the cambions and the half-human, half-yuan-ti formed a violent resistance against the "hypocritical mundanes" that rejected them from their society.

Similarly, there are multiple tangents that could be taken from the first game.

1. The Fortress of Regrets and the possibility of someone exploiting it for his sinister purpose.
2. An organization formed by the Greater Shadows that once haunted the fortress, who now extend their influence in the Prime Material Plane.
3. An expedition to retrace the Nameless One's steps after his legendary travels across the planes, by a person or a group of people also seeking immortality, but without the dire consequences that happened to the Nameless One.

And so on and so forth.

The amount of stuff in Torment that qualifies as original intellectual property is quite low and it'd be a legal nightmare to sort any of that stuff out because of how tied up with the license it is (and I doubt they will get the official D&D license to do as they please). Wizards and/or Atari probably own 99% of the game content anyway, so again, where does that leave inXile? You can't just make an "unofficial sequel" to a game, both because it makes no sense narratively as well as for practical legal reasons.

As for "thematic" sequels, sure, but then why use the Torment connection at all? Games that discuss philosophical issues like the nature of the self aren't exactly a brand. It's all marketing crap at this point, and we all know how well "spiritual sequels" work out thanks to BioShock.

As a studio, they have not produced anything that is substantially impressive, so they inspire very very little confidence of becoming worthy developers of a new Planescape: Torment.

True, but bitches gotta get paid. The reality of games development is no matter how big an RPG nerd you are, 99% of people are going to be working on games they do not really love. Obsidian, despite their rocky financial history, are extremely lucky in that regard.

 

[Wyrmlord]

meh they are just doing the same thing Obsidian does to survive. Granted cRPG wise Obsidian is vastly superior in this aspect over the one cRPG inXile has made.

Lots of studios have to be commercial to survive, which is fine, but The Bard's Tale (2004) and Hunted are neither commercial blockbusters nor fan acclaimed nor mainstream gaming press acclaimed. So where does inXile stand?

Obsidian had to be commercial to survive, but in the process made KotOR 2, NWN2, AP, NV,.etc. BioWare has to be commercial to survive, but made NWN, KotOR, JE, ME,.etc. Do inXile's titles, developed for commercial survival, stand anywhere next to these aforementioned titles - also developed for commercial survival? Should this not make us skeptical of inXile as a studio?

Most importantly, sometimes a developer is not under the obligation to survive commercially, but is given both the funding and freedom to make the game of their dreams. Does that produce a stellar final product? Ken Rolston's studio got $75 million of loan guarantees from the government. The result was Kingdoms of Amalur.

 

[made]

Will this be a direct sequel where TNO by a bizarre twist of fate was teleported not into the abyss to fight in the bloodwar, but instead into a generic fantasy setting with dwarves and elves (but with gunpowder!) where his torment continues?

 

[Wyrmlord]

True, but bitches gotta get paid. The reality of games development is no matter how big an RPG nerd you are, 99% of people are going to be working on games they do not really love. Obsidian, despite their rocky financial history, are extremely lucky in that regard.

I don't buy it.

On one hand, how is it that strategy gaming studios, especially Paradox, manage to make such super niche games, while still getting funding for their projects and financial survival from sales of their projects? How do games like Hotline Miami, despite their niche target, manage to get back their money?

On the other hand, even if they are making a game just for commercial survival, how is it that inXile manages to fall short of other studios that also only produce for commercial survival? TellTale Games, the makers of The Walking Dead only produce for commercial survival. Despite this limitation, TellTale Games produced something that many people really find impressive, including people on this niche site.

It's one thing to say that demands of execs and higher ups hinders the betterment of an otherwise good game. But in inXile's case, we are talking about extremely mediocre and unambitious projects. And all this rhetoric about how suits ruin everything really falls flat.

 

[Infinitron]

True, but bitches gotta get paid. The reality of games development is no matter how big an RPG nerd you are, 99% of people are going to be working on games they do not really love. Obsidian, despite their rocky financial history, are extremely lucky in that regard.

I don't buy it.

On one hand, how is it that strategy gaming studios, especially Paradox, manage to make such super niche games, while still getting funding for their projects and financial survival from sales of their projects? How do games like Hotline Miami, despite their niche target, manage to get back their money?

On the other hand, even if they are making a game just for commercial survival, how is it that inXile manages to fall short of other studios that also only produce for commercial survival? TellTale Games, the makers of The Walking Dead only produce for commercial survival. Despite this limitation, TellTale Games produced something that many people really find impressive, including people on this niche site.

It's one thing to say that demands of execs and higher ups hinders the betterment of an otherwise good game. But in inXile's case, we are talking about extremely mediocre and unambitious projects. And all this rhetoric about how suits ruin everything really falls flat.

inXile is a SMALL company. Brian Fargo made a strategic decision to keep the company tiny. I don't know why - ask him.

There's just no way they could make the kind of games the Codex wanted to see, at that size.

 

[Alex]

I don't know man, I haven't seen the kind of games I want to see from a big company in... well... since Troika closed, pretty much. Maybe being small is the way to go.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't know man, I haven't seen the kind of games I want to see from a big company in... well... since Troika closed, pretty much. Maybe being small is the way to go.

Well, they could have made indies, but Brian wanted to keep an AAA presence. So he made rather low quality AAA games with a tiny staff.

I don't know why. Maybe Brother None can fill in the blanks here.

 

[tuluse]

As for "thematic" sequels, sure, but then why use the Torment connection at all? Games that discuss philosophical issues like the nature of the self aren't exactly a brand. It's all marketing crap at this point, and we all know how well "spiritual sequels" work out thanks to BioShock.

It makes me think of Forever War and Forever Peace by Joe Haldeman. The two books are spiritually related, but do not share a universe, characters, or anything else.

Also, wasn't Fallout a spiritual successor?

Btw, there is a very good chance this is just a cynical marketing attempt, but it's not 100% sure. I think Fargo--if he's being honest--is the best chance for CRPGs to reclaim their glory and possibly even incline from 1999.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

As for "thematic" sequels, sure, but then why use the Torment connection at all? Games that discuss philosophical issues like the nature of the self aren't exactly a brand. It's all marketing crap at this point, and we all know how well "spiritual sequels" work out thanks to BioShock.

Don't forget Fallout/Wasteland, the answer to 140% of questions on this board (since its a tagged skill).

Although in this case, yes, there is a decent chunk of marketing crap thrown in.

 

[ghostdog]

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Roguey]

This thread reminded me that I still need to read Oathbreaker and check it for misogyny and racism (oh and quality I guess). That'll happen soonish.

 

[Infinitron]

This thread reminded me that I still need to read Oathbreaker and check it for misogyny and racism (oh and quality I guess). That'll happen soonish.

Send a copy to Lesifoere, maybe that'll win her over!

 

[tuluse]

I'm sure every person will be white so he doesn't have to worry about racism.

You going to post a review on the codex?

 

[Jaesun]

That was brilliant ghostdog And I love Watchmen <3

 

[Roguey]

I'll give my impressions but I'm not going to write some huge thing.

 

[Murk]

By making it a thematic sequel in an envisioned thematic franchise. It hasn't been done in gaming before but it's a concept that exists in other media. Besides, what other options are there? You either do it like this or just let the Torment name die. Which is also an option, true. Matter of preference. I like the idea of a thematic franchise.

Is this not how the Demons's Soulses/ Dark Souls games more or less work?

 

[Brother None]

Obsidian had to be commercial to survive, but in the process made KotOR 2, NWN2, AP, NV,.etc. BioWare has to be commercial to survive, but made NWN, KotOR, JE, ME,.etc. Do inXile's titles, developed for commercial survival, stand anywhere next to these aforementioned titles - also developed for commercial survival? Should this not make us skeptical of inXile as a studio?

Interestingly enough inXile's financial situation is much better than Obsidian's. Obsidian just took on any project anyone wanted, crappy contracts included, and has no ownership of anything they've made. inXile and/or Fargo owns several IPs, as well as The Bard's Tale and Choplifter HD. Great titles? No. But the Bard's Tale sold like gangbusters on iOS/Android. There's a steady-ish if low stream of income, which Obsidian does not have.

Most importantly, sometimes a developer is not under the obligation to survive commercially, but is given both the funding and freedom to make the game of their dreams. Does that produce a stellar final product? Ken Rolston's studio got $75 million of loan guarantees from the government. The result was Kingdoms of Amalur.

Ken Rolston was just an employee of that studio. Perhaps you should look up the details of that whole deal, it was basically all the misguided dream/vision of Curt Schilling to make an MMO, and only a part of the funding went to KoA as most of the studio chipped away at the Grand Delusion. It was a mess, financially and organizationally. It was not a case of creative freedom.

Will this be a direct sequel where TNO by a bizarre twist of fate was teleported not into the abyss to fight in the bloodwar, but instead into a generic fantasy setting with dwarves and elves (but with gunpowder!) where his torment continues?

The setting is very, very non-generic. I couldn't get behind it otherwise. I like the choices they're making, settings-wise.

Well, they could have made indies, but Brian wanted to keep an AAA presence. So he made rather low quality AAA games with a tiny staff.

I don't know why. Maybe Brother None can fill in the blanks here.

No idea. It does seem they're not particularly proud of Hunted: The Demon's Forge though, if that helps.

But that's pretty much behind them now. I don't think publishers are very happy with Fargo, and he knows that coming into pitching Wasteland 2. It's not just for show, the suits saw that pitch video too and they're not exactly happy. Making niche, crowdfunded titles is what inXile wants to do now, period, not like Obsidian or DoubleFine who will still continue to make publisher-backed games.

Although in this case, yes, there is a decent chunk of marketing crap thrown in.

Of course. Brian is great at marketing crap. Good thing too, you simply need someone like that around to make Kickstarter projects a success. No way to raise the kind of money he has without a talent for marketing and PR. It's a necessary evil.

Is this not how the Demons's Soulses/ Dark Souls games more or less work?

Possibly? I haven't played. I guess you could argue the same for Final Fantasy, another series I haven't played a single title of? Maybe the Japanese are streets ahead in this concept compared to us.

 

[Volourn]

Lame meaningless name dropping.

 

[Malhavoc]

Torment used a specific setting to tell a quirky story, yes, so leave it at that. I mean, all PST had was its story which was awesome, but it didn't leave room for sequels and its gameplay didn't offer anything special. We have Supreme Commander because Total Annihilation gave us cool gameplay wise so it makes sense. I fear this is just hype for now, but I have confidence in the team involved. I just hope they don't get stuck thinking they need to make PST2.

 

[eric__s]

I was a huge Torment fan as a kid. I can't remember how many times I played it, but it was a bunch and I even read the novelization (which was awful and had a bunch of weird shit on the back about stuff that wasn't actually in the book). Up until a few years ago, I'd say it was my favorite game. I played it again recently and I just wasn't that impressed. The setting is great, the characters are great, the writing is great, the concepts and themes are great, it is a very solid game! The problem is the volume of content. Not that there's too much of it, because I don't think you can have too much content in a game, but that there is too much overlap. You have to talk to everybody and read every line of dialogue, but everyone says pretty much the same thing. You will read 50 different descriptions from 50 different people about the Lady of Pain's maze that all say roughly the same thing. You will meet 100 people who say the Dustmen are crazy and 100 Dustmen who say they aren't. It's fine, I guess, that there is a lot of content overlap because it's a huge world, but they built the world and structured the narrative in a way that forces you to talk to as many people as possible, which forces you into monotonous conversations that may or may not lead to something new.

The other problem is lore. I guess I should make the distinction between in-game culture and lore. Culture establishes a setting and it's an immediate part of the environment. It explains why people behave the way they do, or why Sigil has a million portals, or who people even are. Sigil and the Dustmen and the Sensates and the portals and the dabuses and all of that are part of the game's culture; they are palpable elements of the game world. Culture explains why those githzerai guys attack Dakkon at that slave market. Lore is in-game trivia. It relates to nothing that is actually in the game, it's backstory about an ancient battle that was fought in Sigil a million years ago or the history of a sword or rumors about the origins of centaurs or being told about wars between guilds. It relates to nothing in the actual game and it means nothing. A huge amount of the game's text, entire books worth, is lore. This doesn't mean that every line of text in a game needs to have immediate value, but it means that every line of text should add something to the world, explain some concept or element or mystery. It adds nothing to know about the eating habits of some demon.

But I'm glad inXile is doing this and we've got a lot to look forward to in the future. I am sure they will do a good job. I haven't been actively keeping up with the development of any of these games - Wasteland or Project Eternity or Shadowrun or anything else - and I think it's probably best not to dwell on them too much. Let them do their jobs and if we're fortunate, we'll have something decent in a year and a half. If not, we'll be better for it by not having been so invested (emotionally, not monetarily!) in its creation.

 

[Lancehead]

I'm fine with inXile doing this, as they have McComb doing the work. While using "Torment" is kinda eh-what thing, they at least asked MCA about it. So that's cool in my book.

 

[alkeides]

The other problem is lore. I guess I should make the distinction between in-game culture and lore. Culture establishes a setting and it's an immediate part of the environment. It explains why people behave the way they do, or why Sigil has a million portals, or who people even are. Sigil and the Dustmen and the Sensates and the portals and the dabuses and all of that are part of the game's culture; they are palpable elements of the game world. Culture explains why those githzerai guys attack Dakkon at that slave market. Lore is in-game trivia. It relates to nothing that is actually in the game, it's backstory about an ancient battle that was fought in Sigil a million years ago or the history of a sword or rumors about the origins of centaurs or being told about wars between guilds. It relates to nothing in the actual game and it means nothing. A huge amount of the game's text, entire books worth, is lore. This doesn't mean that every line of text in a game needs to have immediate value, but it means that every line of text should add something to the world, explain some concept or element or mystery. It adds nothing to know about the eating habits of some demon.

Good point, one thing Morrowind did very well IMO was how the books built up the various in-game cultures. In a Torment sequel, I'd like to see more text that relates to things the protagonist will encounter in the game.

 

[CappenVarra]

 

[Oesophagus]

So it's a Torment successor in the sense that it will have nothing to do with Torment, apart perhaps from the story > combat element?
Good

I don't think publishers are very happy with Fargo, and he knows that coming into pitching Wasteland 2. It's not just for show, the suits saw that pitch video too and they're not exactly happy. Making niche, crowdfunded titles is what inXile wants to do now, period, not like Obsidian or DoubleFine who will still continue to make publisher-backed games.

I wonder how that wil work out for him. On the one hand, he doesn't have to take creative direction from anyone, on the other, he has to make his own bread. I guess this will all pan out after W2 is released, and the sales figures are in. But I'm not sure how far Fargo can rely on the backing of what is after all a niche audience.