Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[suejak]

A newfag discussing shit with a shitposter. Another day on the dex.

lol, my favourite part about Jaesun is the part where he never produces any content.

 

[Cool name]

No. Life is unbalanced and unfair and game rules should be balanced and fair.

Life is actually quite fair. If you do play your cards right you do go up. If you do not play the right you stay down. Both girls and boys do have different cards to play. So what? They can still play them right. They can still play them wrong. Will you next be telling us how choosing character backgrounds in Arcanum is wrong because the game should not differentiate between someone who did escape from the loonhouse and the son of a great hero? Should the crown prince react the same way to a character who is a pauper than to a character who is a duke? Should a sensualist and decadent marquis treat some mercenary he did hire the same way he does the adorable, sexy, and liberal baroness who did come to visit? Should New Reno's mechanics react the same way to the retarded tribal who did just come in looking for his car than they do react to the CHA 10 girl with big pretty eyes and tight leather clothes that did the same?

I am sure you will find what you are looking for in unmodded Bethesda's games. Do give them a try.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I don't believe that.

Also stukarz is a closet degenerate who's into women with wooly legs.

That's not what word "degenerate" means, you subhuman cretin.

Also, do you shave your legs? Because if not, any woman that is attracted to you, is also a "closet degenerate who's into men with wooly legs".

 

[Roguey]

Life is actually quite fair. If you do play your cards right you do go up. If you do not play the right you stay down.

How very Just World Fallacy.

Will you next be telling us how choosing character backgrounds in Arcanum is wrong because the game should not differentiate between someone who did escape from the loonhouse and the son of a great hero? Should the crown prince react the same way to a character who is a pauper than to a character who is a duque? Should a sensualist and decadent marquis treat some mercenary he did hire the same way he does the adorable, sexy, and liberal baroness who did come to visit? Should New Reno's mechanics react the same way to the retarded tribal who did just come in looking for his car than they do react to the CHA 10 girl with big pretty eyes and tight leather clothes that did the same?

Those are options you get in addition to choosing the player character's sex. If someone only wants to play female characters who are low on strength and combat skills, they can do that just fine without mandatory penalties imposed on everyone else.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I don't believe that.

Also stukarz is a closet degenerate who's into women with wooly legs.

That's not what word "degenerate" means, you subhuman cretin.

Also, do you shave your legs? Because if not, any woman that is attracted to you, is also a "closet degenerate who's into men with wooly legs".

It's actually more degenerate than what you consider degenerate.
Very butthurt about this, I see, though. Need someone to validate your opinions maybe? I suggest the Zoo, monkey section.

 

[evdk]

Very butthurt about this, I see, though. Need someone to validate your opinions maybe? I suggest the Zoo, monkey section.

I know you're lonely, but you won't pick up any people this way.

 

[Cool name]

How very Just World Fallacy.

For it to be the Just World Fallacy you do have to point where I did say it was 'morally fair' instead of just fair. I.E: Everyone does have the right to play their cards. Some do well. Some do not. Those who do well arise. Those who do bad are thrown to the gutter. The cards may be different but the rules are the same for everyone. Is Poker 'unfair'?

You are free to demonstrate how the laws of the game are not 'impartial' and 'fair' when those who are up and stop to play the game properly do fall down while those who are down are free to make a comeback and raise themselves up. Would it be for example unfair if we both did need the same thing and while you were able to offer more money for it the guy did prefer to give it to me for less money if I did sleep with him a number of times? Nope. We both had the chance to present our offers. Mine was better. Deal with it.

Those are options you get in addition to choosing the player character's sex. If someone only wants to play female characters who are low on strength and combat skills, they can do that just fine without mandatory penalties imposed on everyone else.

I do love it when people does start to move the goalposts.

You did say, and I quote: "The first two things shouldn't be affected at all and as for the latter, I actually liked how dialogue for male/female PCs in Divinity 2 was exactly the same. It was accidentally progressive ('cept for having flirt lines with female npcs but none for male). I was disappointed when they ruined that with Flames of Vengeance." It is thus implied you do not want, for example, for the character to be treated differently because she is a girl instead of a guy. Your point was not exclusive to stat boni.

You did also say, and I quote, "No. Life is unbalanced and unfair and game rules should be balanced and fair." as an answer to the idea female and male characters should have their own advantages and disadvantages. As I did prove in the previous paragraph you did not make it exclusive to stat boni, nor did I mention stat boni on my answer to that. Therefore the Crown Prince acting differently to a character you do create as a pauper or as a duke is as 'unfair' and 'unbalanced' as the guards acting differently because you are a girl or a boy.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I know you're lonely, but you won't pick up any people this way.

I was NOT trying to pick up stukarz, if that's the impression I gave you. I'm not into teenage perverted freaks.

 

[hiver]

Hiver:
How about some Tormenty crazy and weird factions? In PT factions corresponded with morality alignments... but you guys have Tides.

And all that background PA tech remnants and history and weird places and "dimensions"... So, What do you plan for factions?

Kevin Saunders :

Yes, we’ll have factions, but we’re not ready to discuss details yet.
We have some initial thoughts, but don’t want to nail these down too early as we are curious to see what ideas the backers come up with after we share more about the Tides, some game locations, etc.

I should mention that our current plan is that the Tides are not explicitly known or understood throughout the Ninth World (in contrast to Ultima’s virtues, for example, which have cities devoted to them).

There may be some who are aware of the Tides, but even those may not believe that they really exist, or may interpret them differently.
So while it’s possible there will be factions that are indirectly or directly tied to the Tides, we’re planning for factions in general to be orthogonal to them.

 

[80Maxwell08]

Now a word from George Ziets.
http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/4...ce=twitter&utm_campaign=shareanswer&_sg=&_sk=

 

[hiver]

Hah! One more for Turn Based goodness.

 

[Infinitron]

Update your journal, Roguey http://www.formspring.me/ksaun/q/427235869087253104

Was Aaron Meyers hired by you or is he a Obsidian liason like Avellone?

Aaron is a free agent. (At Obsidian, he was the lead artist on KOTOR2, Dwarfs, Alpha Protocol.) He got in touch with us when he heard we were working on Torment – he’s passionate about the IP, is excited about the direction we’re taking it, and wants to contribute to making Torment the best it can be.

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.formspring.me/CMcComb

 

[hoverdog]

What, a game in a post-singularity setting without the option to play as a mechanical lifeform, advanced bioconstruct or a body stealing AI? I am shocked.

Who said you can't be one

Spoiler

you are just unaware of the fact

 

[Roguey]

How very Just World Fallacy.

For it to be the Just World Fallacy you do have to point where I did say it was 'morally fair' instead of just fair. I.E: Everyone does have the right to play their cards. Some do well. Some do not. Those who do well arise. Those who do bad are thrown to the gutter. The cards may be different but the rules are the same for everyone. Is Poker 'unfair'?

It relies on luck, so yes it's unfair.

You are free to demonstrate how the laws of the game are not 'impartial' and 'fair' when those who are up and stop to play the game properly do fall down while those who are down are free to make a comeback and raise themselves up. Would it be for example unfair if we both did need the same thing and while you were able to offer more money for it the guy did prefer to give it to me for less money if I did sleep with him a number of times? Nope. We both had the chance to present our offers. Mine was better. Deal with it.

Having to exchange sex for goods to get what you want? Definitely not fair. Reminds me of http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2002/may/01/news.features11

You did say, and I quote: "The first two things shouldn't be affected at all and as for the latter, I actually liked how dialogue for male/female PCs in Divinity 2 was exactly the same. It was accidentally progressive ('cept for having flirt lines with female npcs but none for male). I was disappointed when they ruined that with Flames of Vengeance." It is thus implied you do not want, for example, for the character to be treated differently because she is a girl instead of a guy. Your point was not exclusive to stat boni.

I said I liked it, I didn't say "All dialogue in every RPG must be gender neutral" (though I would like to see more of it). And just because I want player sex to be a cosmetic option like skin/hair color or height doesn't mean I'm opposed to seeing different reactions to your character build which may include optional backgrounds.

You did also say, and I quote, "No. Life is unbalanced and unfair and game rules should be balanced and fair." as an answer to the idea female and male characters should have their own advantages and disadvantages. As I did prove in the previous paragraph you did not make it exclusive to stat boni, nor did I mention stat boni on my answer to that. Therefore the Crown Prince acting differently to a character you do create as a pauper or as a duke is as 'unfair' and 'unbalanced' as the guards acting differently because you are a girl or a boy.

If you try to make a game with realism in mind you're not going to get a balanced set of advantages and disadvantages. I suppose you can just make stuff up, but that will just upset both misogynerds and women so why bother? A guard is not going to treat all women the same just like they wouldn't treat all men the same, so I don't see why that should be part of the criteria of how they react to you. Much like how your physical appearance (aside from generic beauty/charisma stats or a made-up fantasy race) will never, ever be taken into account in a professionally-made RPG.

 

[Shadenuat]

Gotta give Agassi credit here. Enriching roleplay in CRPGs by creating gender specific content in dialogue can be lots of fun. Yeah, I remember I was drawn into discussion like that at Bioware forums...

: ...I still have few scars left from that time...

 

[janjetina]

I said I liked it, I didn't say "All dialogue in every RPG must be gender neutral" (though I would like to see more of it). And just because I want player sex to be a cosmetic option like skin/hair color or height doesn't mean I'm opposed to seeing different reactions to your character build which may include optional backgrounds.

So, your not opposed to restricting role-playing options, except for gender based role-playing options?

If you try to make a game with realism in mind you're not going to get a balanced set of advantages and disadvantages. I suppose you can just make stuff up, but that will just upset both misogynerds and women so why bother? A guard is not going to treat all women the same just like they wouldn't treat all men the same, so I don't see why that should be part of the criteria of how they react to you. Much like how your physical appearance (aside from generic beauty/charisma stats or a made-up fantasy race) will never, ever be taken into account in a professionally-made RPG.

In a game like Torment, role-playing (which does not necessarily imply realism, but internal setting consistency, and the fact is that RPG settings are derived from real world experiences) takes precedence over balance. In a game like Tetris, balance takes precedence over role-playing.

 

[Roguey]

So, your not opposed to restricting role-playing options, except for gender based role-playing options?

More or less. IMO it should be as anathema as an in-game reaction to those other things I listed. I don't see anyone clamoring for unique reactions to red hair or dark skin. Though now that I've brought it up I'm sure some skeeziness is incoming.

In a game like Torment, role-playing (which does not necessarily imply realism, but internal setting consistency, and the fact is that RPG settings are derived from real world experiences) takes precedence over balance. In a game like Tetris, balance takes precedence over role-playing.

Balance must always come first and it's a fantasy game in a completely different world. In Colin McComb's Oathbreaker, women can be physically equal-or-even-superior to men so I'm not too concerned about how they'll be treated in ToN.

 

[Mrowak]

So, your not opposed to restricting role-playing options, except for gender based role-playing options?

More or less. IMO it should be as anathema as an in-game reaction to those other things I listed. I don't see anyone clamoring for unique reactions to red hair or dark skin. Though now that I've brought it up I'm sure some skeeziness is incoming.

I don't get it. Why should it be an anathema?

It [poker] relies on luck, so yes it's unfair.

Wut?

 

[Roguey]

I don't get it. Why should it be an anathema?

Unnecessary and limits role-playing certain character concepts.

It [poker] relies on luck, so yes it's unfair.

Wut?

Games of chance can't be fair. It's totally possible to be dealt a bad hand that can never be turned into a good one.

 

[Gozma]

Ah, the Lyric Suite problem: How do you talk to someone that isn't ashamed to make retarded arguments based on their private definitions of words?

 

[Mrowak]

I don't get it. Why should it be an anathema?

Unnecessary and limits role-playing certain character concepts.

Ok, so you are saying that reactions to gender or similar attributes (e.g. hair color) limit role-playing options. Why and how? Or did I get it wrong?

It [poker] relies on luck, so yes it's unfair.

Wut?

Games of chance can't be fair. It's totally possible to be dealt a bad hand that can never be turned into a good one.

It depends what you mean by "fair". You see, poker, and any other card game for that matter is the game of statistics. Every player is subjected to the same rules, so in this sense it is very fair. True he may not get the best hand but he still can laverage it to you benefit. What's fascinating in card games is that victory is not achieved through a complete defeat of the opponent but reaching often suboptimal results in a series of games, which then bring you a substantial total profit. Experienced players often deliberately lose to bring more money into the pool, only to strike in the right moment.

In other words poker is not meant to be played once instance at a time - then it can be very unfair - we can agree. However in a series of games it's "unfairness" is diminished significantly - moreover it can be taken advantage of. In the end, it's randomness is one of the main draws of the game.

When I think about it now, this is kinda what happens in RPGs, especially those mainly stat-driven. To illustrate, if you have a single instance of a dice roll per turn these games are very unfair - one bad roll and Game Over for you good sir. However, if you get several instances, the randomness ceases to be "unfair" and becomes a legitimate challenge.

 

[FeelTheRads]

so in this sense it is very fair.

But it's not fair in the universal scheme. Because hurrr I got a bad hand, life is so unfair, I want to have the same cards as everybody else. ((((

 

[evdk]

so in this sense it is very fair.

But it's not fair in the universal scheme. Because hurrr I got a bad hand, life is so unfair, I want to have the same cards as everybody else. ((((

Join our glorious worker's revolution, comrade. Everyone gets cards according to his needs. Aces for everyone!

 

[Lancehead]

I don't get it. Why should it be an anathema?

Unnecessary and limits role-playing certain character concepts.

Ok, so you are saying that reactions to gender or similar attributes (e.g. hair color) limit role-playing options. Why and how? Or did I get it wrong?

I think he means that, in Arcanum, for example, for female characters -1 ST/+1 CN is bad, but Tomboy is good because the former is not an option but the latter is.