Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[veryalien]

Honestly, Brother None is the best thing that's happened to Inxile reaching out to fans. He's a real stand up guy who responds clearly and honestly.

 

[hiver]

Honestly, Brother None is the best thing that's happened to Inxile reaching out to fans. He's a real stand up guy who responds clearly and honestly.

 

[veryalien]

stuff

 

[hiver]

another newfag... another utter moron.

 

[veryalien]

hiver, something tells me you think about gay sex more than gay people do.

Just saying.

 

[Infinitron]

UPDATE: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera/posts/731869

TL;DR: Licensing Pillars of Eternity technology; Inventory and Loot; Crowdfunding milestone as Double Fine's Broken Age launches

 

[Infinitron]

My word, a good Kickstarter comment:

I always cringe a little (a lot) at character customization / inventory management stuff that is nondeterministic. It's kind of like how in the bad old days, wizards had a % chance of failing to learn from a scroll...people don't do that anymore for a real good reason. Knowing that you just failed to get arbitrary loot because of the dice is bad. Seeing the object you /could/ get, and then not getting it because the dice aren't in your favor, seems even worse: it's dangling something very desirable in front of players, then yanking it away sometimes, and often without a choice. Maybe you spent all your effort on it and failed anyway...maybe you know you need to conserve it. I get that there's strategy involved but I'm not so fond of strategy that is that random.

As much as I dislike savescumming, "wow I need that item" seems like a dangerous entry point, a great way to say "well that amazing game-changing item has a 95% chance if I spend all my effort, let me save first", which turns into "well, that 70% chance one is also as good as mine, right? let me save first", which turns into "well I save before 70% chances, maybe I just won't spend my effort on this at all and just reload every time until I get it", and pretty soon you're accustomed to savescumming on everything. Slippery slope but I've been there quite a few times.

Not to mention that playing honestly, and missing a game-changing item because you whiffed a 99% success chance, is a pretty big rage quit inducer all by itself...

Honestly, different people have VERY different approaches to loot and it's not this big of a deal for some people, but it is a really important aspect of games and really subtle changes can have some pretty big side effects. Often, adding things to make a loot system better can have big negatives on the rest of the game! Example, Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross. Some characters (one out of seven in CT, like three out of dozens and dozens in CC) can steal items from enemies. It's time consuming but they are generally one of a kind, especially from bosses. Lots of players feel like they are obligated to keep one of those members in the party at all times, regardless of all other circumstances--all plot elements and tactical considerations become secondary to "I don't want to miss out on loot", and the game is arguably worse off from it. Not to mention a lot of time wasted on battles just sitting around trying to make the steal roll (and reloading if you kill the critter first by mistake). Yeah...It's not a direct comparison by any means, but item collection often feels like it's separated from the rest of the game, a minigame that you need to win in order to get the most out of the real game. No matter how flavorful and in-character your loot system is, eventually it comes down to "I built this character around looting good equipment, and I got screwed five hours ago, and now the game mechanics are hurting me in a decidedly non-roleplaying fashion".

If you want your ability to loot to be based on your abilities and resources, I really like System Shock 2 (or maybe Iji) as an example. You can hack containers--if you have the skills. You spend resources to do it. Success isn't random: you either have the ability or you don't, and if you spend the resources, you get the prize every time. That lets you plan a lot better the second time through, when the joy of discovery takes a back seat to completionism. They're both fun. And if I know I'm going into a game to try and loot All The Things, I'd have more fun carefully planning out my character and my actions, than I would reloading and reloading and reloading until I can hit all those 20% chances.

Rereading again, I might be going a bit overboard here: So, major important items are not "loot drops", but do they still suffer through the random system? If they do, I don't think it's a good idea. If they don't, and the random items are sufficiently low power that you won't care if you missed one five hours ago (and can't collect them all regardless)...then that's fine, no problems there.

Adam Heine End the degeneracy!

 

[FeelTheRads]

Yeah, totally. ZOMG random number made me miss an item this can't stand game is punishing me too hard!!!!1

No, spending resources like in SS2 is not great at all. You just hoard them and you can savescum anyway if you don't think what you got was worth the spent resources.
BUT SAVESCUMMING MUST BE STOPPED!! WIHOUT IRON MAN OF COURSE CUZ I HAEV A LIFE LOL NOT A NERDBEARD

Some people should stay the fuck away from RPGs and stick their determinism up their ass.

 

[Visperas]

Savescumming is the real problem, if you can't do it for whatever reason, a nondeterministic system can be a lot of fun.

Edit: Yeah, as a developer I guess you can ignore it and both the savescummers and the "ironman-likers" will enjoy if it's good. I just don't like having the temptation...

 

[Morality Games]

UPDATE: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera/posts/731869

TL;DR: Licensing Pillars of Eternity technology; Inventory and Loot; Crowdfunding milestone as Double Fine's Broken Age launches

Man, that is great news. The Torment development process hasn't even started and it keeps getting better and better.

Everything that puts less burden on the developers makes me hopeful about the quality of the content they'll create. They have Wasteland 2's combat system and Eternity's engine.

Maybe several million dollars is a little optimistic for a big cRPG, but drawing from the resources of several multi-million dollar projects there is a chance.

 

[Excidium]

This is how inflated video game budgets have become.

Anyway that loot system sounds p. cool on paper.

 

[imweasel]

Oh noes, bad dice rolls. Can't learn scroll without F9. Gam sux.

Chug a potion of genius (the potion in your inventory that you have no use for otherwise...), then try and learn the scroll(s).

RNG is a bitch, but you can keep it at bay by making wise decisions.

 

[Infinitron]

https://twitter.com/Huminds

lol popamole fag

 

[Roguey]

So many game designers sure are mired in the mistakes of the past.

I'll continue to uphold the first commandment of Josh: "Thou shalt not have false g-ds (game designers) before me."

 

[Xor]

https://twitter.com/Huminds

lol popamole fag

@ColinMcComb RTwP is a proven system. Yet you chose to risk your credibility and that of inXile by experimenting with TB for TToN.

That's right, folks, RTwP is a proven system, unlike turn-based, which has apparently never been used before in anything ever, hence the need for InXile to "experiment" with it.




Seriously, this guy.

 

[Excidium]

I am very upset about random twitter messages

 

[Crooked Bee]

He's being followed by MCA though for some reason!

In fact, MCA's the only one following that guy. That's kind of... funny and also appropriate.

 

[tuluse]

I am very upset about random twitter messages

I'm very perplexed by that random twitter message. It leads to so many questions. Does he actually think TB is unproven? Does he just think RTwP is more proven? Is he just completely unaware of board games, pnp, and video games before 1997? Does his brain just not connect that a fun tb system outside of the computer world can sill be fun inside one? Does he just hate board games and pnp?

 

[Excidium]

Maybe he's just dumb and not worth of attention

 

[DeepOcean]

I am very upset about random twitter messages

I'm very perplexed by that random twitter message. It leads to so many questions. Does he actually think TB is unproven? Does he just think RTwP is more proven? Is he just completely unaware of board games, pnp, and video games before 1997? Does his brain just not connect that a fun tb system outside of the computer world can sill be fun inside one? Does he just hate board games and pnp?

I kinda translated: "There are a lot of fags like me but not enough TB guys, you are risking not selling to fags like me, think better." But, anyway if we gonna get butthurt with any random twitter from random retards we will go crazy. Are most codexers masochists?

 

[tuluse]

I seek understanding.

 

[The Bishop]

He probably means proven in a Torment-like game.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

hue

 

[PlanHex]

Oh hey, cool new update.
Let's talk about some random twitter guy instead.

 

[throwaway]

Gotta wonder what the licensing fee deal is?

I am very upset about random twitter messages

I'm very perplexed by that random twitter message. It leads to so many questions. Does he actually think TB is unproven? Does he just think RTwP is more proven? Is he just completely unaware of board games, pnp, and video games before 1997? Does his brain just not connect that a fun tb system outside of the computer world can sill be fun inside one? Does he just hate board games and pnp?

Not sure it's worth anyone's time but Devil's advocate: Yes. Yes. Not unlikely. N/A. N/A. I wouldn't be irrational to assume he's not interested/aware of board games and pnp.

Besides, come to think of it, which post-PST cRPG (we are talking about ~15 years here) would be the best candidate to "prove" TB?