Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Excidium]

The only people drawn to Numenera are people who don't know better because they never played an RPG in their life

 

[Blaine]

Fortunately, Tides should be completely fine in spite of/regardless of the rule set and basic source material.

 

[Excidium]

Yeah hopefully. Too bad it's free advertisement for that shitty game.

 

[Jaesun]

Yeah hopefully. Too bad it's free advertisement for that shitty game.

What specifically is wrong with that game?

 

[roll-a-die]

Yeah hopefully. Too bad it's free advertisement for that shitty game.

What specifically is wrong with that game?

Nothing, in reality, it's just a matter of taste. Class Balance and progression is the only minor issue I see with it. The systems in it are sound, and indeed some are even innovative. It toes the line almost perfectly between a mechanics heavy style system like Pathfinder, and a Narrative heavy system like FATE. In my opinion at least.

EDIT: Brainfart meant FATE and not WoD, WoD is actually rather mechanics heavy. But again these are my opinions.

 

[Excidium]

Yeah hopefully. Too bad it's free advertisement for that shitty game.

What specifically is wrong with that game?

Didn't I already answer that question months ago

 

[Jaesun]

Yeah hopefully. Too bad it's free advertisement for that shitty game.

What specifically is wrong with that game?

Didn't I already answer that question months ago

Care to refresh our memory?

 

[Excidium]

FFS L2Search

 

[PrimeJunta]

Yeah hopefully. Too bad it's free advertisement for that shitty game.

What specifically is wrong with that game?

A bunch of stuff although it's not nearly as bad as all that. Some mechanical things that are fairly broken IMO:

• The skill system. Skills can be anything you like, the Effort and Assets you put into an action are (rapidly) more important than training or specialization, plus Jacks get Flex Skill which means they can be "trained" in anything they like and switch that every day. While Effort does cost points from a pool, the recovery mechanic is extremely forgiving. The upshot is that any character can do anything just about equally well, and at higher tiers any character can succeed in any "impossible" task relatively reliably, even if it has nothing to do with that characters descriptor, type, or focus or any training, experience, or whatever else she may have.
• The special abilities aka esoteries, combat moves, or tricks of the trade. They're generally extremely broad, meaning they're used all the time or the GM constantly has to find ways to nerf them in play, or they're just boring. Example: the tier 1 Scan esotery, which basically allows players to look through walls, examine objects or creatures, or look for them in a certain radius which can be extended via Effort. It has a zero resource cost at base level, and as characters' Edge goes up, it gets stronger. Only an idiot would not Scan all the freakin' time, which gives you a bunch of players with constant 100% situational awareness. Boring.
• Rigid character progression. Your Type and Focus grant you certain fixed abilities whenever you level up. It's on rails. There are optional rules that let you "customize" this, i.e. swap out one ability for another of your choice, but that's that. You can make up your own foci, of course, but there are no rules governing that in place, and crafting a focus is a lot of work.
• Overly powerful, overly random, and poorly differentiated Cyphers. This is where the real meat of the system is at, and since all characters can use the same cyphers equally well (okay, nanos have one more slot, so yay), this further dilutes the character system. Also cyphers are so common and so powerful that they tend to completely overshadow character abilities: when the rubber hits the road, the characters are digging in their pouches to see who has the cypher that'll magically resolve the problem, instead of figuring out how to collaborate or play tactically to best deal with it.

The upshot is that characters feel very, very samey, except that glaives don't get to do much cool stuff at all. That's fairly broken in my book.

There are also issues with the worldbuilding, but they're intentional design decisions rather than failures, so they're more a matter of taste really. The Numenera setting is a grab-bag of everything jumbled together with no back story or internal logic, with everything explained by hand-waving "prior worlds." That's cool if you want to build a coherent setting of yours from the ingredients, but personally I prefer to do that without the constraints that Numenera does impose.

On the other hand the basic resolution mechanic is brilliant, the idea of Effort is brilliant even if the execution lets it be applied way too broadly and to way too much effect, the super-lightweight (asymmetrical) "monster mechanics" make it extremely quick to make up antagonists on the spot without having to resort to complete hand-waving, there are some neat twists to the combat mechanics e.g. to make fights with hordes of scrubs both more challenging and less cumbersome, and the basic character stats work extremely well; they've been simplified as far as it's possible without entirely losing the point of having stats, while making things easy to manage. The GM intervention mechanic and the use of XP as in-play currency to buy situational benefits are also a lot of fun.

I've run a Numenera campaign for a year or so, but am going to wind it down soon enough and do something different. It does some things brilliantly but the whole is bland and lacking in focus. It wouldn't even be too hard to devise a system that keeps most of the good while dialing the bad back to systems where those things actually worked well.

What I still don't see is how any of the really cool things about the Cypher System could be translated to a computer game. They're only cool because they make it easy to run a tabletop game creatively, both by the player and the GM. A tabletop game benefits greatly from resolution and combat mechanics with minimal arithmetic because that makes the game flow faster, which totally does not apply to a computer game.

 

[roll-a-die]

Hmm excidium, I'd say to that, that that's all a matter of opinion. As someone who's played an autoattack monkey, and is playing one again, I find ways to make it fun.

Numenera isn't about the combat at all, sure it's something that'll come up, but it's more about the strange and interesting world, the mechanics with which you explore it, and finding ways to avoid said combat. I mean the combat rules are simple for a reason, they aren't supposed to be used often. And when they are used, they are meant to resolve quickly in a narrative fashion. There's a reason there's disk one nukes in the form of Cyphers.

AND EVERYTHING PRIMEJUNTA SAID, Dear the stars and skies, he's more rational and less opinionated than anyone I've seen here in awhile. It's a good system, flawed but good.

 

[Infinitron]

PrimeJunta You really can't see how a system of progression that's based on magical items (rather than on the intrinsic character abilities which are very simple) would work in a computer game? Nobody says they would have to be "overly poweful, overly random and poorly differentiated" in the computer game. I also don't know what you mean by "all characters can use the same cyphers equally well" - if a particular cypher has an effect that's more useful for a certain build, then they're not all going to gain equal benefit from it, right?

So, on the contrary, it seems to me that in a computer game, which is a more tightly controlled experience, a system of progression that heavily relies on doling out items might be MORE viable.

tl;dr Numenera is like Diablo? Or maybe like one of these: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ventures-with-rpg-like-characteristics.79107/

 

[Excidium]

On the other hand the basic resolution mechanic is brilliant

Haha what? It's just completely random. It doesn't even matter by how much you beat the difficulty. You either pass or fail and all you can do is reduce the DC. Just toss a coin and save yourself the trouble, goes well with the XP system of the game.

Numenera isn't about the combat at all, sure it's something that'll come up, but it's more about the strange and interesting world, the mechanics with which you explore it, and finding ways to avoid said combat. I mean the combat rules are simple for a reason, they aren't supposed to be used often. And when they are used, they are meant to resolve quickly in a narrative fashion. There's a reason there's disk one nukes in the form of Cyphers.

Combat like the rest of the system is just weak and overly abstracted, not being "about the combat" doesn't really excuse it. P. fitting that this argument is being used in a Torment thread

It's a good system, flawed but good.

I can scarcely call it a system, it's more like the rules people use to LARP Naruto or whatever on forums. P. good if you don't like RPGs and just want some really basic structure and random element for your make believe.

 

[roll-a-die]

On the other hand the basic resolution mechanic is brilliant

Haha what? It's just completely random. It doesn't even matter by how much you beat the difficulty. You either pass or fail and all you can do is reduce the DC. Just toss a coin and save yourself the trouble, goes well with the XP system of the game.

Numenera isn't about the combat at all, sure it's something that'll come up, but it's more about the strange and interesting world, the mechanics with which you explore it, and finding ways to avoid said combat. I mean the combat rules are simple for a reason, they aren't supposed to be used often. And when they are used, they are meant to resolve quickly in a narrative fashion. There's a reason there's disk one nukes in the form of Cyphers.

Combat like the rest of the system is just weak and overly abstracted, not being "about the combat" doesn't really excuse it. P. fitting that this excuse is being used in a Torment thread

It's a good system, flawed but good.

I can scarcely call it a system, it's more like the rules people use to LARP Naruto or whatever on forums. P. good if you don't like RPGs and just want some really basic structure and random element for your make believe.

You know what, if all you have to offer are one line posts basically attempting to deconstruct points without actually explaining your own points. I'm not even going to argue with you. It's just not healthy. Everything you've stated, meaninglessly and derisively, is a matter of opinion, not fact.

You can argue different systems all day, but it doesn't change the ultimate fact, in a previously dying hobby, that is experiencing a small resurgence with the slow death of things like WoW and MMO's in general. There is no one true systematically factually better ruleset. Only the systems that people find preferential.

Here is why I like Numenera, it's quick and fast to play, it enables me as a GM to write plot quickly and efficiently. It allows me as a player to not be burdened down by shitty things like 10 pages of grapple rolls. It allows me as a GM to take my players and do basically anything with them. This is freedom I haven't experienced since Rogue Trader. And that freedom comes without having dozens of tables to memorize. It allows me as a player to come up with a character within 30 seconds of sitting down with the book. A character that is basically guaranteed to be unique from the other characters in the party.

It's basically a more complex version of FATE. Or a less complex version of GURPS. I've acknowledged throughout this thread, that there are flaws in the system. That it is a matter of opinion that I like the system. Now, please quit repeating yourself, acting dismissive and ultimately, as a cardinal rule, quit bitching, unless you have something constructive to say. I've addressed you and others for 3 pages now. Your every comment has been about how bad this system is, yet, strangely, you never go into HOW EXACTLY TO FIX IT.

So here is my challenge, explain how you would fix the system, without copping out, without saying something like, "I'd get rid of it entirely," explain how to make it better or how it could be better in Tides. Infinitron has done this, PrimeJunta has done this. I've explained what's good about the system, as well as what I consider bad about it. Why not you. Otherwise, just quit bitching. It's ultimately useless, and makes you sound, how shall we say, banal, boring, and utterly useless.

 

[Excidium]

You know what, if all you have to offer are one line posts basically attempting to deconstruct points without actually explaining your own points. I'm not even going to argue with you. It's just not healthy. Everything you've stated, meaninglessly and derisively, is a matter of opinion, not fact.

You can argue different systems all day, but it doesn't change the ultimate fact, in a previously dying hobby, that is experiencing a small resurgence with the slow death of things like WoW and MMO's in general. There is no one true systematically factually better ruleset. Only the systems that people find preferential.

Here is why I like Numenera, it's quick and fast to play, it enables me as a GM to write plot quickly and efficiently. It allows me as a player to not be burdened down by shitty things like 10 pages of grapple rolls. It allows me as a GM to take my players and do basically anything with them. This is freedom I haven't experienced since Rogue Trader. And that freedom comes without having dozens of tables to memorize. It allows me as a player to come up with a character within 30 seconds of sitting down with the book. A character that is basically guaranteed to be unique from the other characters in the party.

My posts contain my opinion? Whoa no shit. Should I put a disclaimer on the signature?

Well you can rest assured that I don't give a fuck about what people like or don't. I revile this game and I have already posted why. I am not going to write a fucking essay about it because 1) I don't get paid by word count 2) I've played two sessions of this just to help a friend write a review for the codex and if people are so interested in an opinion piece then they should read the goddamn review.

So here is my challenge, explain how you would fix the system, without copping out, without saying something like, "I'd get rid of it entirely," explain how to make it better or how it could be better in Tides.

Are you dense? How the fuck am I going to fix a system that I dislike down to the basic task resolution without trashing everything? This system is so bad that replacing it with d20 would be an improvement.

 

[PrimeJunta]

PrimeJunta You really can't see how a system of progression that's based on magical items (rather than on the intrinsic character abilities which are very simple) would work in a computer game? Nobody says they would have to be "overly poweful, overly random and poorly differentiated" in the computer game. I also don't know what you mean by "all characters can use the same cyphers equally well" - if a particular cypher has an effect that's more useful for a certain build, then they're not all going to gain equal benefit from it, right?

Not what I was talking about. The things I like best about Numenera are the fast, fluid, and low-arithmetic resolution mechanics (combat and noncombat), GM intervention, and in-play use of XP. None of these are relevant for a cRPG, and some (e.g. the streamlining of combat mechanics to make things flow faster) would make a cRPG worse.

So, on the contrary, it seems to me that in a computer game, which is a more tightly controlled experience, a system of progression that heavily relies on doling out items might be MORE viable.

I agree, cyphers might work better on a computer. I would still prefer a system which allows more meaningful choice and differentiation in character building.

 

[PrimeJunta]

On the other hand the basic resolution mechanic is brilliant

Haha what? It's just completely random. It doesn't even matter by how much you beat the difficulty. You either pass or fail and all you can do is reduce the DC. Just toss a coin and save yourself the trouble, goes well with the XP system of the game.

Most RPG skill checks are pass/fail with randomization.

 

[Infinitron]

I agree, cyphers might work better on a computer. I would still prefer a system which allows more meaningful choice and differentiation in character building.

Well, I'm sure Adam is going to beef up the system for the game, but at the same time, it does look like he's trying to stay true to the spirit of the PnP and make the Cyphers and other Numenera artifacts a very important gameplay element.

Torment: Tides of Numenera - the game that will make CRPG item hoarders weep?

 

[Sensuki]

it's not nearly as bad as all that. Some mechanical things that are fairly broken IMO

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....

 

[PrimeJunta]

I agree, cyphers might work better on a computer. I would still prefer a system which allows more meaningful choice and differentiation in character building.

Well, I'm sure Adam is going to beef up the system for the game, but at the same time, it does look like he's trying to stay true to the spirit of the PnP and make the Cyphers and other Numenera artifacts a very important gameplay element.

Torment: Tides of Numenera - the game that will make CRPG item hoarders weep?

The PnP game isn't particularly hoarder-friendly. Items are disposable; it's use 'em or lose 'em. Cyphers are single-use and you can only carry a very limited amount, and artefacts have depletion rolls which are usually pretty low, d10-d20 is typical. Everything else is cheap and fairly useless.

Sensuki: there's a lot I like in the Cypher System, some of which I like better than any other game system I've played. I.e. it's not the irredeemable mess Excidium makes it out to be, and IMO its flaws would be fixable without re-inventing everything from scratch. AD&D/d20/Pathfinder OTOH are mechanically irredeemably broken; nothing short of a complete ground-up redesign will make them work much better than the bare minimum they do now.

 

[Infinitron]

The PnP game isn't particularly hoarder-friendly.

That's what I'm saying!

 

[Sensuki]

Sensuki: there's a lot I like in the Cypher System, some of which I like better than any other game system I've played. I.e. it's not the irredeemable mess Excidium makes it out to be, and IMO its flaws would be fixable without re-inventing everything from scratch. AD&D/d20/Pathfinder OTOH are mechanically irredeemably broken; nothing short of a complete ground-up redesign will make them work much better than the bare minimum they do now.

I didn't say anything. I just really wanted to use that meme.

 

[StaticSpine]

I just really wanted to use that meme.

 

[Sensuki]

 

[ksaun]

I agree, cyphers might work better on a computer. I would still prefer a system which allows more meaningful choice and differentiation in character building.

Well, I'm sure Adam is going to beef up the system for the game, but at the same time, it does look like he's trying to stay true to the spirit of the PnP and make the Cyphers and other Numenera artifacts a very important gameplay element.

Torment: Tides of Numenera - the game that will make CRPG item hoarders weep?

(Yes, Adam is trying to stay true to the spirit of the PnP, but we are poised to jettison it in any aspect if we can't make the gameplay work for TTON. And Monte Cook is fully supportive of us making any systems adaptations we deem necessary to make the game better. (That said, one of the advantages to licensing Numenera is that it gives us a base system to build off of. While designing new game systems can be very enjoyable, you can find yourself wasting time on silly things like whether to have 3 or 4 stats and what to call them. We know we have three stats and what they are called. =) Saves quite a bit of energy that we can then apply elsewhere. I'd love to design a system from scratch some day, but that's not where we're trying to innovate for TTON.)

From a game systems perspective, the Cypher limit is one of the things we're concerned about. (By "concerned about," I really more mean "keeping an eye on.") They are an attempt to encourage players to use their cool items instead of just hoarding them, but I think it will be challenging to make that encouragement come through as a fun thing and not a frustrating thing. With our limited # of Crises, the opportunities to use Cyphers is also somewhat restricted. (Though we do intend for some to be relevant in Exploration or Conversation, most of the abilities are really more for Crises only.) Having satisfying rewards (i.e., loot) is something that our other design choices probably won't make easy on us. I'm hopeful that our crafting system will help some on this front, but we shall see.)

 

[Infinitron]

ksaun Have you ever programmed in LISP?