Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[ksaun]

ksaun Have you ever programmed in LISP?

It's the language I know (knew) best. As a graduate student, I did some research work on natural language processing systems developed in LISP. (Why do you ask? =) )

 

[Infinitron]

ksaun Have you ever programmed in LISP?

It's the language I know (knew) best. As a graduate student, I did some research work on natural language processing systems developed in LISP. (Why do you ask? =) )

I'm sure you've seen this:

 

[Darth Roxor]

Is this the time of the year again when we discuss how terrible Numenera is?

Because it really is fucking terrible.

 

[Roguey]

While designing new game systems can be very enjoyable, you can find yourself wasting time on silly things like whether to have 3 or 4 stats and what to call them.

This kind of thinking is what separates JE Sawyer from the rest.

 

[tuluse]

While designing new game systems can be very enjoyable, you can find yourself wasting time on silly things like whether to have 3 or 4 stats and what to call them.

This kind of thinking is what separates JE Sawyer from the rest.

But Josh has 6 attributes because that's what AD&D had it's what people expect

 

[Roguey]

But Josh has 6 attributes because that's what AD&D had it's what people expect

That's a reasonable sacrifice. When it comes to new systems it's all

I believe that game designers, whether working in the RPG genre or otherwise, should establish what they want the player to be doing within the world. That is, they must ask themselves what they want the core activities of the player to be. Within those activities, the designer can find ways to allow growth over time in a variety of ways. How they want that growth to occur and what sort of choices they want to force the player to make -- that's what should drive the design of the advancement/RPG system.

Instead it usually seems like most designers sit down and say, "Well what are the ability scores going to be?"

Most designers = Kevin

 

[Excidium]

While designing new game systems can be very enjoyable, you can find yourself wasting time on silly things like whether to have 3 or 4 stats and what to call them.

This kind of thinking is what separates JE Sawyer from the rest.

But Josh has 6 attributes because that's what AD&D had it's what people expect

Oooh snap

 

[Infinitron]

They've licensed an existing PnP ruleset, and as liberal as Monte Cook might be about them changing it, I think he'd prefer if they kept the same stat system. It's a rather iconic aspect of any system, regardless of its actual importance.

 

[Excidium]

More like it would beat the purpose of adapting pre-existing ruleset in the first place. If they changed the stats they'd need to work over the entire system.

 

[Roguey]

More like it would beat the purpose of adapting pre-existing ruleset in the first place. If they changed the stats they'd need to work over the entire system.

They licensed the setting.

I imagine CD Projekt's Cyberpunk is going to look very different from the tabletop system, if they hired enough smart westerners.

 

[Infinitron]

I wasn't aware that you knew the intimate details of inXile's deal with Monte Cook, Roguey.

http://tormentrpg.tumblr.com/post/48932561596/kevin-saunders-on-torments-core-systems

We licensed Numenera not only for the setting, but also to use its systems as a foundation for Torment’s – one of the appeals of Numenera was that we felt its rules were well-suited for computer adaptation for Torment.

 

[Excidium]

More like it would beat the purpose of adapting pre-existing ruleset in the first place. If they changed the stats they'd need to work over the entire system.

They licensed the setting.

But they also decided to use the rules. They could just have used CLASSIC

I imagine CD Projekt's Cyberpunk is going to look very different from the tabletop system, if they hired enough smart westerners.

No shit Roguey, it's an Action RPG. Similarities will probably end on common terminology if there are any.

 

[Roguey]

"Yes, Adam is trying to stay true to the spirit of the PnP, but we are poised to jettison it in any aspect if we can't make the gameplay work for TTON. And Monte Cook is fully supportive of us making any systems adaptations we deem necessary to make the game better."

I'm saying they choooooooooooooose to go this way. They don't necessarily have to.

 

[Nihiliste]

Most designers = Kevin

I know you're being deliberately obnoxious so in that highly unproductive vein
MotB >>> F:NV

 

[tuluse]

I know you're being deliberately obnoxious so in that highly unproductive vein
MotB >>> F:NV

This is no where close to true, but I'm not going to blame anyone for what happens with the Aurora engine.

 

[Excidium]

Most designers = Kevin

I know you're being deliberately obnoxious so in that highly unproductive vein
MotB >>> F:NV

Haha no. FNV has many flaws but at least it isn't a NWN2 module

 

[Nihiliste]

Indeed, it reeked of Fallout 3 instead

 

[Excidium]

Yeah, and even that is more tolerable than NWN2.

 

[roll-a-die]

Yeah, and even that is more tolerable than NWN2.

Within it's Genre, NO! Most explicitly, NO! FO3 is the single worst FPS I've played. NWN2 is just the bad side of mediocre for a third person RPG.

 

[buzz]

I think what everyone is trying to say is: somewhat direct sequel to Fallout 2 >>> sorta spiritual sequel to Planescape Torment
I completely agree

 

[Roguey]

I know you're being deliberately obnoxious so in that highly unproductive vein
MotB >>> F:NV

When it comes to systems and combat content? No.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/47858-mask-of-the-betrayer/page-9#entry801497

Kevin and Avellone and Ferg were quick to prevent me from requesting IWD2-levels of difficulty because they have more sympathy for nubs than I do. And I should make it clear that I didn't tune the combat personally. I made suggestions that were considered by individual designers and either accepted, rejected, or modified based on their best judgment and the goals Kevin thought were appropriate. I think the game difficulty, as tuned by the designers, is interesting but not difficult for me.

FO3 is the single worst FPS I've played.

I've played much worse than New Vegas.

NWN2 is just the bad side of mediocre for a third person RPG.

OTOH, NWN2 and NWN are the worst-feeling wannabe-tactical RPGs I've ever tried playing.

 

[ksaun]

(I believe conventional wisdom is that I'm just supposed to Ignore Roguey posts, but... =) )

While designing new game systems can be very enjoyable, you can find yourself wasting time on silly things like whether to have 3 or 4 stats and what to call them.

This kind of thinking is what separates JE Sawyer from the rest.

Ah, my sentence above was ambiguous. What I meant was, "you can find yourself wasting time discussing silly things like..." The decision itself isn't silly (also, "silly" was probably too flippant of a word choice -- my vocabulary and English skillz aren't quite on par with the likes of Adam, Colin, and George), but debates about it can be unproductive. And due to the passion for their game that many designers have, even if there's a clear owner of such decisions, there's often also more discussion than I think is ideal (from a productivity perspective).

Starting from an established system that has been thought through and playtested, helps to focus the team (and design decisions and discussions) and thus can be advantageous to the overall quality of a game even if a built-from-scratch system would have yielded a stronger pure result. That's all I meant.

(Not that this clarification necessarily changes one's opinion of my earlier statement, but if people are to think me incompetent, I'd prefer it be for my actual failings =), not perceived ones stemming from miscommunications or misunderstandings.)

But Josh has 6 attributes because that's what AD&D had it's what people expect

That's a reasonable sacrifice. When it comes to new systems it's all

I believe that game designers, whether working in the RPG genre or otherwise, should establish what they want the player to be doing within the world. That is, they must ask themselves what they want the core activities of the player to be. Within those activities, the designer can find ways to allow growth over time in a variety of ways. How they want that growth to occur and what sort of choices they want to force the player to make -- that's what should drive the design of the advancement/RPG system.

Instead it usually seems like most designers sit down and say, "Well what are the ability scores going to be?"

Most designers = Kevin

Josh Sawyer is awesome, and I would certainly agree with the statement that he is overall a better systems designer than me. But even so I don't relate to the "most designers" in the quote above and I agree with Josh's opinion on this topic (and many, but not all, others).

(Adam is also awesome at systems design, though it should already have been obvious that I think that.)

 

[StaticSpine]

ksaun

Do you have an approximate date when the alpha systems test starts?

 

[Infinitron]

PART TWO: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/06/19/torment-tides-of-numenera-interview-2/

 

[Sensuki]

Good stuff.