Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[tuluse]

The price you pay for an Overwatch is the price you pay for getting to stay where you are.

You also have to give up initiative. Which can be a big deal.

 

[sser]

The price you pay for an Overwatch is the price you pay for getting to stay where you are.

You also have to give up initiative. Which can be a big deal.

Depends on the system. AP-systems allow you to do a great deal of things before settling down for a reaction-fire. That is to say, more often than not Overwatch takes place after you've already taken the initiative.

But ultimately, yes, you give up an action now for a reaction-shot later. Given how tentative one needs to be in moving parts around, it's rarely a cost at all. One can see that in playing XCOM, which leaned heavily on Overwatch-abuse, or they can see it in the original X-Com where sitting still for a reaction-fire made far more sense than spending the last drops of AP just to move yourself into what might be a world of danger (or someone else's reaction-fire, even).

 

[prodigydancer]

Balance-wise it makes sense for melee AoO's to be free.

Instant attacks never make sense.

The intrinsic cost of AoO is the time/AP it took for you to get to the target.

I call bullshit on that. Just because you spent time getting somewhere doesn't mean that the laws of physics that apply to everyone else suddenly shouldn't apply to you. AoO may have a to hit/damage bonus but it shouldn't be free.

 

[hiver]

It's a lot easier to discuss things if attacks of opportunity are separated from overwatch/reaction fire.

Is it?

And is doing things in ways that seem "easier" always the right answer?

 

[Lord Andre]

Are we arguing semantics or real life ? In most known implementations, AoO is a passive ability that triggers when an opponent runs past you in mellee or runs out of mellee as opposed to retreating in a usually slower fashion. In most known implementations, overwatch must be selected manually at the end of your turn and usually costs AP points.
In most known implementations, there is always a choice between advancing or staying put with reaction fire on, while In most known implementations AoO is free and always there as a sort of frindge benefit.

In most known implementations, AI handles the tool of overwatch better (or at least the illusion is created) than AoO.

Yes, theoretically AoO could be implemented in awesome ways, so can overwatch, theoretically everything is possible but in real life shit don't smell like apple-pie.

 

[prodigydancer]

Are we arguing semantics or real life ? In most known implementations, AoO is a passive ability that triggers when an opponent runs past you in mellee or runs out of mellee as opposed to retreating in a usually slower fashion.

I'm under impression that everyone here already knows how AoO usually works. We're arguing about what is fair and reasonable and what isn't. For instance, I don't think that PoE-style AoO is fair. Any scrub monster who wouldn't score one solid hit on a tank with regular attacks in a million years can instantly deal a huge amount of damage to the same tank with a disengagement attack. Oh, and you cannot "retreat in a slower fashion" because such moves aren't implemented.

 

[Athelas]

For instance, I don't think that PoE-style AoO is fair.

What on earth are you talking about? The most contested thing about PoE's engagement system is its inclusion in a real-time game. T:ToN will be turn-based.

Any scrub monster who wouldn't score one solid hit on a tank with regular attacks in a million years can instantly deal a huge amount of damage to the same tank with a disengagement attack.

Actually, they removed the accuracy bonus of disengagement attacks (which I believe was already reduced during the backer beta) - without listing it in the patch notes.

 

[tuluse]

Depends on the system. AP-systems allow you to do a great deal of things before settling down for a reaction-fire. That is to say, more often than not Overwatch takes place after you've already taken the initiative.

But ultimately, yes, you give up an action now for a reaction-shot later. Given how tentative one needs to be in moving parts around, it's rarely a cost at all. One can see that in playing XCOM, which leaned heavily on Overwatch-abuse, or they can see it in the original X-Com where sitting still for a reaction-fire made far more sense than spending the last drops of AP just to move yourself into what might be a world of danger (or someone else's reaction-fire, even).

Well I suspect X-Com would play quite differently with an overall plan to kill the soldiers instead of just acting randomly.

Obviously, yes in some cases putting overwatch on is no choice at all (do you want some protection or to walk into certain death?). With the ability to intentionally sacrifice weak units or intelligently tank reaction fire, things change a lot.

 

[Ulminati]

Tentative

Not many details to go on though. Except it won't be a continuation of the story (TNOs story is complete), use the same mechanics (2e hopelessly outdated and inXile doesn't have the rights to use DND) or the same setting (ditto).

Still, let's get as many new wave RPGs out there. Better chances one of them won't be awful!

I would like to retract my 2012 statement. Game will be shit

 

[prodigydancer]

The most contested thing about PoE's engagement system is its inclusion in a real-time game. T:ToN will be turn-based.

Let me put it this way: how will AoO help to achieve anything without screwing up the combat? Example: an enemy warrior needs to run past your tank to reach your squishies. The tank cannot deal much damage because he's a tank. Question: will the warrior simply stop and attack the tank or will he ignore the negligible AoO damage and force you to use other control options? Somehow I'd expect the former and this means we have a problem that won't go away just because the game is TB.

 

[Lord Andre]

The most contested thing about PoE's engagement system is its inclusion in a real-time game. T:ToN will be turn-based.

Let me put it this way: how will AoO help to achieve anything without screwing up the combat? Example: an enemy warrior needs to run past your tank to reach your squishies. The tank cannot deal much damage because he's a tank. Question: will the warrior simply stop and attack the tank or will he ignore the negligible AoO damage and force you to use other control options? Somehow I'd expect the former and this means we have a problem that won't go away just because the game is TB.

T:ToN is not supposed to have AoO, it might have a sort of ready-action more akin to overwatch that costs you those attribute dice things that only regenerate when you rest.

That's what started the overwatch/AoO discussion...

 

[sser]

Balance-wise it makes sense for melee AoO's to be free.

Instant attacks never make sense.

A lot of things in games don't make sense. By an equal measure, traipsing past an entire battle line of enemy swords like it's a field of fucking daises is also unrealistic.

The intrinsic cost of AoO is the time/AP it took for you to get to the target.

I call bullshit on that. Just because you spent time getting somewhere doesn't mean that the laws of physics that apply to everyone else suddenly shouldn't apply to you. AoO may have a to hit/damage bonus but it shouldn't be free.

It's not about "laws of physics." It's about balance in game design.

 

[Sensuki]

In a game that has different resource pools for movement and non-movement actions - AoOs are unnecessary.

Overwatch is a feature used in games that focus more on ranged combat, like with guns and shit.

 

[prodigydancer]

A lot of things in games don't make sense. By an equal measure, traipsing past an entire battle line of enemy swords like it's a field of fucking daises is also unrealistic.

Absolutely. That why I said in an earlier post that bonus to hit/dmg for AoO is OK. By all means make it a deterrent. But don't make it free.

 

[Infinitron]

Kevin Saunders‏@SaundersKevin
We (@srdobos) upgraded Torment to use Unity 5. It was nice while it lasted, Unity 4.[5-6]. Take care and we'll remember you fondly. #tton

 

[prodigydancer]

Kevin Saunders‏@SaundersKevin
We (@srdobos) upgraded Torment to use Unity 5. It was nice while it lasted, Unity 4.[5-6]. Take care and we'll remember you fondly. #tton

They already said they would do that when they announced WL2 upgrade to Unity 5. They also confirmed that for TToN the impact would be limited because it's 2.5D:

We started work on Torment before Unity 5’s full feature set was announced. By the time Unity 5 became a known quantity, we had already done much work on the engine for Unity 4. So the benefit of a move to Unity 5 will be limited for Torment. The primary justification for a move to Unity 5 is the new Mecanim system. We’ve put much effort in to the animation of our characters, and the Mecanim upgrades will help organize our complex animation trees.

Unfortunately, all of the cool Deferred Shading tech they released in Unity 5 doesn’t function with an orthographic camera, which Torment uses. So while we’re doing some interesting things graphically, largely thanks to the Pillars of Eternity technology, Torment won’t really benefit from Unity’s graphical enhancements. Sadness.

http://tormentrpg.tumblr.com/post/115124368730/adam-heine-talks-torment-and-unity-5

 

[Abu Antar]

Kevin Saunders‏@SaundersKevin
We (@srdobos) upgraded Torment to use Unity 5. It was nice while it lasted, Unity 4.[5-6]. Take care and we'll remember you fondly. #tton

They already said they would do that when they announced WL2 upgrade to Unity 5. They also confirmed that for TToN the impact would be limited because it's 2.5D:

We started work on Torment before Unity 5’s full feature set was announced. By the time Unity 5 became a known quantity, we had already done much work on the engine for Unity 4. So the benefit of a move to Unity 5 will be limited for Torment. The primary justification for a move to Unity 5 is the new Mecanim system. We’ve put much effort in to the animation of our characters, and the Mecanim upgrades will help organize our complex animation trees.

Unfortunately, all of the cool Deferred Shading tech they released in Unity 5 doesn’t function with an orthographic camera, which Torment uses. So while we’re doing some interesting things graphically, largely thanks to the Pillars of Eternity technology, Torment won’t really benefit from Unity’s graphical enhancements. Sadness.

http://tormentrpg.tumblr.com/post/115124368730/adam-heine-talks-torment-and-unity-5

It's better than nothing.

 

[Infinitron]

I know they said it, but now they've done it.

 

[Morgoth]

Inevitable Xbox One/PS4 port confirmed implied.

 

[DosBuster]

Just letting you guys know about this:

It also seems he's quite serious about it as well.

 

[Rivmusique]

Got to spend that Kickstarter $ somewhere.

 

[sser]

A lot of things in games don't make sense. By an equal measure, traipsing past an entire battle line of enemy swords like it's a field of fucking daises is also unrealistic.

Absolutely. That why I said in an earlier post that bonus to hit/dmg for AoO is OK. By all means make it a deterrent. But don't make it free.

If anything, it basically has to be free and instantaneous if the game is RTWP. How else would you take advantage of it? If it's just a damage boost, by the time you can apply the damage the guy is already gone, having walked right past you. Hence the name, Attack of Opportunity, because if immediate action isn't taken then the time to do anything has already passed you by. (Unless the game is legitimately real-time with instant actions and frame canceling and all the things that come with it, but that's obviously not going to be the case.) With turn-based, the usual solution was that it gave your opponent a free hit if you decided to chance it. Alternatively, like in Temple of the Elemental Evil which IMO has one of the best implementations of a combat system, you could do a 5-step move that was AP-heavy, but it got you away from trouble. I'm not sure you can make such an application in real-time, so the best solution that I can think of is just a quick punishment. The only time AoO bothered me in PilloE was when I walked the wrong way and initiated a machinegun of AoO's. That happened exactly once, but otherwise the mechanic works pretty much as advertised and I don't really see a discernible difference from its turn-based application. My only issue is that the counter-disengagement stuff is almost entirely passive instead of active. I'd be very interested if someone can think of a better way of putting AoO's into the system, though.

 

[Sensuki]

The concept simply doesn't work (and isn't required at all) in real-time which is why you basically have to resign to saying "it has to be free and instantaneous". Think about what you're saying.

"Zone of Control" style bullshit can be done in real-time, but AoO's is the most retarded way to do it (as it's just copy pasta a turn-based system lmao).

Didn't you yourself say you prefer threat-based systems? They work in real-time. I hate them because I hate anything systemic that takes away the control of my character(s) (other than spells like charm/fear/confusion etc). But they do work.

AoOs simply should not have ever been included in real-time games. There are plenty of better ways to do the same thing that aren't flawed by design.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Just letting you guys know about this:

It also seems he's quite serious about it as well.

Always took Colin for more of a Wil Wheaton man.

 

[Zed]

anything to bring more bald men on board
#truesocialjustice