Game News Torment: Tides of Numenera Released

[Excidium II]

In all honestly seems most people are doing weird hot takes on the game's sales and the actual quality of it
First off even though I was a backer I am kind of used to release games beign buggy so I rather wait for a couple of patches before trying a game out
Second, this might sound storyfaggy here but I rather be on the proper state of mind and have time to read hundreds of texts
Third, it does matter that Nintendo just released a new Zelda, my girlfriend just picked her Switch up and I can already tell from her squeals and "Oh can you do that?" That is going to pretty much take all out gameplaying time for a couple of weeks
And lastly, yep I consider myself a combatfag first and foremost and to my eyes most RPG gamers have that proclivity too, we rather just enjoy the game than read screens filled with text...how fucking Fargo though that the console crowd would go for a text heavy game like this is kind of crazy but oh well
I see the game selling twice the kickstarter pledges easily between releae and the first 2 weeks and maybe even doing 300k in six months but this was always supposed to be a niche game ffs

replay pst instead.

 

[Ismaul]

So you're telling me PnP D&D's combat system is RTwP? How dumb are you?

Correct me if I am wrong, but RTwP DnD is a system based on rolls, but computer calculates them faster. Thus, the rules are DnD, but you dont need to manually calculate them and you can play in RT.

I see you haven't ever played any PnP RPG. Or even turn based cRPGs?

Turn based is not slowed down real-time just so we can calculate rolls. Hell some people play PnP with a pre-rolled sheet of results, at least some game masters do to accelerate things. Turn based is not an artifact of low tech, there are PnP RPGs that are phase-based, were every character acts simultaneously. And you know what, the rules and systems are different to accomodate that.

D&D's systems were made for turn based. Initiative, who acts first, changes a lot. Win it, and you can position yourself advantageously or down the enemies before they know you're here and without them being able to react. If you're a thief/rogue/stealthing/have a feat/class feature, you might get an extra turn or half-turn to do so, catching the enemy flat-footed, and dealing therefore much more damage or gaining some other advantage depending on build. A good RT system instead would have animation times for actions, as that is what's appropriate for it. But RTwP D&D uses some defined round duration, a one size fits all "cooldown" for all actions, trying to badly emulate the PnP (which is why some morons call Infinity engine games "turn" based). You don't see your character doing his attacks, he looks like he's doing one but he might be doing four, because they had to fit it all in the "round". Characters get locked into their round actions. Things happening out of your turn (interrupts, reactions) are also weirdly implemented, notably attacks of opportunity.

Not only that, but many character features were made to take advantage of when you act, which cannot be translated to RTwP. 2nd edition is far in my mind, but 3rd had implemented those features into feats that gave you more initiative, allowed you to take an extra action in certain circumstances, interrupts, reactions, all of which had to be gutted for RTwP. How would you implement in RTwP for example a feature that gave you a move action on certain triggers, such as if someone closed on you, or failed an attack? The rules just don't adapt.

Also, RTwP is a clusterfuck, and that is because it implements a system made for giving complex instructions about how your one character is going to act, while giving you a whole party of characters. The rules were designed for you having a certain time to decide what to do, and that is impossible in real-time, all options being in multiples menus, so they had to add the pause abomination as a main combat mechanic for you to be able to give instructions, and add an AI that can just play the game on its own because you can't just pause every milisecond to give a command to everyone of them dudes. Even with those shit patches, it still is very far from what D&D is.

Plus, because RTwP is a clusterfuck, and you can't have tactical positioning, you get shit like no friendly fire for attacks/AoEs. This is why they went with it for Tyranny for example. RTwP brings by its own nature a dumbing down of turn based mechanics, and therefore a dumbing down of available tactics, instead of creating ones adapted to RT.

All that, and I haven't covered it at all yet.

 

[hpstg]

Reading this thread kind of makes me glad that my peasant setup is not working.

 

[Fenix]

Thanks Ismaul, your post was very informative for me about differences between RTwP and turn-based modes.
I think I need to bookmark it.

 

[felipepepe]

RTwP brings by its own nature a dumbing down of turn based mechanics, and therefore a dumbing down of available tactics, instead of creating ones adapted to RT.

Great post, but I would just like to point out there are exceptions, such as 7.62 High Caliber.

They designed a tactical shooter from the ground up around RTwP, making it a highly complex system based on the time each action takes. So instead of shooting a gun taking 5 action points, it takes like 2.5 seconds. And all actions are happening simultaneously. So every single second matters, and the difference between taking 2 seconds to ready & fire a pistol or 3 seconds to ready & fire a shotgun can mean the enemy shot you in that 1 second and you're dead.

This manages to solve one of TB's combat biggest issues: attacks of opportunity.

 

[Bumvelcrow]

All that, and I haven't covered it at all yet.

Have you thought of turning that post into an article? It would be well worth reading.

 

[l3loodAngel]

So you're telling me PnP D&D's combat system is RTwP? How dumb are you?

Correct me if I am wrong, but RTwP DnD is a system based on rolls, but computer calculates them faster. Thus, the rules are DnD, but you dont need to manually calculate them and you can play in RT.

I see you haven't ever played any PnP RPG. Or even turn based cRPGs?

You got me there. No turn based game was ever played by muh.

Turn based is not slowed down real-time just so we can calculate rolls. Hell some people play PnP with a pre-rolled sheet of results, at least some game masters do to accelerate things. Turn based is not an artifact of low tech, there are PnP RPGs that are phase-based, were every character acts simultaneously. And you know what, the rules and systems are different to accomodate that.

How retarded are you? I have never said such thing, nor I meant anything even remotely close to what you said. I said that in RT system the game calculates rolls faster based on the TB rules. That's a very important point, because so called developers decided to forget about iron clad rules that drive DnD system (rolls and other stuff) and for that reason we are flooded with MMO/MOBA/DAO type game RTwP systems.

D&D's systems were made for turn based.

No shit. It was also made to be played in basement by cosplaying virgins. Doesn't mean that there no other ways to play.

Initiative, who acts first, changes a lot. Win it, and you can position yourself advantageously or down the enemies before they know you're here and without them being able to react. If you're a thief/rogue/stealthing/have a feat/class feature, you might get an extra turn or half-turn to do so, catching the enemy flat-footed, and dealing therefore much more damage or gaining some other advantage depending on build. A good RT system instead would have animation times for actions, as that is what's appropriate for it. But RTwP D&D uses some defined round duration, a one size fits all "cooldown" for all actions, trying to badly emulate the PnP (which is why some morons call Infinity engine games "turn" based). You don't see your character doing his attacks, he looks like he's doing one but he might be doing four, because they had to fit it all in the "round". Characters get locked into their round actions. Things happening out of your turn (interrupts, reactions) are also weirdly implemented, notably attacks of opportunity.

Now you should wave your hands, speak loudly and use other theatrics to greatly exaggerate the effect.

Plus, because RTwP is a clusterfuck, and you can't have tactical positioning, you get shit like no friendly fire for attacks/AoEs. This is why they went with it for Tyranny for example. RTwP brings by its own nature a dumbing down of turn based mechanics, and therefore a dumbing down of available tactics, instead of creating ones adapted to RT.

All that, and I haven't covered it at all yet.

Bullshit. Not true. Garbage. WRONG! Again you dont have a fucking clue what is a combat system and what is game design. They went for it in tyrrany (dumbing down), because they a had misconception that they will increase their audience by dumbing down and screwing their core +25-30 old fags who donated to KS. Didn't happen.

Listen you want to be standard bearer for TB, go for it and write an article. Just leave me out of it.

 

[Invictus]

Bloodangel
Dont even try it man, Ismaul schooled your ass with one of the best written explications of Turn Based vs Real Time with Pause so take it like a man and just drop the conversation

 

[Ismaul]

l3loodAngel
So you ask me to correct you, and now you're butthurt?

You said that RTwP D&D was "solid D&D". I showed you how the D&D rules were changed to adapt them to RTwP, modifying the combat experience and even having negative consequences on available tactics. Ergo, not "solid D&D". Can't be simpler than that.

I'll leave you alone since it's too much for you to handle.

 

[Black]

EDGEANGEL ON SUICIDE WATCH

 

[Ismaul]

Great post, but I would just like to point out there are exceptions, such as 7.62 High Caliber.

They designed a tactical shooter from the ground up around RTwP

I haven't played that game, but I agree in theory (I haven't played any statisfying RTwP game). When you choose a system, be it RT, RTwP, or TB, you should know its strengths and weaknesses and design accordingly. There can be good games made with all systems, as long as you don't try to shoehorn the design made for one system into one that has different strengths.

Have you thought of turning that post into an article? It would be well worth reading.

I haven't. I don't have the pretention that I know more than others on this. Those are all arguments that have been stated many times on the Codex. But I have indeed been here a long time, so maybe it is worth restating. Not sure I'm the right person to do it though since I really dislike RTwP, and prefer the usually superior TB or RT systems. (Also, I'm a bit busy atm, I have to no-life this month to finish the first part of my masters in time to not delay my studies by 6 months. Maybe after, I'll have to put some effort into this.)

 

[Bumvelcrow]

I haven't. I don't have the pretention that I know more than others on this.

If it's an opinion, backed up by some evidence, and well thought out and readable, that immediately elevates into interesting territory. If you do get the chance to write something substantial then I'll look forward to reading it.

 

[Florian Gheorghe]

The music from the Bloom is one of the best instrumental "songs" in recent years. It's an extraordinary piece of electronic sounds put together, and along with the writing and interesting parts all over the place I have to say I don't want it to ever end. Great job, this, right here is the essence of Torment, the very souls of it!

BTW: someone said that TTON has no humor, I think it was on steam forums, it's not true, it has, but it's more of a dark humor.

 

[Sacred82]

BTW: someone said that TTON has no humor, I think it was on steam forums, it's not true, it has, but it's more of a dark humor.

> Erritis
> dark humour

 

[Sacred82]

It's far from superficial considering that 90+% of the playtime is spent on reading and the text has very serious issues with bloat and purple prose.

more like 10% once you figure out you can just click past most of it (which happens early)

it's another of those cases where devs say "our game is only for peope who like to read", and then you can just skip all the text without any consequences. Keyword dialogue, bitches.

 

[l3loodAngel]

l3loodAngel
So you ask me to correct you, and now you're butthurt?

You said that RTwP D&D was "solid D&D". I showed you how the D&D rules were changed to adapt them to RTwP, modifying the combat experience and even having negative consequences on available tactics. Ergo, not "solid D&D". Can't be simpler than that.

I'll leave you alone since it's too much for you to handle.

You missed the point, again. You dont understand me.

And it is. I never said that it wansn't modified. But that's normal as some things work in RT and some things don't. BUT AT IT'S CORE it is a solid DnD system. Unless you are willing to go into debate that DnD is defined by "extra turn/half turn and reactions". Initiative on the other hand is more of the TB machanic as most TB games have it. Ergo, you didn't prove that it's not a solid DnD, it is purely your opinion. If it's so simple why do you keep missing the point?

Try at least to not miss the point to save us both time.

EDIT. You thought that by solid DnD I meant unchaged DnD. I never meant it. What I meant by solid system was that it's strong, substancial, reliablem, tough etc. system.

 

[Ismaul]

You missed the point, again. You dont understand me.
And it is. I never said that it wansn't modified. But that's normal as some things work in RT and some things don't. BUT AT IT'S CORE it is a solid DnD system.

I'll indulge you. So, what is a "solid D&D system", if you can replace its combat mechanics with a different system, even if most mechanics in D&D are tailored to its combat system? Would you say it is still solid D&D if we removed the class system and made it skill-based? Because that change is of the same magnitude as stripping out turn based.

Initiative on the other hand is more of the TB machanic as most TB games have it.

so called developers decided to forget about iron clad rules that drive DnD system (rolls and other stuff) and for that reason we are flooded with MMO/MOBA/DAO type game RTwP systems.

So in your opinion, D&D's system is "rolls and other stuff"? But by your own argument, "rolls and other stuff" are used by most PnP RPGs. How then are those what make D&D D&D?


Let me make it clearer. Turn based systems are not just a cosmetic layer on rolls and rules. They are the core combat mechanic on which character features and actions are designed. They are the rules upon which the other rules are built to interact with. In turn based systems, you have an alloted amount of actions you can take before others have to act. In D&D, you usually have a main action, a move action, and a minor action and/or a reaction (depending on editions). You have to plan ahead, because when your turn is over, then everybody acts before you act again. That means if you left yourself in an exposed position, you most likely will get fucked by all your adversaries. So positioning is extremely important, as is the ability to disable others, use cover/conceal yourself, and plan ahead with the rest of your party (who does what and when). You've got all those combat actions/mechanics built around that, such as delaying, readying actions/overwatch, replacing a main action with a move, reactions, etc.

Real time doesn't work like that, because if you realize you're getting fucked, you can just pull out right away after the animation of your action finishes (and even then the game might have implemented cancelling actions). Readying and delaying make no sense there. If you realize you need healing, you don't have to wait until it's your healer's turn, tense because your fighter might die any moment, you just heal right away. Cursed/poisoned/etc.? Remove it now before you suffer its effects. The economy of actions is completely different. Because of that, the balance has to be different. And class features, weapons, and choosable talents have to be different too, because their way of interacting with the moment to moment gameplay in combat is different. That is why, btw, Arcanum's combat systems were inevitably going to fail, trying to do both.

Now real time has strengths that can't be had by TB. It's perfect for systems that require you to react moment to moment to what your opponents are doing. Manually blocking and dodging are things that are possible, but make no sense in a TB system. Those are strengths that are used by the Gothics and Dark Souls, for example.

See how the combat system influences design?

 

[l3loodAngel]

snip..

You're a retard. Go fuck yourself.

Edit. After all of these TB masterpieces like TB Arcanum, Numenera and etc. You imbeciles still have the audacity to preach of some inherent TB superiority? Your head is so high up your ass even doctors wont reach it.

OK, you play that TB combat and I will play BG2 RTwP combat. OR that retarded RT twitch based shit is better than RTwP, because it's somehow pure? I know where this vomit is comming from, but I wont eat it. Bon Appétit!

 

[Invictus]

snip..

You're a retard. Go fuck yourself.

Edit. After all of these TB masterpieces like TB Arcanum, Numenera and etc. You imbeciles still have the audacity to preach of some inherent TB superiority? Your head is so high up your ass even doctors wont reach it.

OK, you play that TB combat and I will play BG2 RTwP combat. OR that retarded RT twitch based shit is better than RTwP, because it's somehow pure? I know where this vomit is comming from, but I wont eat it. Bon Appétit!

What is it with these idiots who refuse to face reality and when they come up with these retarded ideas they keep digging in deeper instead of just saying "mmm never thought of it that way" and just walking away?
But nooo they resort to name calling and ranting like children
I kind of pity them really, reality must be kind of a living hell since it doesnt adapt to what they think it is even thought they are RIGHT dammit!
And just for the sake of argument show me ONE rtwp game that is superior to an averge combat on a Turn Based game like say Wasteland 2

 

[l3loodAngel]

snip..

You're a retard. Go fuck yourself.

Edit. After all of these TB masterpieces like TB Arcanum, Numenera and etc. You imbeciles still have the audacity to preach of some inherent TB superiority? Your head is so high up your ass even doctors wont reach it.

OK, you play that TB combat and I will play BG2 RTwP combat. OR that retarded RT twitch based shit is better than RTwP, because it's somehow pure? I know where this vomit is comming from, but I wont eat it. Bon Appétit!

What is it with these idiots who refuse to face reality and when they come up with these retarded ideas they keep digging in deeper instead of just saying "mmm never thought of it that way" and just walking away?
But nooo they resort to name calling and ranting like children
I kind of pity them really, reality must be kind of a living hell since it doesnt adapt to what they think it is even thought they are RIGHT dammit!
And just for the sake of argument show me ONE rtwp game that is superior to an averge combat on a Turn Based game like say Wasteland 2

Almost any? HA ha ha, you must be kidding. I have had 0 satisfaction from WL2 combat. It wasn't strategic on any level. Starting from running anywhere without punishment at the beggining of the combat, to almost unlimited walking during rounds. The combat had no aimed shots. FO had infinitely more strategy and tactics involved. The convoluted statistics due to poor character system, which was overcrowded nightmare to use... I am glad that you enjoyed it.

 

[Invictus]

snip..

You're a retard. Go fuck yourself.

Edit. After all of these TB masterpieces like TB Arcanum, Numenera and etc. You imbeciles still have the audacity to preach of some inherent TB superiority? Your head is so high up your ass even doctors wont reach it.

OK, you play that TB combat and I will play BG2 RTwP combat. OR that retarded RT twitch based shit is better than RTwP, because it's somehow pure? I know where this vomit is comming from, but I wont eat it. Bon Appétit!

What is it with these idiots who refuse to face reality and when they come up with these retarded ideas they keep digging in deeper instead of just saying "mmm never thought of it that way" and just walking away?
But nooo they resort to name calling and ranting like children
I kind of pity them really, reality must be kind of a living hell since it doesnt adapt to what they think it is even thought they are RIGHT dammit!
And just for the sake of argument show me ONE rtwp game that is superior to an averge combat on a Turn Based game like say Wasteland 2

Almost any? HA ha ha, you must be kidding. I have had 0 satisfaction from WL2 combat. It wasn't strategic on any level. Starting from running anywhere without punishment at the beggining of the combat, to almost unlimited walking during rounds. The combat had no aimed shots. FO had infinitely more strategy and tactics involved. The convoluted statistics due to poor character system, which was overcrowded nightmare to use... I am glad that you enjoyed it.

So then given your superior taste, obviously magnificent intelectual prowess and argumentation it would be easier to name a better Rtwp based game... yet you didn't bub either because you are still talking out of your ass as Isamul proved to you and you are all out of bullshit... OR once again you missed the point of BACKING your shit up or end up looking like even more of a pompus idiot that you are
And why even bring up Fallout?
Are you retarded or is that somehow Rtwp to you?

 

[Tramboi]

If you have 70k base (plus lengthy early access), out of which only 10% bothers to boot up the game on the launch date, that tells something about the level of their "eager anticipation".

If you have a life, money, and games, it's quite dumb to play a RPG day-one, isn't it ?
It will be patched 7 times.

 

[l3loodAngel]

snip..

You're a retard. Go fuck yourself.

Edit. After all of these TB masterpieces like TB Arcanum, Numenera and etc. You imbeciles still have the audacity to preach of some inherent TB superiority? Your head is so high up your ass even doctors wont reach it.

OK, you play that TB combat and I will play BG2 RTwP combat. OR that retarded RT twitch based shit is better than RTwP, because it's somehow pure? I know where this vomit is comming from, but I wont eat it. Bon Appétit!

What is it with these idiots who refuse to face reality and when they come up with these retarded ideas they keep digging in deeper instead of just saying "mmm never thought of it that way" and just walking away?
But nooo they resort to name calling and ranting like children
I kind of pity them really, reality must be kind of a living hell since it doesnt adapt to what they think it is even thought they are RIGHT dammit!
And just for the sake of argument show me ONE rtwp game that is superior to an averge combat on a Turn Based game like say Wasteland 2

Almost any? HA ha ha, you must be kidding. I have had 0 satisfaction from WL2 combat. It wasn't strategic on any level. Starting from running anywhere without punishment at the beggining of the combat, to almost unlimited walking during rounds. The combat had no aimed shots. FO had infinitely more strategy and tactics involved. The convoluted statistics due to poor character system, which was overcrowded nightmare to use... I am glad that you enjoyed it.

So then given your superior taste, obviously magnificent intelectual prowess and argumentation it would be easier to name a better Rtwp based game... yet you didn't bub either because you are still talking out of your ass as Isamul proved to you and you are all out of bullshit... OR once again you missed the point of BACKING your shit up or end up looking like even more of a pompus idiot that you are
And why even bring up Fallout?
Are you retarded or is that somehow Rtwp to you?

they should change this tag to Village Idiot tag to inform people properly. I am not sure what you intellectual bottom feeders think you proved or to whom, but today I am too lazy to go point by point so I will leave it at that. You want a better RTwP game/games: BG1-2, IWD 1-2, KOTOR 2 and etc. Now Raúl take that leaf blower and go outside to play.

 

[Darth Roxor]

the best tb games are significantly better than the best rtwp games

but i would say the worst tb games are also worse than the worst rtwp games

 

[Invictus]

You are not only lazy my little hombre you are simply stupid and sooo butthurt it is not even funny... where are your arguments now? Oh come on you copy pasted some cool sounding games from the Codex top 50 or what?
Back up your shit kiddie not just throw a tantrum and go away
As for blowing stuff, yeah I believe you have got me beat on that, guessing that Bloodangel most have something to do with your mouth and ass after you visit your local glory hole
Mmm maybe that explains why you keep coming back to say stupid shit, you actually like getting put down boy