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Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
:M https://www.pcgamesn.com/torment-tides-of-numenera/torment-tides-of-numenera-sales

Torment: Tides of Numenera's sales have been "disappointing" - but why?

torment%20tides%20of%20numenera%20sales_0.png


It is February, 2017, and respected fantasy author Pat Rothfuss is livestreaming Torment: Tides of Numenera. Viewers are watching him play through the earliest scenes of the isometric RPG, for which he has written an inspired companion character. But you would be hard pressed to know he was playing at all.

Sometimes Rothfuss clicks to move his character through the world - until a paragraph of descriptive prose pops up. When that happens he falls silent to read. Occasionally, he chuckles. During these long moments, of which there are many, the screen is almost totally static.

“It couldn’t have been more dull,” inXile head Brian Fargo laments. “I love Patrick, I love the game, but that’s not fun to watch.”

The fact that Tides of Numenera is not exactly a spectator sport might go some way to explaining why this 9/10 RPG will not bother Steam’s top-seller list for this year.

torment%20tides%20of%20numenera%20brian%20fargo.png


“I would honestly say that Torment has been disappointing sales-wise,” Fargo tells us. “There are some reasons for that, some of which are our fault, and others... let’s just say that a game with a lot of reading is not very much fun to watch on Twitch. I’m not laying it just on that. There are a lot of different dynamics at work… [but] that is an important medium for getting the word out.”

In our review, I wondered whether Torment: Tides of Numenera had a pacing problem. It was a game that finally fulfilled the RPG genre’s promise of making combat wholly optional. But in doing so, it broke a traditional loop: one that intersperses dense chunks of storytelling with fighting and derring-do. Torment’s writing, sublime though it was, taxed the imagination - and offered very little else as respite.

“I believe the combat system was not fulfilling enough, that core loop,” Fargo says. “Reading cannot be the core loop, and that ended up being what that was.”

torment%20tides%20of%20numenera%20combat.png


That problem was one that emerged from inXile’s experimentation in the genre - a side effect of trying to push things forward. But there were other issues they might have seen coming earlier. Tides of Numenera was pitched as a spiritual successor to an underappreciated classic, Planescape: Torment. Perhaps that underappreciation should have rung alarm bells.

“Planescape: Torment wasn’t a huge hit either,” Fargo recalls. He should know: he ran the publisher that bore the brunt of its lacklustre sales. And the release of Beamdog’s Enhanced Edition in April this year proved a timely reminder.

“That didn’t exactly light up the charts, and that was a great title,” Fargo says. “Planescape: Torment has a 91% Metacritic, but it didn’t sell a ton of units - not what it deserved to. I think there’s something to that.”

torment%20tides%20of%20numenera%20inxile.png


There is certainly a gulf between those who say they are interested in Torment, and those who actually play it. That might sound like conjecture, but inXile have noticed that “hundreds of thousands” of Steam users still have Tides of Numenera wishlisted. That is why, this week, they cut the game’s price to less than half to see what happens.

“I think this will probably get them off the fence, because it’s not going lower than that,” Fargo says. “I hope they’ll appreciate it for what it is. From an artistic perspective, I think it has to be recognised for being pretty damn good. The writing was great, we had some wonderful characters. So I’m not embarrassed by the title in any way. But it couldn’t have been more un-mainstream.

“It’ll keep selling. Over time it’ll keep going, and going, and going. And we’re proud to have it in our catalogue. But as far as comparing sales to our other titles, I wish it had done more.”

torment%20tides%20of%20numenera%20story.png


The lessons learned from Tides of Numenera will inform inXile games in the future. For Wasteland 3 they will “change the dials” - focusing less on descriptive passages and more on banter between characters. Fargo’s new favourite writer is Taylor Sheridan, who wrote two sharp screenplays for Sicario and Hell or High Water.

As for the future of the Torment series - Tides of Numenera is probably destined to remain an odd artefact, like one of those you might pick up in the Ninth World. Wondrous, unique, and possibly a little bit dangerous for those who dare to handle it.

“It feels like a one-off, sitting here now,” Fargo admits. “But you might have said that about Planescape: Torment too.”
 

FeelTheRads

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Well, circular logic or how do you call this? Yeah, if it was something to play on Twitch then sure, it would have probably sold better. But then, this wasn't the style of game suited for that in the first place and it's not like you can't sell better than they did without Twitch.

But you got to find something to blame if you don't want to blame the game itself, right? And maybe piracy can't be blamed this time... I'm guessing the torrents for this don't draw huge numbers either so they can't claim that they lost millions of sales because of it.
 

FeelTheRads

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I don't know... he seems to think more combat would've done it. Same thing MCA brought up regarding PST.
I disagree. Reading was also the "core loop" in PST. Maybe not to the same extent, but the difference is not that big to make a sensible difference. But, as a PST fag, I was able to replay it several times without skipping much if any reading (it's just too fucking good), while in TTON in one playthrough I was already skipping heavily in the last third or so. And I can't imagine I'll ever bother replaying it.
And back to the combat. No, not more. Better. More only if it's also better.

And, btw, who made the promise, on behalf of the RPG genre, of making combat wholly optional?
 

fobia

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Obviously Pat Rothfuss was the problem. People were pissed because while they were still waiting for the continuation of his Kingkiller Chronicle, he was playing a decent-ish game on Twitch.
So TToN got all the hate. Mystery solved...

The part where they admit fault on their side should be the major part of such interviews, not a sidenote that is immediately followed by a statement of how great this game is besides maybe the combat.

Also:

Fargo’s new favourite writer is Taylor Sheridan, who wrote two sharp screenplays for Sicario and Hell or High Water.

At first I thought this guy was working at InXile and replaced Fargo's old favorite writer, whoever that was. :D
 

undecaf

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
he seems to think more combat would've done it. Same thing MCA brought up regarding PST.
I disagree.

I disagree with that too.

I think they overcompensated all gameplay with text. There was just too little to do between all the reading.
 

Lacrymas

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The difference is that PS:T is good. It might not have mainstream appeal, and it certainly showed that, but it's incredibly good as a niche title that also stood the test of time and will probably remain as a classic going forward. Numanuma died the moment it was released.
 

undecaf

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
Same exact thing can be said about Planescape.

PST still had its trashmobs. Bane as they were designwise, they still cut through the text bits and gave the player a bit more to think about whilst not reading dialog. That's what they didn't take into account and address with T:ToN in my experience.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
PS:T also gives you all sorts of AD&D knobs to play around with between conversations, even if you don't really need to.

T:ToN is more intentional about conveying "This is an adventure game type of thing, not a full RPG, just click on the NPCs". In that respect it's more similar to the Shadowrun games than to the other $45 "AA" RPGs that have been released in recent years, and perhaps it would have done better if it was a $25 game developed in <2 years.
 

IHaveHugeNick

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I think he realizes that they simply went too far with the whole "book that's also a game" thing. It's not just about combat either, it's that all of the systems don't create any synergy. For example, discovering the purpose of all the various artifacts could have been great fun, but instead it seemed like a pointless filler, because so what if you have 5000 gizmos if there's 6 fights in the entire game where you can use them? Why bother with upgrading your gear, comparing numbers, figuring out the best builds? Or the way artificats feed into more points. You spend points in a minigame, get an arficat that gives you more points to win more minigames. It's just meh.

I actually genuinely enjoyed Sagus Cliffs but even I got bored as the game went on.
 

Roguey

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That is why, this week, they cut the game’s price to less than half to see what happens.

“I think this will probably get them off the fence, because it’s not going lower than that,” Fargo says.

:hmmm:

Really? No >$10 sales?

(not that it would do much good since only hundreds could even be bothered to play it when it was free)

It’ll keep selling.

Fargo getting his Todd Howard on.
 

IHaveHugeNick

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They priced it too high to begin with. 5$ more than WL2 may not seem like much, but to people on the fence 39,99 feels like 30 while 45 feels like 50.
 

Roguey

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They priced it too high to begin with. 5$ more than WL2 may not seem like much, but to people on the fence 39,99 feels like 30 while 45 feels like 50.

The amount of difference this makes is negligible given what it is.

Like it wouldn't have made the difference between break even/loss. It's going to be a loss regardless.
 

Malpercio

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PS:T also gives you all sorts of AD&D knobs to play around with between conversations, even if you don't really need to.

T:ToN is more intentional about conveying "This is an adventure game type of thing, not a full RPG, just click on the NPCs". In that respect it's more similar to the Shadowrun games than to the other $45 "AA" RPGs that have been released, and perhaps it would have done better if it was a $25 game developed in <2 years.

Content is also far more spaced in Planescape, it's something I noticed while replaying it. The only place with similar NPCs density is Upper Sigil.

But the fact is, Planescape isn't overwritten, Numenera is. Talking to the NPCs in Planescape is a pleasure, in Numenera isn't. Planescape's setting is weird, but it's oddly cohesive, so you enjoy learning more about it. Numenera's setting is just a mess in which anything goes.

ToN is basically Planescape by people that either didn't understand Planescape or simply could only deliver a bland copy.
 

Iznaliu

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I disagree. Reading was also the "core loop" in PST. Maybe not to the same extent, but the difference is not that big to make a sensible difference. But, as a PST fag, I was able to replay it several times without skipping much if any reading (it's just too fucking good), while in TTON in one playthrough I was already skipping heavily in the last third or so. And I can't imagine I'll ever bother replaying it.
And back to the combat. No, not more. Better. More only if it's also better.

It's not like PS:T was a great seller either, despite near-universal acclaim inside and outside the Codex.
 

fantadomat

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I'm having a blast with the game. This time I managed to become a Memovira and get all the merecasters. This is my 3rd play and have seen a lot of reactivity. I do hope they will iron out the bugs left.
Such a nice paladin of fabulousness,hope you enjoy life as much as you enjoy the game!
 

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