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Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I hadn't play since TW:Warhammer 1, and I must confess the Warriors of Chaos campaign is much better now in TW3(Immortal Empires).
No more 250 enemy agents each rolling the dice to murder your lords every turn, and submitting other chaos factions to submission is actually fun, while playilg whack a mole with settlements that would be rebuilt was pretty frustrating before.

But with the gifts of chaos, it feels like Warriors of Chaos get all the roster from the daemon factions on top of their existing units? Is there a point to playing daemons over WoC? It must seriously lack variety.
 

Reina

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Yes, like I said, the chariots are good, but that's it, everything else relies on N'Kari being in the army (unless you have another very high level lord that can provide the same army bonuses, but again you've already won the game at that point). Slaanesh's economy being ok-ish only when you have an (extreme) artificial control malus is not a good look. You can, of course, eventually do well with every faction and every lord, but comparing the daemons to almost everyone else reveals their problems. Daniel's faction is the weakest of them all imo, but dwarfs, Kislev, Ogre Kingdoms are all even worse than the monogod factions, sure.

Strong disagree, I played Slaanesh campaign two times already, and had a blast both times. He suffer a bit late game, but generally Slaaneshi armies are very strong, with mobile and durable infantry at the core. And I didn't even use chariots much, if at all. Their magic is strong too, especially since cheap/spammable spells are now even more useful than large-scale damage spells which dominated in WH2.

Do mind, I play at VH/N, maybe difficulty buffs make Slaaneshi units weaker compared to other factions.
 

Fedora Master

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I hadn't play since TW:Warhammer 1, and I must confess the Warriors of Chaos campaign is much better now in TW3(Immortal Empires).
No more 250 enemy agents each rolling the dice to murder your lords every turn, and submitting other chaos factions to submission is actually fun, while playilg whack a mole with settlements that would be rebuilt was pretty frustrating before.

But with the gifts of chaos, it feels like Warriors of Chaos get all the roster from the daemon factions on top of their existing units? Is there a point to playing daemons over WoC? It must seriously lack variety.
Basically as Chaos Undivided you get access to everything but the difference is how quickly/easily and how much individual units get buffed further.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath

Strong disagree, I played Slaanesh campaign two times already, and had a blast both times. He suffer a bit late game, but generally Slaaneshi armies are very strong, with mobile and durable infantry at the core. And I didn't even use chariots much, if at all. Their magic is strong too, especially since cheap/spammable spells are now even more useful than large-scale damage spells which dominated in WH2.

Do mind, I play at VH/N, maybe difficulty buffs make Slaaneshi units weaker compared to other factions.
What are you comparing it to, though? Like I said, you can do well with any faction, but that doesn't mean all factions are even close to each other in terms of power.
 
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What are you comparing it to, though? Like I said, you can do well with any faction, but that doesn't mean all factions are even close to each other in terms of power.

It's a fine faction. Gets top-tier income with low order, medium income otherwise. Decent magic access and excellent lords. Excellent units though they are one-dimensional, which means it will have bad matchups but its starting area matchup (elves) are basically designed to be raped by super cavalry and fast high DPS melee. I literally don't know what you're on about with them being bad.

IMO:

S tier:
Skaven
Dark Elves
Brettonia
Wood Elves (considering their campaign, not for conquering the world)

A tier:
Beastmen
Kislev
Vampire Counts
Greenskins
Tzeentch
High elves
Cathay
Warriors of Chaos

B tier:
Empire
Slaanesh
Khorne
Tomb Kings
Lizardmen
Ogres
Dwarfs

C tier:
Vampire Coast
Daemons of Chaos
Norsca
(these are all guesses, I haven't played them in immortal empires but I suspect they suck a bit generally speaking, but they may be B tier)

F tier:
Nurgle

Anything B tier is balanced fine as far as I'm concerned. Not saying the have amazingly fun to play or have great mechanics but power-wise they meet the minimum threshold to not be hell to play or require huge cheese to win at the max difficulty level. A-tier is fairly easy and straightforward to win with (either easily accessible overpowered stuff like Waaghs, or Vamp Counts magic, easy starts like Cathay, or just strong overall), S-tier being trivially easy.
 
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Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Average Manatee what are the criteria for the tier list? There are some very strange choices if it's overall faction strength. Dwarfs, ogres, Kislev, Empire are all super weak, probably the weakest factions besides Daemons of Chaos. Even if we go just by LL strength, Karl Franz, Katarin, Ungrim, Daniel are still F tier. Mind you, I haven't played this game in around 2 months, but unless they've completely redesigned them it shouldn't be much different now.
 
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Criteria are basically "how easily I can win a campaign/reach a dominant position without relying on very tedious levels of cheese". Wasn't including LLs at all or faction-specific bonus mechanics (like ikit claw's broken workshop) for any faction, though I was including start position for factions which only have one start position or whose start positions are all easy or hard.

Dwarves: extremely good defensively, practically can't lose a major settlement if you build walls (can farm money by letting revolts spawn in fact and autoresolving them). Awful growth but their units unlock at lower tiers than others, level 2 is quarrelers (spammable shielded ranged units = good, sadly no AP like the god-tier darkshards), tier 3 is longbeards, irondrakes, and shielded handgunners. For all intents and purposes a tier 3 dwarven army should be able to beat basically anything. Armies have the ability to instantly recruit slayers in the field which is a decent ability to temporarily shore up a battered army. Lords are great, runesmith heroes are OK, Master Engineer heroes are excellent. Diplomacy is OK as an order race but all dwarven start positions are kind of just SHIT with you surrounded by factions likely to declare war on you, so lots of multi-front wars.

Ogres: Haven't played them in immortal empires. Camps are great, kind of like a stationary black ark that generates money. From what I can tell you can now get infinite amounts of them at the end of the tech tree which means theoretically infinite money and infinite amounts of defensive armies around the map. Maneaters are great, especially with pistols. Decent magic. Huge campaign movement range boosts. Some bad matchups (e.g. a high elven army composed entirely entirely of lothern sea guard with shields, spears, and long range bows would suck). But generally easy start positions and they are a bit unique in that everyone is kind of OK with them.

Kislev: All of their missile infantry are great and synergize well with ice magic slowing things down. If you look at their garrisons 100% of their units are ranged except for 1 cavalry, and its a great combination of guns and arrows and they also have decent melee stats to hold off enemies and avoid routing. Invocation of Ursun is also OP to keep up 100% of the time since it will forever cause attrition (fucks with AI), gives another ice ability, and when upgraded gives additional melee defense to everything which makes your ranged units actually tanky. All this combined makes them absurdly rock solid defensively, probably the best in the game. You can basically rush half the map with tier 1 kossars just relying on your excellent defense to cover your ass. Helps that you have decent diplomacy and start near a lot of imperials that won't attack you.

Empire: Literally just decent all around. Great ranged capability, good magic, decent heroes, outriders with grenade launchers and mortars can commonly win whole battles with 500+ kills. I have heard that the Elector Counts system was fucked hard by the warriors of chaos addition though. Have only played Volkmar in immortal empires and he's absolutely broken and boosts the faction to almost S-tier.

Honestly curious what you think a faction needs to be "good" if you think all of these are bad. None of them are even close to the pain that is playing something like Nurgle.
 
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Reina

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What are you comparing it to, though? Like I said, you can do well with any faction, but that doesn't mean all factions are even close to each other in terms of power.

I didn't play all races yet, but I found Slaanesh much stronger (in terms of pure combat power, not overall campaign difficulty) than Tzeench/Khorne/VC/Bretonnia, roughly equal to Empire/Kislev/Beastmen and maybe slightly weaker than Cathay and Skaven. They are not as versatile as their peers, but the mobility of their units, in particular infantry, easily makes up for it.
 

Cyberarmy

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More goodies, not Skaven is the best part for me.

movaodd87j4a1.jpg

nhzthrvp7j4a1.jpg
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Criteria are basically "how easily I can win a campaign/reach a dominant position without relying on very tedious levels of cheese". Wasn't including LLs at all or faction-specific bonus mechanics (like ikit claw's broken workshop) for any faction, though I was including start position for factions which only have one start position or whose start positions are all easy or hard.

Dwarves: extremely good defensively, practically can't lose a major settlement if you build walls (can farm money by letting revolts spawn in fact and autoresolving them). Awful growth but their units unlock at lower tiers than others, level 2 is quarrelers (spammable shielded ranged units = good, sadly no AP like the god-tier darkshards), tier 3 is longbeards, irondrakes, and shielded handgunners. For all intents and purposes a tier 3 dwarven army should be able to beat basically anything. Armies have the ability to instantly recruit slayers in the field which is a decent ability to temporarily shore up a battered army. Lords are great, runesmith heroes are OK, Master Engineer heroes are excellent. Diplomacy is OK as an order race but all dwarven start positions are kind of just SHIT with you surrounded by factions likely to declare war on you, so lots of multi-front wars.

Ogres: Haven't played them in immortal empires. Camps are great, kind of like a stationary black ark that generates money. From what I can tell you can now get infinite amounts of them at the end of the tech tree which means theoretically infinite money and infinite amounts of defensive armies around the map. Maneaters are great, especially with pistols. Decent magic. Huge campaign movement range boosts. Some bad matchups (e.g. a high elven army composed entirely entirely of lothern sea guard with shields, spears, and long range bows would suck). But generally easy start positions and they are a bit unique in that everyone is kind of OK with them.

Kislev: All of their missile infantry are great and synergize well with ice magic slowing things down. If you look at their garrisons 100% of their units are ranged except for 1 cavalry, and its a great combination of guns and arrows and they also have decent melee stats to hold off enemies and avoid routing. Invocation of Ursun is also OP to keep up 100% of the time since it will forever cause attrition (fucks with AI), gives another ice ability, and when upgraded gives additional melee defense to everything which makes your ranged units actually tanky. All this combined makes them absurdly rock solid defensively, probably the best in the game. You can basically rush half the map with tier 1 kossars just relying on your excellent defense to cover your ass. Helps that you have decent diplomacy and start near a lot of imperials that won't attack you.

Empire: Literally just decent all around. Great ranged capability, good magic, decent heroes, outriders with grenade launchers and mortars can commonly win whole battles with 500+ kills. I have heard that the Elector Counts system was fucked hard by the warriors of chaos addition though. Have only played Volkmar in immortal empires and he's absolutely broken and boosts the faction to almost S-tier.

Honestly curious what you think a faction needs to be "good" if you think all of these are bad. None of them are even close to the pain that is playing something like Nurgle.
Dwarfs: Slow on the campaign map (Grombrindal helps with this), slow replenishment (Grombrindal helps with this as well), slow growth (especially because you have to choose between growth and income in minor settlements), the only units they can recruit without a building are miners. They have good early armies, but getting to them is a pain and very slow. On top of that, the grudge meter is busted unless they've fixed it by now, but I consider this a bug, so I'm not counting it as a legit con.

Ogres: You can only build up to 7 camps with the appropriate research (unless this was changed in the last patch?), two of which are at the end of the tree. That's definitely not enough for their objectives on the immortal empires map. They are ok on the RoC map, though.

Kislev: Hybrid units are jacks of all trades, master of none, especially the kossars, which are the only units you can rely on in the beginning. They are ok in melee and range, but they struggle against armored units. A lot of their provinces don't have major settlements. Their economy is not the greatest. Their starting positions are not ideal too, Katarin can potentially have up to 6 LLs around that hate her (realistically only 5, but potentially up to 6). She is arguably one of the hardest campaigns atm. Kislev doesn't struggle with growth at least, but they struggle with the starting position, devotion, the supporter system, the early game armies not having armor piercing, etc.

Empire: Their mechanics are outdated/outright broken and that's especially rough for Karl Franz, who has to deal with secessionists, Festus, Sylvania, Grom, but it affects 3 out of the 4 LLs. Their mid-game army is very good, but getting there is a pain, just like with the dwarfs. Their AI allies are terrible too.

Like I said, you can *eventually* do well with anyone, but that misses the forest for the trees.
 
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Dwarfs: Slow on the campaign map (Grombrindal helps with this)
No? Dwarves are slow in battle but I'm fairly sure every campaign army has the same base 100% movement speed. Dwarves then have Engineers which provide a movement speed bonus. They are held back by the fact that mountain settlements tend to be further apart compared to other provinces though.

slow replenishment (Grombrindal helps with this as well)
I don't really agree. They lack a replenishment hero but if you rush the blue line you're a normal faction.

slow growth (especially because you have to choose between growth and income in minor settlements)
Definitely one of their problems, I always tech towards the +growth and +growth commandments. As I said though they only really need tier 3 to field completely awesome armies that can handle anything. Drakeguns can handle infinity chaff, handgunners can snipe lords and monsters, Longbeards are super efficient melee.

On top of that, the grudge meter is busted unless they've fixed it by now, but I consider this a bug, so I'm not counting it as a legit con.
Like I said, they have incredible defense (along with Kislev), so you can actually take advantage of this by just letting revolts spawn and having the garrison kill them. Easy free money and you avoid needing public order buildings. With dwarves you can autoresolve rebels like 80% of the time and with Kislev its probably 90%.

I did play the runesmith dwarf and his grudge meter was semi-busted in that it was at 50% just because of his campaign objectives being unfulfilled, so there was no way to reduce it to 0% short of basically winning the game (though you could knock out one or two objectives early to reduce it to 40% or so). I think the other dwarfs are not stupid like and their meters start with easily achievable stuff like beating up the nearest LL rival.

Ogres: You can only build up to 7 camps with the appropriate research (unless this was changed in the last patch?), two of which are at the end of the tree. That's definitely not enough for their objectives on the immortal empires map. They are ok on the RoC map, though.

One of their final techs now gives +1 camp limit for every level 5 camp you have. So with 7 max rank camps you can make another 7 and start leveling them up (and leveling gets a lot quicker later with a lot of growth boosts). Granted the tech tree is long, and I can't recall if Ogres have any easily cheesable research boosts (like how Dwarves can just keep hiring those +5% research lords and disband them, or humans get constant +10% research students).

Kislev: Hybrid units are jacks of all trades, master of none, especially the kossars, which are the only units you can rely on in the beginning. They are ok in melee and range, but they struggle against armored units.

I do agree that they struggle a bit against armor but I see them as a heavy rush faction in an area that doesn't normally field much armored stuff until the late game. By the time you need anti armor you have ice guard and streltsy.

A lot of their provinces don't have major settlements. Their economy is not the greatest.
Not relevant as soon as you expand outside your starting area which should be done in like the first 10 turns. Their economy is mid-tier but they do get cool minor global bonuses for each resource their control so I think they could technically scale decently if you are actually going for a long campaign.

Empire: Their mechanics are outdated/outright broken and that's especially rough for Karl Franz, who has to deal with secessionists, Festus, Sylvania, Grom, but it affects 3 out of the 4 LLs. Their mid-game army is very good, but getting there is a pain, just like with the dwarfs. Their AI allies are terrible too.
Only 2 empire lords are in the empire now (Volkmar got moved to the desertbowl and Markus is still in Lustria). Grom shouldn't be a problem as Franz if you control the mountain pass. I agree that trying to simultaneously put down Festus and the Vamp Counts seems like its a bit annoying though. At least there's only one vamp count major faction in the Empire since Daddy Issues kid also got moved to the desertbowl. I wasn't really rating the empire mechanics since I haven't experienced them in WH3, but to a certain extent you can just build up and then conquer everyone if the civil war happens. Franz has a really nice 4-slot settlement and Empire buildings allow him to start +recruitment rank bonuses and recruitment slot bonuses to churn out whole armies of rank 9 units in just a few turns which is very powerful.
 
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Trying a Boris game. Really fucking hard start, much harder than the two normal Kislev starts. Absolutely surrounded by people who hate you including Archaon who will attack and his vassals will swarm you in a way that is almost impossible to defend (even if you can beat his army, they'll eat you alive). Also all your lords besides yourself aren't immune to chaos wastes attrition which means they are kind of... just fucked up there.

After multiple poor starts I figured the best strategy might be to pull back across the sea next to the other Kislevites to cover your south and the dwarven minors to hopefully hold out against the west while you head to take the Skull Road. This worked... for a very short while. Unfortunately literally every order-aligned faction died almost instantly except the minor Kislev faction that held Praag which I was able to confederate before they died. And I still got declared on by everyone. I never even got to see the two other legendary lords. But with Praag walled up and the northern chokepoint at Monolith of Bubonicus eventually walled I was able to weather the storm long enough to level up and get my economy going, eventually sniping Archaon's fortress and almost finishing off Throt. Unfortunately Throgg managed to make his way in and start sacking the coastline ports but I fended him off eventually. I'm at war with literally every neighbor (OK, except Malus, but I'm gonna attack him anyway because Boris might as well continue crusading west rather than spend 10 turns trying to get to another front) and several non-neighbors. But then so are they, so they don't really focus on me now.

I am afraid of Grimgor whose been at war with me for like 20 turns but hasn't shown up. He's snowballed and is at rank 1.

One godsend has been the Praag unique building that gives -1 global recruit turns, allowing me to reinforce with strong units in the field, giving some Streltsy to units who needed them. It originally had the war sled building and I tried them out against the Skaven. Was kind of... ehh. Really needed more ammo. I see now that they can get +40% extra ammo from lord skills and +15% from tech so maybe with those they'd do great. But in the meantime Kossars are still god-tier units, 40 MA/48 MD archers both fight and autoresolve really well.

Also there seems to be a bug where sometimes rebel spawns for Kislev (or maybe just Boris?) will only have 1 lord who immediately attacks. Honestly kind of bad for me since farming rebels is a significant part of my income.

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EDIT: Oh lol, one turn later and I've accomplished the short victory. Just needed to kill archaon, the starting chaos enemy, then occupy/loot/race/sack 30 different settlements.

How better is this compared to TWW2? Played a fair bit of TWW1, not much of 2...

Immortal Empires has just more stuff and a few more refined mechanics. Wouldn't say its hugely ahead quality wise though. But if you play the TWW3 story campaign then you're wading through dogshit.
 
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Finished Long Campaign for Boris. Took around 30 turns longer than it should have because Kholek kept fucking running further east till he got almost to the edge of the map.

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Some more thoughts on Kislev as a faction:

- Their global resource bonuses does scale up pretty well, but not enough to make them a true top income earner even at my size. Right now my minor settlements earn about ~650 gold each. Brettonia and Dark Elf settlements make like 1k each from the start of the game. Iron also gives -3% army upkeep each and I have 6 of them, so that's -18% which is also... OK. Basically at my point each resource is earning me an extra 600-1200 gold each ontop of their normal income and trade bonus (so probably around 1000-1600 total each).

- Replenishment is mad high. The game drowns you in patriarcs to begin with since half the enemy's settlements will convert to their building. Patriarchs also eventually get a further +3% replenishment as a unique ability. You also get +3% replenishment factionwide from each medicinal plant resource you conquer (I have 3 at the moment). On top of this Kislev has great climate preferences everywhere. Boris literally has to go down to tomb kings desert or fuck around in high elf forests to get red climate. Almost everything else is green except chaos wastes which is yellow, and I can still hit the 50% replenishment cap in yellow climate. Granted non-boris kislevs are still red in chaos wastes which would suck but not nearly as badly as everyone else. I'd still have around 35% replenishment with a decently leveled patriarch and lord in red areas.

- Sleds are great with more ammo if you actually fight all your battles. They counter super highly armored infantry pretty well in fact. But when you get to the 90% autoresolves point of the game they aren't really worth it.

- I hate that the ice guard with halberds is tier 5, which takes forever to get to. The Sword variant is honestly not that much better than normal Kossars are since they are non-AP, which is kind of a joke considering we're comparing a tier 1 to tier 4 unit. Paying for slightly better melee power vs. unarmored infantry on a bow unit is not a good deal because they instantly die to the arrows anyway, so you're basically just paying for the frostbite effect but my ice mages already inflict that anyway. So I never really even used them even after they unlocked due to the 2-3 turn global recruitment time, just spamming Kossars and Streltsy. They do come at tier 4 if you own Kislev (the city) but it was razed for me...
 
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Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
How better is this compared to TWW2? Played a fair bit of TWW1, not much of 2...
I had endless and turn times in mortal empires, and it wirke just fine in immortal empires, so TWW3 wie by default for me.
It is possible they patched TWW2 ME since, though.
I took it to play chaos, and the warriors of chaos campaign is a bazillion better than in TWW1.
 

pickmeister

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The only Total War game I played before this was Rome and after reading that all the others that came after it were worse, I wasn't really eager to really dive into this.

The previous weekend, I was thinking of the great time spent in the old Warhammer Online MMORPG, which doesn't exist anymore. The game was alright but the best part was definitely the world and the lore. My only experience with Warhammer Fantasy btw.
So after resisting for several years, I finally decided to buy the first TWW and you're telling me that's the worst one? I'm in the middle of my first Dwarf campaigns, decimated all the greenskins in the south, started confederating other dwarf factions and holy shit! I'm having a blast despite dwarfs apparently being the most boring race to play.

Can't wait to play the other races and then the newer games.
 
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My experience of the first two TWW games is that they are very fun until you start discovering the glaring AI flaws in the tactical maps (some of them dating back years and years, to previous TWs) and getting hit by the major strategy/campaign map annoyances, which usually come by mid-late game.

Battlefield animations are mostly great, and the different units are well represented - however, in terms of gameplay, all factions sort of devolve into a samey mush over time, which is a shame.

I think these games would benefit greatly from a smaller scale. Trying to cram everything in at the same time is a major source of decline.

My first TW game was the original Shogun, all the way back when it was released over 20 years ago. I played the hell out of it and I remember it in contrast to Myth, which was my other most-played strategy game. Each scratched a different itch, and I miss the simplicity of the more Risk-like strategic layer of earlier TWs.
 
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What do you guys think the ultimate army for Daemons of Chaos is? I'm thinking Khorne infantry (owns everything), Nurgle lord (mass healing), Tzeentch flamers (dumpsters units). Not sure which cavalry if any to go for out of slaanesh/tzeentch/khorne, they all have good perks. Might go for a Khorne lord for the army buffs to khorne units and instead make my nurgle caster a hero though. I also know that Slaanesh's Chosen are stupidly tanky for some reason but that's probably too high tier to wait for.

I will say the bonuses for locking yourself to a single god actually look really good, -25% upkeep and +6 recruit rank for everything is nothing to sneeze at. Especially going full-khorne might be a good plan for anyone who wants to play khorne but wants a normal economy rather than the hyper-aggressive raze-focused one, since you get fairly normal buildings and mechanics going that route. Same for if you want to go Nurgle but not deal with his building retardation.

EDIT: Ohh... Daemons of Chaos don't actually get the advanced human infantry or other human units like chosen cavalry. That makes things a lot more complicated. Not sure what demonic infantry to use since they are all kind of squishy except for Nurgle's Plaguebearers. Maybe have those, a blood shrine, tzeentch flamers and a nurgle lord. Could throw in some slaanesh cavalry as well.

EDIT2: Wait, looks like the campaign units available are different from the skirmish ones and what they tell you in the race units panel. It looks like you can stack multiple god's warshrine auras ontop of each other? That sounds silly OP and I'm gonna try it. Nurgle for healing, Slaanesh for mortis engine effect, Khorne for melee buffs, stuff it all inside a tanky as fuck exalted plaguebearer mob and laugh.
 
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