Troika and the Fallout rights - where did I read that?

[Vault Dweller]

A track record which hasn't been quite achieved ever since Fallout. As good as they may have been, wholly or partially, Troika's games were never fully capable of presenting something like Fallout again.

I didn't mean Fallout, I meant the 3 Troika games. Once again, as flawed as they were, they were good RPGs and that's what it's all about.

Sure, but a developer can change the perspective of casual gamers. Most of the things we dislike in CRPGs and which are meant to appeal to casual gamers generally were placed there by developers and publishers willing to risk something. It's their design principle, but it can change. In baby steps, of course

Only if Oblivion flops.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

A track record which hasn't been quite achieved ever since Fallout. As good as they may have been, wholly or partially, Troika's games were never fully capable of presenting something like Fallout again.

To be fair, not even FO2 stacks up to it's predecessor. As flawed as it was, IMO Arcanum was the closest RPG we've had to both fallouts in both Art and writing style, bah it's hard to explain, but it's the only other title i've played that had that fallout feeling of old, regardess of it's completely different setting.

 

[Lumpy]

Why not? Beth is trying to make games more friendlier for casual gamers, so "kinetic" combat is the way to go. They appeal to the casual crowd with "if you visually hit it - you done hit it!", and they try to ride the hardcore train with "damage is stat-based". That's not a feature, that's philosophy. It's very, very likely that the same philosophy and design principle will make it into FO3. To do anything else would require a different way of thinking and beliefs in different concepts, which Beth doesn't have. Can you imagine all the casual folks going "OMG! I shot him in the face but missed! WTF?!" No, aint gonna happen.

There is a difference. There will still be a dieroll for ranged combat. So there will probably be a dieroll for fallout as well.

 

[Revasser]

Only if Oblivion flops.

Ahhh. Imagine the smugness and self-satisfaction that would pervade the Codex if this happened. I know that I, for one, would be chuckling about it for months, if not years.

 

[Vault Dweller]

@ Lumpy: What happens if you shoot in an "up close and personal" manner? Still a roll?

 

[callehe]

I love this thread. So much hatred.

The only thing I love more than this thread is the fact that Troika won't be doing Fallout. They released three games, each one more flawed than the last. I'm sure the boys at Troika had creative vision in spades. It's just too bad they fucked up the execution every single time. Getting the Fallout license would not magically solve this. If you think so, you're living in fairy fantasy land.

Bethsoft made morrowwind, and that game was sooo well executed, right?

fucking moron...

 

[Lumpy]

@ Lumpy: What happens if you shoot in an "up close and personal" manner? Still a roll?

Yes. Probably. A roll with a 98% chance of success.

 

[Briosafreak]

Geez page 9?... now Kathode won't read my question on page 7, damn...

 

[Lumpy]

I love this thread. So much hatred.

The only thing I love more than this thread is the fact that Troika won't be doing Fallout. They released three games, each one more flawed than the last. I'm sure the boys at Troika had creative vision in spades. It's just too bad they fucked up the execution every single time. Getting the Fallout license would not magically solve this. If you think so, you're living in fairy fantasy land.

Bethsoft made morrowwind, and that game was sooo well executed, right?

fucking moron...

Well, it DID get Game of the Year, was loved by many people, so I guess it is a good game.
OK, i know I'll be flamed for this.

 

[Fintilgin]

I love this thread. So much hatred.
The only thing I love more than this thread is the fact that Troika won't be doing Fallout.

You're doing some hating yourself there, buddy. Angry much, Mr. Sockpuppet?

Arcanum was Troika's best effort and it still had horrible balance issues, a godawful combat system, poor graphics and no coherent visual style beyond the interface.

Yeah, let's just forget the fact that it had a cool world, great writing, lots of interesting character choices, and tons of RPG goodness. It's all about a coherent visual style and ammmmaaazing graphics! Arcanum and Troika were far from perfect, but hey, what is?

In fact, let's mention another company that has, on occasion, made an otherwise great game with tons of bugs, horrible balance issues, and a lousy combat system. In fact one of these games is renowned as one of the buggiest CRPGs ever to hit the PC. You might have heard of it. Daggerfall. By Bethesda.

Now, Morrowind was an improvement, and hopefully Oblivion will be even more so (although Troika didn't have the luxury of being able to delay their game a month before shipping for bug fixing) but it seems insanely hypocritcial to condem Troika as being unable to make a good Fallout 3 because their games were buggy and unbalanced while defending Bethesda. I love the Elder Scrolls games, but DAMN, nobody can claim they aren't woefully unbalanced with more than their fair share of bugs. (And if we're bitching about graphics, we could mention the fugly Morrowind faces and complaints about stiff animation, but we won't.)

How about a game as good as Fallout. I mean, you guys keep saying Troika would have been best at, nay, deserved to make a Fallout sequel. So how come none of their games can stand an honest comparison with Fallout?

I think Arcanum and Bloodlines do preaty well in a fair comparisson. I loved Fallout, but it definately had it's own flaws. I think a lot of the love for it is flavored by nostalga. It was the first such game, and thus it occupys a special niche. Even if later games are better they're still 'building off' Fallout. Personally, I'd rather see a sequel to Arcanum then Fallout.

As for Troika having a 'moral' right to make Fallout 3 over Bethesda, well... yeah, in a sense I agree with that. They certainly don't have a legal right, but those aren't the same thing. Regardless of who worked for what company when, the fact is that the three co-founders of Troika were the movers and shakers behind dreaming up, writing, coding and creating Fallout. I think it can, legitimately, be considered 'their baby'. They certainly have more a right to it then some total strangers to the license from 3000 miles away who just happen to have a bit more cash on hand.

Honestly, I'd rather see a slightly buggier, less polished, less mainstream (Xbox! LOL!) version of Fallout 3 from the folks who dreamed it up IN THE FIRST PLACE then a mega slick, polished, game with amazingly kick-ass graphics dressed up as Fallout by a company (which I otherwise like) but that has no history with the franchise OR with that particular and rather unique style of RPGs.

See, I'm sure Bethesda would admit that learned a LOT about making an Elder Scrolls style game from Daggerfall. And probably a LOT more from Morrowind. I doubt very much that they could have made Oblivion what it is without that experience and learning what works and dosn't work. That's another reason why I'm skeptical of a Bethesda Fallout 3. The 'Black Isle' style RPG is vastly different from the Elder Scrolls style, and as far as I know no one there has worked on any of them. I wanted a Fallout 3 that built not just on Fallout, but on Planescape: Torment, on Arcanum, and on Bloodlines. A game that benifited from the expereince of the folks who made those games the same way Oblivion benifits from the experience of those who made the earlier Elder Scrolls games. If you'd handed Elder Scrolls 4 to Bioware to make, I doubt it would be much like the game we'll be getting. Even if Bioware had intended to make Oblivion just like Bethesda did, I think it would have turned out very different just because of the vastly different style games they make. Similarly, I can't help but feel Fallout 3 will be a total reimaging, a good game perhaps, but not really a Fallout sequel in anything but setting.

Of course, my REAL wish is that Bethesda (or anyone dammit) had come up with some NEW IP. A new world. Imagine that. I'm so sick of god-damn sequels.

Here's a thought for you, if Troika had made better games then maybe they'd had the cash on hand to buy the rights

I think that's a preaty lame argument when it comes to creative rights. Money dosn't trump all. Okay. Well, maybe it does. But it shouldn't. For example, to use a bit of hyperbole, I don't think Tolkien should have lost the rights to write 'The Return of the King' just because, say, Terry Brooks managed to outbid him to the IP rights to Lord of the Rings. I think creative people have at least some limited rights to their work that trancendes money and legalities, but I'm a bit of an idealist that way.

 

[callehe]

Well, it DID get Game of the Year, was loved by many people, so I guess it is a good game.

Sure, I guess it's a fantastic game if you like (can live with):
the non-existance of dialogue trees,
to walk extremely long distances in the game,
to do quests in a linear manner...


Personally, I feel that troika's games are much closer to the idea of what fallout is, compared to bethsoft games, but feel free to disagree...

 

[Lumpy]

Well, it DID get Game of the Year, was loved by many people, so I guess it is a good game.

Sure, I guess it's a fantastic game if you like (can live with):
the non-existance of dialogue trees,
to walk extremely long distances in the game,
to do quests in a linear manner...


Personally, I feel that troika's games are much closer to the idea of what fallout is, compared to bethsoft games, but feel free to disagree...

Sigh... I know very well about all the flaws it had. I liked it because of the freedom it offered. And I think the other TES fans feel the same way.
It might not be the most quality RPG, but most people don't really care about quality these days.

 

[callehe]

@Lumpy:You forget that just because that you and TES fans like morrowwind, does not make that game a good RPG.

Bethsoft is so busy sucking up to "casual gamer" that they ignore the true RPG fans.Their behaviour reminds me of Coca Cola's "new Coke campaign". Instead of asking what taste of coke coca-cola-fans liked, coca-cola asked the random people on the street what taste they preferred, and based their new flavour on the response they got from the test-subjects. You people living in America might recall how bad "new coke" flopped, despite the fact that a majority of the testing subjects said that the new coke tasted better.

the moral: companies should try to please theirexisting fanbase - don't sell your ass to your desired fanbase.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Well, it DID get Game of the Year, was loved by many people, so I guess it is a good game.

Sure, I guess it's a fantastic game if you like (can live with):
the non-existance of dialogue trees,
to walk extremely long distances in the game,
to do quests in a linear manner...


Personally, I feel that troika's games are much closer to the idea of what fallout is, compared to bethsoft games, but feel free to disagree...

Of course they are closer. The question is not really if they will make the same game that Troika might have made. They won't, and thats why all these people are angry. The question for ME (as someone who likes TES games) is rather if Bethesda can bring in enough of what made the original Fallout great and avoid the TES aspects that would clash the worst with the spirit of Fallout. If they are successfull at that it could be a game that I personally might really enjoy , although more purist fans most likely won't. Hell, a lot of people have already bitched so much and lifted Fallout on such a high pedestal that they would not WANT to like FO3, whatever it turns out to be. I definitely do not just want an Oblivion with guns though - this should be a different series with its own style and its own unique stregths.

 

[Lumpy]

@Lumpy:You forget that just because that you and TES fans like morrowwind, does not make that game a good RPG.

No. The fact that TES fans are numerous does.

 

[callehe]

No. The fact that TES fans are numerous does.

the nazis where numerous too, does that make hitler a jolly chap?

 

[Lumpy]

No. The fact that TES fans are numerous does.

the nazis where numerous too, does that make hitler a jolly chap?

Oh, damn it. What is a good game? One that Codexers like? Or one that gets good reviews and has a lot of fans?

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

No. The fact that TES fans are numerous does.

the nazis where numerous too, does that make hitler a jolly chap?

Oh, damn it. What is a good game? One that Codexers like? Or one that gets good reviews and has a lot of fans?

Excellent! Now I get compared to Nazis because I like TES games? When all is said and done, a good game is one that I enjoy playing dammit!

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

From a purely business perspective, I think the smart thing for Bethesda to have done was get the license, have Troika develop FO3 while they publish, and stay on Troika's back every waking moment making sure they met development milestones on time and on budget while maintaining good quality assurance. I don't think even the Troika people would be all that shocked and offended if they were forced by their publisher to make it more "mainstream", because even with those constraints Troika could probably make a better Fallout game than Bethesda.

 

[callehe]

my point is: just because a lot of ppl like a game (heck even majority of ppl) does not automatically make it GOOD.

the nazi analogy were perhaps a little unapropriate.

 

[Kalle]

The point is that Troika's games, as flawed as they were, are much better than most if not all RPGs released in the last 5 years if not more. Nobody claimed that they are perfect.

...which isn't saying much when you consider how few RPG's have actually been released in the last five years. And even then I'd only consider Arcanum to be a contender. ToEE is nothing but a D&D combat simulator and Vampire stopped trying to be an RPG once you hit the endless sewers.

 

[Vault Dweller]

...which isn't saying much when you consider how few RPG's have actually been released in the last five years.

And that's about to change or what?

And even then I'd only consider Arcanum to be a contender.

Ok, you've admitted that Arcanum was a decent game, that's a start

ToEE is nothing but a D&D combat simulator

And that's a bad thing? ToEE offers the best TB combat since JA with all the cool little things like grappling and tripping, tons of skills and feats, etc.

...and Vampire stopped trying to be an RPG once you hit the endless sewers.

True. MW never even tried to be an RPG though.

 

[Kalle]

Arcanum was Troika's best effort and it still had horrible balance issues, a godawful combat system, poor graphics and no coherent visual style beyond the interface.

Yeah, let's just forget the fact that it had a cool world, great writing, lots of interesting character choices, and tons of RPG goodness. It's all about a coherent visual style and ammmmaaazing graphics! Arcanum and Troika were far from perfect, but hey, what is?

Yes, the game was not all bad. Nor did I suggest it. But it had more than it's share of flaws and they ran far deeper than in Fallout.

it seems insanely hypocritical to condem Troika as being unable to make a good Fallout 3 because their games were buggy and unbalanced while defending Bethesda.

Where exactly did I defend Bethesda?

As for Troika having a 'moral' right to make Fallout 3 over Bethesda, that argument is so mind-bogglingly stupid that to see it paraded around in this thread time and time again makes me question the sanity of everyone who uses it.

I think creative people have at least some limited rights to their work that trancendes money and legalities, but I'm a bit of an idealist that way.

Creative people already have all the rights to their work by default. The fellows who later left to found Troika do not own the IP because they *sold* their rights to Interplay when they signed up to work there to *make games* for the company. Unless you or someone else can present some claim that proves that Interplay cheated them in the process then Interplay can morally do whatever the hell they want with the IP. And then there's the non-trivial matter of Interplay providing the means to execute this project in terms of personnel, equipment and office space.

 

[obediah]

From a purely business perspective, I think the smart thing for Bethesda to have done was get the license, have Troika develop FO3 while they publish, and stay on Troika's back every waking moment making sure they met development milestones on time and on budget while maintaining good quality assurance. I don't think even the Troika people would be all that shocked and offended if they were forced by their publisher to make it more "mainstream", because even with those constraints Troika could probably make a better Fallout game than Bethesda.

I think it's safe to assume that neither of the Fallouts or any of the three Troika games sold in the numbers that Bethesda is looking for. From a "purely business perspective" Bethesda wants lots of sales, and to build a franchise - and working with Troika gets them neither of those things. It would get them "a better fallout game", but that is meaningless in the business perspective you set.

 

[Volourn]

"Once again, as flawed as they were, they were good RPGs and that's what it's all about."

TOEE was not a good role-playing. It was a good combat system ruined by some of the easiest, and repeitve combat ever. Not to mention the bugs. Let's not forget the broken 'promises' that TOEE would be at Aracnum and FO's level of role-playingness. Hahah. i told everyone that was a mde up story; but no one believed it. Same with the opening vingettes. I whined that they'd be nothing more thna 2 minute waste of times. Everyone else whined that I was whining for no reason. Troika repeatedly stated that I was flat out wrong, and that the vignettes would be so awesome that we'd shit our pants in glee. Once again, I was proven riught. I should have stuck with my hunch and skipped over the poor combat of TOEE sicn eit offered nothing else except the awesome froggs.

BL is a fun game, and should be a top 10 master game; but sadly it's just another good game with lots of bugs, One of the Worst Combat Systems Ever tm., and a pasable story. What saved BL for me was the fantatsic characters which crushed both TOEE, and Arcanum.

Arcanum was a good game; but after trying to play s econd time the wekanesses of the game have hurt it for me. Still Arcanum is very close to my top 10. Kinda borderlines it. Maybe even squeezes in depending on my mood.


So, take out TOEE in your role-playing assessment than I might agree with you.

Fool.

 

[Whipporowill]

So, take out TOEE in your role-playing assessment than I might agree with you.

Fool.

You have asperger's or something Ted? You pretty much agree with the sentiment, and just have to add the "fool" part for flavour? Classy!