GhanBuriGhan said:
I didn't even aregue with you calling it that, Rosh. You are in rambling mode now, as usual...
Actually, by going back and reading what you wrote, you did argue with me calling it that.
Calling it a shit trick and uncourteous - go ahead if you want, if that is your opinion. That's at a different level than calling it morally or ethically wrong though.
In art, authoring, etc, it is HIGHLY disrespectful to do as they have done and not contact the originasl authors.
kathode said:
Rosh said:
kathode said:
(Snip more idiotic excuses.)
That still doesn't invalidate the point of a fucking courtesy call.
I wasn't responding to you. Dhurin posted about the supposed bidding war, which I find ludicrous. Vault Dweller is still posting about it like it's gospel and I still don't see any way it could be when you look at the numbers.
First we get "conspiracy", and then move to "bidding war", to cover up Bethesda's rudseness and lack of ethics as a developer. Anything else you Bethesda guys would like to coin to try and spin this any more? Taking a cheap shot at Troika's financial situation isn't that particularly bright on your part, either, with the fans. So on behalf of developers with real integrity, I cordially invite you to go violate yourselves with a beloved X-Brick controller, just like you had violated your own game (TES) and fanbase for selling out on a shitty console. Add tabasco sauce for the lying and spin-doctoring. The treatment of your own IP speaks volumes for how you would even treat your breadwinner, so that must mean Fallout's the whipping boy until we hear otherwise. Especially given Bethesda's words from the license aquisition announcement.
kathode, MSFD, we are not some stupid IGN hype whores. You have to try a bit better than that crap to sell us an excuse and spin-doctoring. It might also help if you guys also picked an excuse and stuck fully with it.
Human Shield said:
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
it's still not Bethesda's fault.
It is Bethesda's fault if we get a non-faithful sequel.
Entirely.
Vault Dweller said:
IF Beth went out of business, IF the license was for sale, IF 2 people were interested, LeFay and Cain, a guy who had nothing to do with TES and didn't give a shit about it, then definitely LeFay would have all the moral rights to the license.
And the onus of authorship courtesy would then be placed on Cain in turn. Let me explain the reason WHY this courtesy exists, from the days when people used to author by pen. It isn't because of the author's wishes, it is intended to be so for the integrity of the work and what was written previously. To ignore courtesy would also infer ignoring the important particulars of the piece, as generally the authors and those able to discern good design know how well deviating from the composition can in fact be disasterous to the future work.
You see, it doesn't make you popular with those you acquire licenses out from under, when they have worked on the title in the past and know the material. So it screws you over with your peers and potential co-workers, because there is nothing ethical about trying to take an author's work away from them. Yes, the license was rightfully bought, yadda yadda, but it doesn't make it moral or popular, and shouldn't be excused as such, either, so developers/publishers that might have NOTHING to do with either company take a look at the shit tricks that negatively reflect upon Bethesda in turn regardless of how Lowest Common Denominator they can stride for. It also doesn't make you popular with the fans/audience/people who follow the game series when you do something like that, either. Really, it's like the Hasbro acquiring MicroProse and denying the original authors from working on their own creation, to later have other development houses do it for cheaper and for crappy trendy design. Nobody really cared for what Hasbro did, either.
So it really boils down to business ethics also tying in with overall business stability, as this courtesy came about with the intellectual property in mind first and foremost. After all, it doesn't make much sense to willfully try to kill off a game series by disenfranchising its audience, unless that is what is truly intended.
Fintilgin: Good example, and as I have said it to the occasional Bethesda fanboy over at NMA who posts some "great brilliant amalgam of Fallout and TES" in regards as to how they want Fallout skullfucked for their own personal tastes, they probably wouldn't like it if TES suddenly had TB combat, speech that actually required you to think before replying and a lot of it*, isometric view, and many other things that made Fallout a P&P RPG and also made it clear that Bethesda still hasn't developed a real CRPG - just merely a few action-adventure titles, commonly referred to as "dungeon crawlers".
* - I was corrected on this. It seems that Bethesda fans have been wanting this since Daggerfall's mess of a speech system didn't improve any with Morrowind, and instead operated like a really hokey version of Ultima 7's speech system. Daggerfall's speech system was passable with Arena, but the fans weren't holding their breath since most of the remainder of the game was little more than an Random Number Generator fleshed out into an entire engine.
Human Shield said:
Writing - Troika person.
Design- Troika.
Graphics - Design by Troika.
Music - Design by Troika.
Characters - Troika.
Story - Troika.
Setting design and theme - Troika, since obviously those left at BIS didn't have a fucking clue at the time, right MCA, Feargus, etc? Chris Taylor also did a wonderful job of almost nothing for FOT, and what a wonderful FOT manual! Yes, the people at Interplay also did a wonderful job with F
OS.
And, for that matter, include "designed to be a P&P RPG on computer" and the FULL Fallout title into Troika credit, because it became obvious that Feargus didn't understand what "P&P RPG" meant even years after the fact, and he was supposedly the division lead. But he did a wonderful job on the unfinished Boneyards, thus forever embodying his SLAM DUNK! development style. :D
Briosafreak said:
One thing though, if Troika found out Beth was in the game i don`t see how Beth wouldn´t know that troika was playing it too, but Beth always denied that, we´ll have to take their word for it then.
If they wanted the license and knew much about it (as they had claimed incessantly after getting the license), then Bethesda could have averted those ill feelings, the resentment of fans, and negative press by doing things the courteous way. Instead, it looks like they purposefully went for the license no matter what, and are now lying about it. Either they were ignorant about the license or they weren't, there is no "halfway" of ignorance being the excuse for one part, but they are such fans and know the title and have been following it for years! Yeah, right. Pick one, folks, and stick with it. Trying to reinvent your excuses is just pathetic.
And I have to finish this up with a nod to DarkSign. It looks like you are starting to get some sense about the industry. Too bad you learned the hard way, ironically, that using Fallout's name the way you did was similarly immoral in a development sense, but you're learning. Your comment about how we would consider Troika selling out would be a bit funny, since the fans were pretty okay with Troika handing Herve money over for developing Fallout 3. So with Bethesda's background support and Troika's design preferences and ability, it would have been win-win-win for Bethesda, fans, and Troika, even if it wasn't wholly what all the fans want in having the game like a P&P CRPG - as was Fallout designed for a purpose because any lame shit was getting RPG tacked onto it for having a stat system but no real role-playing value. But at least it would have stood a lesser chance of being skullfucked.
Now we have Fallout again in the hands of people who, with all indications with their spin-doctoring throwing up red warning strobes, look like they have the same understanding of Fallout that MicroForté did and the same desire for cheap console cash like Chuck Cuevas, but with a Lowest Common Denominator design style preference.
Fallout 3 = Fucked.
