Company News Troika Closes Its Doors

[Ellester]

It simply doesn't follow that unscaled encounters require the builders to restrict access to areas. You could just let people die if they try to take on stuff they can't handle, like in BG1 or Fallout.

If anything, it's scaled encounters that take away freedom of choice. You're free to make choices because your choices don't matter.

I think the Bethseda guy answered that question already. You don’t have to scale a monster or encounter starting from level 1. They can start their scaling at level 20. The scaled encounters in Wizardry8 worked the same way BG1 and FO worked, even though they were different systems.

You couldn’t just enter Bayjin an start killing monsters, first off if you followed the quest way, it would take a long time before that quest opened up to you. The second way would be to enter from the swamp and just take it head on. But, those guys will devastate a low level party. But, you do have a choice to try it, it’s just that choice will lead to slaughter of your party. So I don’t see where it’s restricted over a BG1 or FO.

 

[Gromnir]

The idea being to keep the game challenging as you progress

That's what combat systems are for.

huh?

folks likes optional side-quests... and folks likes non-linear games (though the notion of a non-linear game is more of an illusion than anything else... at least with current tech.) if you reward folks with experience and/or 1007, then the more optional side-quests you got, the greater the potential power disparity you is gonna have 'tween players who do only the critical path stuff, and those who does everything. "non-linear" games leads to a similar problem 'cause the developers is increasingly less likely to know what level you will be when you face a specific challenge or encounter. furthermore, the two most common complaints game developers tends to see is:

1) the game was too hard
2) the game was too easy

so, given the fact that you already know that perfect balance is impossible, and recognizing that folks tend to want optional side-quests and non-linearity in games, what is a developer to do to attempt to make encounters challenging for all players w/o making too difficult?

scale encounters is a simple and efficient method. 'course if you thinks that combat system design would solve, we would like more detail on how it would solve. no doubt the developers would like to hear some practical alternatives to scaling... as would Gromnir.

however, is noteworthy that kotor2 did a piss-poor job o' scaling, but we not think the notion of scaled encounters is bad 'cause obsidian handled scale stuff badly. is an intuitive and simple solution to a very real problem.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[DarkSign]

That sucks. I was reading the Oblivion article in PC Gamer (same old shit, nothing to report), and it sez that encounters will be scaled to your level. What the fuck happened to challenges in games? Oh fucking well....

This means that enemy encounters will get HARDER as you level up. It means that you won't be able to beat everyone down just because you've got a 75 blade skill and 100 strength. The idea being to keep the game challenging as you progress. From your comment, it seems you've misinterpreted the article to mean just the opposite.

How can you possibly get that from his post?


1. "What the fuck happened to challenges in games?" = there was no challenge
2. no challenge = very little scale, if any to his level
3. level = difficulty rating
4. difficulty = syn. for harder

Im stunned that you felt the need to correct him when he said what the guy meant.
If anything you might squeak by by noting that the depth of the scaling wasnt enough (i.e. that he was at the top of said level and it was attuned for the weakest person at that level).

/scratches head...wondering about Beth soft.

 

[dojoteef]

I'm just going to mention one problem in your post Gromnir. You attributed the post to the wrong person. You are actually quoting Vault Dweller not MrSmileyFaceDude.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

OK there are two ways to place a creature in the world.
1. Drop a creature in the world. This creature will have fixed stats & a fixed level.
2. Drop a "leveled creature" in the world.

A leveled creature is basically a list of pairings, matching a PC level to a particular creature or list of creatures. When a leveled creature is encountered in the game, which creature appears is chosen from the list based on the PC's level. If there's more than one creature specified for a particular level, it'll choose from one of those creatures. For example, you might have a list like this (all of the creatures & levels are hypothetical):

Level: Creature
1: Weak Rat (which is a level 1 creature)
1: Mole Rat (which is a level 5 creature)
1: Lame Rat (which is a level 1 creature)
10: Mangy Mutt (a level 10 creature)
30: Nuclear Bobcat (a level 20 creature)
30: Megadog (a level 30 creature)
30: Innocuous Rodent (a level 50 creature)
50: Tasmanian Devil (a level 55 creature)

So if the PC's level is less than 10, it'll choose randomly between a Weak Rat, a Mole Rat, or a Lame Rat. Between 10 and 30, a Mangy Mutt. Between 30 and 50, a random choice of a Nuclear Bobcat, Megadog or Innocuous Rodent. And 50 or higher, it'll always be a Tasmanian Devil.

That's how enemies are scaled -- the stats don't have to coincide 1-1 with the PC's.

 

[Gromnir]

I'm just going to mention one problem in your post Gromnir. You attributed the post to the wrong person. You are actually quoting Vault Dweller not MrSmileyFaceDude.

we think it is obvious that we were addressing vd and not the developer... is why we said in our post that the developers would no doubt like practical feedback. is simply that we lifted the quote and did not enclose al brackets when we cut and pasted... didn't think it were a big deal or one that needed clarification.

however, if you honestly were confused, then we apologize.

HA! Good Fun!

p.s. "30: Innocuous Rodent (a level 50 creature)"

an innocuous level 50 creature? how many levels you got?

 

[mathboy]

TROIKA MIGHT BE DEAD, STOP TALKING ABOUT YOUR FUCKING KOTORS AND MORROWINDS AND SHOW SOME SORROW

 

[Elwro]

Thanks for the clarification, MSFD. It seems that it will work in the way similar to Morrowind, but please make the tables long enough! :D

 

[Sol Invictus]

I hope you provide a lot of variety for the monsters, though, MSFD. It'd also be appropriate if the 'mole rats' were still around in some locations but were not hostile towards your character. It would be odd if they dissapeared from the game the moment you hit level 10.

I like a good challenge, and the ants/mole rats in Fallout 2's latter game served as little more than annoying nuisances that wasted the player's time. Having too much random/spawned combat wouldn't be much fun either. I don't think anyone enjoyed the Cliff Racers in Morrowind.

Instead of having a bunch of creatures attack the player at later levels, it'd make more sense to scale up humanoid/intelligent opponents rather than animals. I can understand and even appreciate different types of humanoid goons in the game, most of whom scale up in difficulty with the character. It wouldn't make much sense if your guy turned into a superhero capable of taking thousands of bullets, unless he acquired some Power Armor.

 

[Elwro]

I It'd also be appropriate if the 'mole rats' were still around in some locations but were not hostile towards your character. It would be odd if they dissapeared from the game the moment you hit level 10.

So if the PC's level is less than 10, it'll choose randomly between a Weak Rat, a Mole Rat, or a Lame Rat

I understand it so that no matter how high is your level, the mole rat stays in the random monster table.

 

[bryce777]

Also, running is underrated. When is the last time you ran away in a game?

In fallout you would run a lot early on, or else die. That seems realistic.

 

[Jed]

I think you misunderstood, Elwro. And as much as I hate to agree with Ex, that's a good point about having formerly hostile entities that are now significantly below your level no longer go hostile. Suicidal enemies is more nuisance than anything.

 

[Gromnir]

am not sorrowful. am not anymore sorry for troika then we is when we sees those nature shows where the wolves kill a caribou and then marty stoufer or whoever notes that the wolves keeps the caribou strong by culling the old and weak from the herd. troika had some talented folks, but they obviously were not having 'nuff business sense to be viable any longer.

now maybe those talented troika folks will go work for more capable development houses so that their talents can be utilized more efficiently.

am sorry for the individual developers who did their best to makes a good product and saw the potential of their work go unrealized. we even feel bad for the incompetents who is now gonna have to find real jobs. heck, we even feel bad for that yutz tim... 'cause we thinks he had some good ideas. however, we do not feel bad for the passing of troika... they was like the diseased and tired caribou and they were wasting the talents of some good developers.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Vault Dweller]

That's how enemies are scaled -- the stats don't have to coincide 1-1 with the PC's.

That goes without saying, but as a result it's *always* possible to defeat your opponents in such an encounter. That makes the gameplay shallow, imo. You don't need to think, to be afraid of what could wait for you behind that door, to be concerned about your chances, etc. You *know* that your friendly developers took care of that for you and that every creature is there to amuse, drop loot, give exp, but not to present a serious "Oh, shit!"-type threat.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

That's how enemies are scaled -- the stats don't have to coincide 1-1 with the PC's.

That goes without saying, but as a result it's *always* possible to defeat your opponents in such an encounter. That makes the gameplay shallow, imo. You don't need to think, to be afraid of what could wait for you behind that door, to be concerned about your chances, etc. You *know* that your friendly developers took care of that for you and that every creature is there to amuse, drop loot, give exp, but not to present a serious "Oh, shit!"-type threat.

Ah, but as in the example I provided, there's a chance that creatures GREATER than your level can appear, if the lists are set up that way.

 

[Volourn]

"Also, running is underrated. When is the last time you ran away in a game?

In fallout you would run a lot early on, or else die. That seems realistic."

I never run. Ever. At all. Unless the game absolutely forces you to ala some FF sequences...

 

[Gromnir]

"You *know* that your friendly developers took care of that for you and that every creature is there to amuse, drop loot, give exp, but not to present a serious "Oh, shit!"-type threat."

we assume you ain't being obtuse.

developer already says that you not gotta scale 1:1. developer mentions that a particular boss encounter might have a min. scale level of 30 or some such. so, why does you assume that overpowering enemies is eliminated by scale? just have the "tough" encounters start with a higher min. scale. with scale you can always gurantee that a encounter will be tough... but will also ensure that it ain't too easy.

am not seeing the confusion... maybe we is missing something.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[merry andrew]

Troika is just moving to Obsidian's offices. Hence, they can't be Troika anymore. All hail the return of Black Isle.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Troika is just moving to Obsidian's offices. Hence, they can't be Troika anymore. All hail the return of Black Isle.

Oh yeah, I can see that happenning.

 

[Gromnir]

Troika is just moving to Obsidian's offices. Hence, they can't be Troika anymore. All hail the return of Black Isle.

Oh yeah, I can see that happenning.

you don't think there would be a group hug 'tween fergie and the troika guys?

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

you don't think there would be a group hug 'tween fergie and the troika guys?

Wouldn't they have to get in a group to get enough arm span to hug feargie?

Hah! I kid teh feargie and his gerth.

 

[Fez]

It's a damn shame if they have gone, but I suppose I should wait until absolute confirmation.

Maybe Troika have been hired by the government to create a military simulator to train the army to fight against the evil vampire horde? :shock:

Troika is closing, Gehenna is upon us!

 

[Gromnir]

well, there is multiple troika guys... they could kinda link arms to gets more reach... and with more fergie, there is that much more room for troikanites to fit into the catharitc/healing hug.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Major_Blackhart]

God, if this IS true, where will the big 3 end up? That's my question of the day.

 

[RGE]

I never run. Ever. At all. Unless the game absolutely forces you to ala some FF sequences...

I play NWN with players like you. Even the archers bravely stand still and fire arrows in the face of death. I usually end up being a couple levels higher than those people, because when they stood around to die, my character ran the hell away and fired his ranged weapon any time he wasn't being chased. It'd never work in PnP due to the turnbased charging and such, but it works fine with realtime movement. And in PnP you can always throw stuff at the DM when he throws up impossibly dangerous monsters.

When it comes to scaling I don't really know what I would prefer. The monster list system for Oblivion sounds good for action, but for realism I would definitely prefer a system where enemies would stop harassing you after you've killed enough of them. I agree that there's little point in having a level system if the game is just going to level up the difficulties as well. Then you may as well keep the levels static and sprinkle monsters of various types and difficulties around the world. Ok, that was a lie, because the first rule of CRPGs is that the player must be allowed to level up their character. CRPGs are like farms, and the player is like a farmer, and damnit, that farmer wants to see some visible growth!

Wasteland had a good way of scaling combat skills. Whenever you fought something that was tough enough compared to your skill, you stood a chance to raise that skill. Yet another way of scaling combat would be to scale it to the plot. If the PC enters a certain stage in the plot where dangerous enemies want to see the PC dead these dangerous enemies will turn up and try to kill the PC. Don't make enemies, and you can travel in relative peace. If they can make movies where the heroes fight tons of enemies more or less due to the plot, why do games have to offer stupid wildlife attacking the PC? How I am supposed to take games like that seriously? (And yes, Arcanum had that too - some clichés are just too good to give up, eh?)