Company News Troika Closes Its Doors

[Gromnir]

oh, sure... that makes sense 'cause if you can do for boss encounters then there is no way to do for other encounters.

We aren't talking about what's *technically* possible here. Can they do that? Sure. Would they do that? I doubt that. After all, 90% of combat in MW was challenge-free.

"Doing a lot of side quests and getting more loot doesn't mean that your character should become a demi-god in comparison to a character who skipped side quests and got modest loot."

ease up on the hyperbole chum. who said anything 'bout demigod status? regardless, if you does more optional side-quests you will be more powerful than those who did not. will always be rewards for quests, whether it be 1007 or experience, and those that do more will get more. again, try to ease up on the ridiculous hyperbole and maybe we can have a real discussion.

Well, I'm playing KOTOR 2 now slaughtering armies of the Sith, so any complaints about hyperboles should be directed at Obsidian. Before that I was playing Gothic 2. Killed a few armies of orcs that an army of paladins couldn't handle, slew some dragons, you know, the usual. Anyway, in many game systems doing more side-quests and getting proper rewards mean insanely high HPs, impenetratable defenses, and unstoppable attacks. In other words, god-like powers that could be handled only by properly scaled encounters. However, if the effects of levels and items were more reasonable (like getting rid of HP increases and therefore of massive 300-400 HP behemoths), perhaps then there would be no need for all that scaled stuff.

...

you lose train of thought kinda quick, no?

first you describes how scaling in kotor2 sucks... and you suggest that scaling, in general sucks, and that the combat system itself should be used to ameliorate problems otherwise addressed by scaling.

now, whether or not bethesda will use scale to adjust most encounters or just boss encounters not really impact those issues that you raised. bethesda developer comments is noteworthy insofar as letting us know what can be done with scaling, but as to whether or not scale is good or bad their particular actions is hardly probative, no? nevertheless, we has no idea why you assume that scaling will be used in fo3, but that some encounters/areas will not benefit from similar handling as boss encounter example the bethesda chump made... where there is a relatively high basement placed on the encounter.

also, you seems to have confused self with the issue of optional quests. the fact that you can becomes a TITAN in kotor2 does not got much to do with the issue of optional quests tending to result in a power disparity 'tween those who do and those who do not... so we ain't sure what point you is trying to make anymore, and we ain't sure if you do either. regardless of the scheme used by a developer, if a player has lots of optional quests available to them, and if those optional quests result in rewards of 1007 or exp, then there will always be a power disparity 'tween those who do the optional stuff and those who do not. Gromnir is not suggesting that the models of level progression in past d&d crpgs has been ideal, but it gots nothing to do with the present issue.

alan said, "The funny thing about scaling is that it's generally used to do the opposite of what Gromnir said it should be used for."

where we say that? just noted a developer's example of what CAN be done.

as to bio games, they has typically used level caps and gameplay bottlenecks to deal with power disparities... and those approaches has had limited efficacy. as we has not played hotu (a munchkinized drow filled game weren't something we were interested in playing,) we cannot address that game's problems.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[AlanC9]

alan said, "The funny thing about scaling is that it's generally used to do the opposite of what Gromnir said it should be used for."

where we say that? just noted a developer's example of what CAN be done.

as to bio games, they has typically used level caps and gameplay bottlenecks to deal with power disparities... and those approaches has had limited efficacy. as we has not played hotu (a munchkinized drow filled game weren't something we were interested in playing,) we cannot address that game's problems.

Right. I should have said "the opposite of what Gromnir said it could be used for," or dredged up the dev's post.

HotU's not an example of sidequests causing power disparities, since it's relatively sidequest-free. I mentioned it because the non-scaling bosses are a problem, due to the lack of class balance in D&D.

Ordinarily you can let the companions take care of this, but you face the Ch2 endboss solo, and may have to do the final boss solo as well. This can be very bad for support and stealth classes. There's a noncombat path for the final battle, but if you missed something earlier you can be S.O.L.

And HotU's only relatively munchkinny --- not even in the same league as KotOR 2.

 

[EEVIAC]

You sure about that? Being a successful indie developer (*cough* Bio *cough*) seems to depend somewhat on developing good relationships with publishers (of course developing AAA titles helps too).

Bioware has had three different publishers for their last three games - Interplay for BG2, Atari for NWN, Lucasarts/EA for KOTOR. Jade Empire is published by Microsoft, so that's four different publishers. So, are Bioware pissing off their publishers? Or is this precisely what's wrong with the game industry right now...

 

[Volourn]

"Bioware has had three different publishers for their last three games - Interplay for BG2, Atari for NWN, Lucasarts/EA for KOTOR. Jade Empire is published by Microsoft, so that's four different publishers. So, are Bioware pissing off their publishers? Or is this precisely what's wrong with the game industry right now..."

And, BIO's first four games were all published by Interplay, I believe. And, NWN was as well until that relation ship blew up. So, for BIO's early existence they had publisher stability. By the time they didn't; they no longer needed a publisher outside of for actual publishing. And, sooner or later, they're gonna be so big that they'll have to publish.

As for BIO; I'd wager that they pissed off Interplay espicially when they ripped the NWN license off off their cold hands. of course, I remember that both Interplay and BIS were bragging that they got a 'steal' when they got NWN off their hands. Hahaha. I call bullshit on that one.

I think the reason why BIO swicthes publishers is mainly because they can.

Of course, one should point out that BIO is still on decent terms with their previous publishers 9aside from the virtually non existent Interplay). BIo helped convince LA to give KOTOR2 to Obsidian, and agreed to help on various points with the game. Theya re still working with Atari on NWN patches and downloadable content. Not to mention, their support of NWN2 as well as agreeing to host the NWN2 forums on their boards.. WOW! That sure doesn't sound like a company 'pissing off their publishers'.

 

[Kuato]

[Bioware has had three different publishers for their last three games - Interplay for BG2, Atari for NWN, Lucasarts/EA for KOTOR. Jade Empire is published by Microsoft, so that's four different publishers. So, are Bioware pissing off their publishers? Or is this precisely what's wrong with the game industry right now...[/quote]

Or more accurately are Publishers pissing off Bioware...heres a clue Jade empire and Dragon age two games not invovling the tangled restrictions of working with Big name licences like D&D and Star Wars Id hate to know how restrictive the style guides are for working with those licenses looks like Bioware just got the gum out of their hair so they can they focus more on making a great game and not appeasing some Brand managers Idea of what a game should be.

On the other hand how successful would Kotor be if had not been set in the Starwars universe or a NWN like game not using the D&D license

I think Jade Empire and Dragon Age will let us know

 

[EEVIAC]

And, BIO's first four games were all published by Interplay, I believe. And, NWN was as well until that relation ship blew up. So, for BIO's early existence they had publisher stability. By the time they didn't; they no longer needed a publisher outside of for actual publishing. And, sooner or later, they're gonna be so big that they'll have to publish.

That's a big difference between Troika and Bioware - Bioware were willing to wait things out. The Troika folks could have stayed on and built up FO, but I have doubts that Troika ever wanted to do a sequel for any of their games (except maybe for money.) Bioware made sure they banked on every title, with expansions for both BG's and two for NWN that has probably set them up for a few years. It was more of business decision than a genuine want to expand those games (my opinion obviously.) Either way, Bioware made the sensible move.

As for BIO; I'd wager that they pissed off Interplay espicially when they ripped the NWN license off off their cold hands. of course, I remember that both Interplay and BIS were bragging that they got a 'steal' when they got NWN off their hands. Hahaha. I call bullshit on that one.

I wasn't actually saying that Bioware pisses off its publishers ("So, are Bioware pissing off their publishers?" was rhetorical question.) Even though I'm sure they annoyed Atari and Lucasarts for not doing NWN2 and KOTOR2, I'd say its more of a case of publishers pissing off Bioware (as Kuato mentioned.)

I think the reason why BIO swicthes publishers is mainly because they can.

That's my point - they shouldn't have to. Every time they shift publishers they have to deal with new management, new QA - that's resources that aren't going directly into creating a game. When a bankable company like Bioware has to go through a different publisher to do a new project like Jade Empire, surely there's problems with the industry. Its not necessarilly a case of being on bad terms with a publisher, its that publishers usually can't see beyond expansions and sequels.

 

[DemonKing]

That's my point - they shouldn't have to. Every time they shift publishers they have to deal with new management, new QA - that's resources that aren't going directly into creating a game. When a bankable company like Bioware has to go through a different publisher to do a new project like Jade Empire, surely there's problems with the industry.

1. Unlike Troika, Bio have their own dedicated QA team which ensures that they're not so subject to the whims of publishers and the publishers idiotic QA as Troika were.

2. Bio can pick and choose who their publisher is - I imagine the publishers are lining up to work with them - and remember that NWN2 and KOTOR2 both use Bio tech, so they're still making money while working on their own IPs - for which they can negotiate for the best deal possible.

 

[Volourn]

"I have doubts that Troika ever wanted to do a sequel for any of their games (except maybe for money.) "

Eh. Every single game released they made it pretty clear that they wanted to make sequels to them. Hell, for TOEE, that had a whole list of old modules they wnated to follow up with.


"It was more of business decision than a genuine want to expand those games (my opinion obviously.)"

Wow. Opinions don't make sense. BIO is already planning ahead for JE2 and they've already talked about DA expansions/sequels. I don't think BIO shys aay from expansions or sequels. In fact, TOB was supposed to be BG3; but BIO decided to make it a rather large expansions instead because they worried by the time they'd be done a full fledge BG3; the IE would wholly outdated. Not to mention, expansions while able of making money will not make a company rich.


"Every time they shift publishers they have to deal with new management, new QA - that's resources that aren't going directly into creating a game."

Like DK said, BIO simply does not rely on publisher QA. They have an entire team set up for QA'ing.


"When a bankable company like Bioware has to go through a different publisher to do a new project like Jade Empire, surely there's problems with the industry."

I think it's more a case of BIo able to approach each project with care and precision since theya rne't in fear of collapsing anys econd. They don't have to rush to a publisher's call like other companies seem to. I don't think it's really a matter of either side pissing each other off. Of course, Interplay's case was different..

 

[EEVIAC]

Bio can pick and choose who their publisher is - I imagine the publishers are lining up to work with them - and remember that NWN2 and KOTOR2 both use Bio tech, so they're still making money while working on their own IPs - for which they can negotiate for the best deal possible.

All this shows is that publishers are lining up for Bioware to produce sequels, which they've shifted off onto Obsidian. Providing tech support and getting your name on the back of the box is a lot different to employing 70 people to work on a game. The question remains though - if Bioware has such "equitable" relations with former publishers, why aren't Atari or Lucasarts publishing Jade Empire? Did Microsoft offer more money? (Most likely.) Did Atari or Lucasarts even offer to publish it?

All I'm saying is that there's a lot of reasons why a developer won't continue producing games with the same publisher. That Troika has had three different publishers is not uncommon. As for "I see no evidence that Troika had a good - or even equitable - relationship with any of their publishers" statement - if you want to provide a quote where Sierra/Atari/Activision have said "we will never work with those arse-clowns at Troika ever again," be my guest.

 

[DemonKing]

All I'm saying is that there's a lot of reasons why a developer won't continue producing games with the same publisher. That Troika has had three different publishers is not uncommon. As for "I see no evidence that Troika had a good - or even equitable - relationship with any of their publishers" statement - if you want to provide a quote where Sierra/Atari/Activision have said "we will never work with those arse-clowns at Troika ever again," be my guest.

There aren't too many indies I can think of that have produced 3 different titles for 3 different publishers and *never* worked with any of those publishers again. The very fact that Troika was never given a second opportunity with any of their publishers again speaks volumes.

Of course none of there titles were monster sellers, but I believe Bio's first title sold less than 100 000 units and they went on to produce 6 more titles for Interplay after that (if you include the MDK games) before things went sour...although in the case of the NWN publisher switch it was pretty clearly due to the Interplay's incompetence.

 

[EEVIAC]

There aren't too many indies I can think of that have produced 3 different titles for 3 different publishers and *never* worked with any of those publishers again.

More importantly, how many indies publish new games with new IP's (not sequels or expansions) with the same publisher. Anyway, Creative Assembly have had two different publishers, Elixir have had two publishers for two games, Monolith have been published by nearly everyone, Relic have had three different publishers over four games. That's just the nature of working from contract to contract. Whether it be money or license, or a good working relationship with management, unless you have some kind of multi-game contract there's always going to be a point where a company's future is uncertain.

The very fact that Troika was never given a second opportunity with any of their publishers again speaks volumes.

That's not something we know. Atari could well have offered Troika a Crazy Cougar platform game or a Civil War shooter. Doesn't matter much at this point anyway.


---

Eh. Every single game released they made it pretty clear that they wanted to make sequels to them. Hell, for TOEE, that had a whole list of old modules they wnated to follow up with.

Like I said, for money. :D If Atari didn't offer viable renumeration or time to make those other modules, talk is cheap.

I don't think BIO shys aay from expansions or sequels. In fact, TOB was supposed to be BG3; but BIO decided to make it a rather large expansions instead because they worried by the time they'd be done a full fledge BG3; the IE would wholly outdated.

I'll take your word on the BG expansions (that's presuming they weren't "ordered" by IPLY) but I was mainly referencing the statement about Bio's split with IPLY over NWN. It depends on how you read it but to me it sounded like Bio knew they had to bank off NWN. With stability they're free to do what they want.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

it seems the publisher never seemed to want to work with them again.

You have that backwards.

Now you could claim that 3 different publishers all decided to shaft little old Troika, but really the common factor here is Tim and co. Frankly I believe the closure has to go down at least partly to bad management.

Nice mouth stuffing there. You said the publishers didn't want to work with Troika. I said you had it backwards. The end result is the same in either case when youi want big publisher type funding to make a game.

You either have to do whatever the big publisher wants out of the deal or you need to tighten your belts and work on a smaller budget.

Eh. Every single game released they made it pretty clear that they wanted to make sequels to them. Hell, for TOEE, that had a whole list of old modules they wnated to follow up with.

Welcome to the wonderful world of PR, where things you say publically aren't always what you mean.

 

[Reklar]

All I'm saying is that there's a lot of reasons why a developer won't continue producing games with the same publisher. That Troika has had three different publishers is not uncommon. As for "I see no evidence that Troika had a good - or even equitable - relationship with any of their publishers" statement - if you want to provide a quote where Sierra/Atari/Activision have said "we will never work with those arse-clowns at Troika ever again," be my guest.

There aren't too many indies I can think of that have produced 3 different titles for 3 different publishers and *never* worked with any of those publishers again. The very fact that Troika was never given a second opportunity with any of their publishers again speaks volumes.

Of course none of there titles were monster sellers, but I believe Bio's first title sold less than 100 000 units and they went on to produce 6 more titles for Interplay after that (if you include the MDK games) before things went sour...although in the case of the NWN publisher switch it was pretty clearly due to the Interplay's incompetence.

I just thought I would note that BioWare did not develop MDK or MDK2, they were both done by Shiny Interactive. If they have a connection to Shiny that I am unaware of, pardon my ignorance, but so far as I know BioWare was not involved in either project.

-Reklar
(a Fallout/RPG fan)

 

[dojoteef]

MDK2


Here as well.

 

[dojoteef]

Eh. Every single game released they made it pretty clear that they wanted to make sequels to them. Hell, for TOEE, that had a whole list of old modules they wnated to follow up with.

Welcome to the wonderful world of PR, where things you say publically aren't always what you mean.

So you're implying you have the crystal ball that everyone else claims to have?

 

[Volourn]

"Welcome to the wonderful world of PR, where things you say publically aren't always what you mean."

You got no proof. While you live in Fantasy Land, the rest of us will see the MULTIPLE statements stating, quite clearly, the opposite. But, hey, if you want to accuse Troika of LYING so be it.

 

[Reklar]

MDK2


Here as well.

I'm going to assume for now (since I can't view them at work) that your links prove my ignorance. I think I still have my box for MDK2 at home, so I'll check it and the links when I get home. That reminds me, I only played the demo for MDK, so I need to see if I can find a copy of it for sale online somewhere.

-Reklar
(a Fallout/RPG fan)

 

[dojoteef]

Wow, I forgot to mention the most obvious site: Bioware.

 

[AlanC9]

How did Bio end up with MDK2, anyway?

And another Codex thread ends up being about Bioware.....

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

So you're implying you have the crystal ball that everyone else claims to have?

No, believe it or not, I've actually had conversations with the people involved. Hell, I knew ToEE was a one shot deal when it was first announced. Something along the lines of, I just want to make one fantasy dungeon crawler because I've never done one before. I even heard a few reasons why a few people there would never, ever want to work on a D&D CRPG again because Hasbro/WotC sucks to deal with when you're working on one of their owned licenses. Even after discussions like that, there were interviews asking questions about future similar titles where the name Against the Giants pops up.

 

[Vault Dweller]

nevertheless, we has no idea why you assume that scaling will be used in fo3

Just like we has no idea why you mention fo3 in this discussion

so we ain't sure what point you is trying to make anymore, and we ain't sure if you do either. regardless of the scheme used by a developer, if a player has lots of optional quests available to them, and if those optional quests result in rewards of 1007 or exp, then there will always be a power disparity 'tween those who do the optional stuff and those who do not.

It depends on the power. If after doing every side quest, you've become 10 times more powerful than a person who didn't then the system is fucked up and you need some scaling to fuck it up even more. If the power increases are reasonable, and PC is never invulnerable, and the combat system reflects that in a nice way, then there is no need for scaling. Simple as that. So, if you did all the quests, and looked under every rock, then certain things would be easier for you. Not easy, but easier. That, imo, is acceptable as a reward for doing everything.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Troika basically lied (cough*PR*cough) about Against the Giants in all of their interviews.

As Saint said, TOEE was always a one shot deal and although there was a very slim chance that they would have been contracted to make such a sequel, it was never something either they, nor Atari anticipated. Atari wasn't banking on TOEE to be a blockbuster, and as such barely invested any marketing into it. I don't know how many people remember seeing TOEE posters and ads, because I sure don't, unless you think GameBanshee's stupid ads are representative of advertising everywhere. Atari even used TOEE as an experiment for TryMedia. That didn't work out, either. Nobody wants to have to download 1200mb of 1 hours worth of gameplay.

 

[Fez]

I have to say, TOEE got very little or no advertising that I saw. I wouldn't have known about the game before realease, if I hadn't heard about it here. It just got dumped on the shelves. Not the first time that has happened, and to good games.

 

[Volourn]

"Atari wasn't banking on TOEE to be a blockbuster, and as such barely invested any marketing into it."

Huh? TOEE ads were everywhere. Magizine ads and articles up the wazoo. Anyone who thinks otherwise is on crack.

 

[Sol Invictus]

You're the one on crack, Volourn. The marketing was abysmal. They even added piss fog to the box art.