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Company News Troika is closed

Jed

Cipher
Joined
Nov 3, 2002
Messages
3,287
Location
Tech Bro Hell
ScottishMartialArts said:
Since no one wants to buy the argument that bugs did Troika in how about this: Troika made mediocre games that sold poorly. Had Troika made a Fallout or a Planescape or even a Baldur's Gate I'd be upset about this, the fact of the matter is that their games didn't even approach the level of quality seen at Black Isle. I would have traded all three Troika games to see just one more Looking Glass title or Black Isle's Jefferson.
Black Isle only made one good game, Torment, which is less an RPG and more an adventure game with stats and crappy combat. Fallout 2 was a sequel, so that doesn't really count; BioWare made the Baldur's Gate games; and I hardly find much worth in the IWD games. I wouldn't retroactively hold my breath for Jefferson--judging by BI's record, it might not have been all that.

I'd say that Aracanum alone stands up to the majority of BI games combined.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
A noob mumbling something stupid. How cute.

ScottishMartialArts said:
Had Troika made a Fallout or a Planescape or even a Baldur's Gate I'd be upset about this, the fact of the matter is that their games didn't even approach the level of quality seen at Black Isle.
Ah, Black Isle, the highest standard of quality. Fallout 2, PST, Torn, the IWD series. Fallout 2 - bugs, references, theme towns. PST - great story, npcs, dialogues, awful combat. Torn - talking about mismanagement. IWD - a very mixed bags, mediocre at best. And of course Jefferson and Van Buren, the greatest games ever because we'd never see them. So, what level of quality are we talking about here?

Broken game systems
Such as...?

A fresh setting or a faithful rules interpretation, might be vaguely creative but they don't matter at all if the game itself is broken and not fun.
What game was broken again?

I would have traded all three Troika games to see just one more Looking Glass title or Black Isle's Jefferson.
You can! It's a miracle!! Bless the Lord!!! You can play KOTOR 2 which features a lot of Jefferson ideas: a bond with a cleric woman, the influence system, etc. What an AWESOME game that was.
 

Human Shield

Augur
Joined
Sep 7, 2003
Messages
2,027
Location
VA, USA
Saint_Proverbius said:
ScottishMartialArts said:
Since no one wants to buy the argument that bugs did Troika in how about this: Troika made mediocre games that sold poorly.

Actually, they all sold well enough to at least double the investment put in to them.

Can you explain why they failed then?
 

ElastiZombie

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
Messages
142
Location
Soviet Canuckistan
ScottishMartialArts said:
Since no one wants to buy the argument that bugs did Troika in how about this: Troika made mediocre games that sold poorly. Had Troika made a Fallout or a Planescape or even a Baldur's Gate I'd be upset about this, the fact of the matter is that their games didn't even approach the level of quality seen at Black Isle. Broken game systems, moronic design decisions and copius bugs fucked Troika much more than any bullshit mainstream vs. creativity excuse. A fresh setting or a faithful rules interpretation, might be vaguely creative but they don't matter at all if the game itself is broken and not fun.

I would have traded all three Troika games to see just one more Looking Glass title or Black Isle's Jefferson.

Well thanks for kicking the still-warm corpse. I can see that the sensitivity training has really paid off.
 
Self-Ejected

ScottishMartialArts

Self-Ejected
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Messages
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California
Vault Dweller said:
A noob mumbling something stupid. How cute.

Black Isle: At least Black Isle games were fun polished and playable to the point that I had motivation to finish them, I can't say the same for anything out of Troika. If you want to tear apart every minute issue in Black Isle Games it's easy to do so, that doesn't change the fact that Troika games are generally held as being inferior and that when Black Isle was in it's heyday there was always a quality CRPG coming out.

Broken Game Systems:

Arcanum- The Combat System was broken pure and simple, character system was highly imbalanced.

ToEE: Complete lack of a story, barely existant NPC interaction, and rules issues (identify anyone?).

Bloodlines: Combat system that lacked any sort of feel or responsiveness, barely functional AI, and level design that had more in common with the first effort of an amateur Half-Life modder than a professional design house.

Those are all near fatal problems that arn't even remotely related to bugs. When you toss in the higher than average bug level and complete lack of polish you get decidedly mediocre games.

All three games were broken, see above.

No need to be a sarcastic fuck. KotOR 2 despite it's problems and general shallowness, was in my opinion a more complete and playable title than anything Troika ever produced.
 

Sheriff05

Liturgist
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Messages
618
Location
Chicago
So much going on here I feel the need to share.


taks said:
bullshit. troika's demise had nothing to do with creativity vs. mainstream. quit making excuses for an inability to create a quality product.

What is it you do again? make parts for cellphones or something important like that?, your inability (unwillingness) to understand the complexity of the issue is really astounding. We all know Troika fucked up in numerous way but to boil it down to this black and white, "They fucked up, they suck" without being able to see the all the factors involved makes you an asshole, I'll chalk it up to your Ego.

taks said:
three strikes you're out dude. do you think that reputation for horribly buggy games didn't carry over? again, duh. not to mention the fact that those three strikes took 7 fucking years.

try to think a little. this has nothing to do with "flame war" at all. it's called common sense.

It's about the 20th strike for you being a pretentious moron. You do comprehend that people like Troika's games and bug aside wished them well and still bought their games? As far as I know all their games sold well enough to make money. Personally I'll take a good game that's got bugs over most of the shit on the market anyday. And common sense? who the fuck are you kidding? are you and Darksign roomates by the way?
just curious.


Naked_Lunch said:
Fuck all these faggot flamewars or whatever. Just pay your respects or not. I don't really give a shit how Troika failed, they did and that's that. They put out some great games that I and a lot of you very much enjoyed. Let it be.

I like this guy.


undead dolphin hacker said:
Fuck Troika. After seven years they couldn't learn to QC. They fucking deserved this.

You do know Troika never did the QA or QC on their own games? The publishers did in all three cases, and Saint importantly points out below they (publishers) don't give a fuck. That in itself is a huge fucking problem that Troika learned from the hard way.
Anyway, at least you don't spam away assuming you know it all, like most assholes here.


Jed said:
undead dolphin hacker said:
Oh my god. Troika self-publishing would result in products so buggy they'd cause your rig to combust...
Troika self-publishing would result in Troika being in control of the development cycles.

and doing the QA on their own games.



Saint_Proverbius said:
Do you honestly think publishers give a flying fuck how buggy the games they release are anymore?

How in the fuck the people that hang here regularly DON'T get this, is really a head scratcher

Human Shield said:
Can you explain why they failed then?

This is totally redunant after a dozen threads on the issue, but simply put:
Troika failed because there is ZERO room is the US gaming industry for a house that has no capability to self-fund. IF you can't QA your own shit, IF can't pay staff between projects, IF you can't get funding for next project before the current project is finished, IF the bosses wear too many hats, and IF your publisher only thinks of you product as widgit on a spreadsheet, You are fucked. Troika let themselves get into a position where they were doomed to fail. But the changes in the market and the industry created the enviroment for those positions. The reality is there is no way an indie developer who wants to do creative non mainstrean projects can survive under those conditions.

So anyway it's official, it sucks.
 

Claw

Erudite
Patron
Joined
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Messages
3,777
Location
The center of my world.
Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Amusingly enough, your own link also explains who really is to blame for Troika's demise. :p

If you must blame something, blame the system as a whole. The games industry is extremely volatile.
The one point that article certainly doesn't make is that if a game developer fails, it's because it produced bad, broken or buggy games.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
ScottishMartialArts said:
Black Isle: At least Black Isle games were fun polished and playable to the point that I had motivation to finish them, I can't say the same for anything out of Troika.
FO2 was polished and playable? Like that disappearing car trunk thing and tons of other bugs? Or a patch that wasn't compatible with the pre-patch saved games?

How 'bout the IWD games aka slum dunks. The first one was ok, the expansion was so short they had to do an add-on to fix that, the last was a combat simulator which would have been ok if the combat didn't suck. Oh, and it was so great and polished that it took a patch to add armor to the game.

If you want to tear apart every minute issue in Black Isle Games it's easy to do so, that doesn't change the fact that Troika games are generally held as being inferior and that when Black Isle was in it's heyday there was always a quality CRPG coming out.
"Generaly held", heh. KOTOR is generaly held as a pinnacle of TB greatness, so that doesn't mean much considering the stupidity of general population. Just look at the stuff you've typed in this thread.

Broken Game Systems:

Arcanum- The Combat System was broken pure and simple, character system was highly imbalanced.

ToEE: Complete lack of a story, barely existant NPC interaction, and rules issues (identify anyone?).

Bloodlines: Combat system that lacked any sort of feel or responsiveness, barely functional AI, and level design that had more in common with the first effort of an amateur Half-Life modder than a professional design house.
Arcanum's combat was indeed broken. By Sierra, btw. ToEE was fine in the "not broken" sense. The fact that you picked Identify as your major complaint speaks volumes. And whatever you listed for Bloodlines has nothing to do with your "broken game system".

No need to be a sarcastic fuck.
That I can not help.

KotOR 2 despite it's problems and general shallowness, was in my opinion a more complete and playable title than anything Troika ever produced.
Which part was your favourite: the crappy combat, unbalanced classes, "find x itemms" story, rushed endings, or bugs? Are you done embarrassing yourself?
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,986
"Well, while all you guys are mocking Troika's demise, ask yourselves, who will give us a game with as much depth as one of theirs? (Arcanum mainly, but also Bloodlines in some ways.) "

Bioware, Obsidian, Shitman, Kucksucker, Spaghetti & Cheese, & Hooligan Halfway House just for starters.

As for people not being mature by flaming Troika. How am I flaming them? By saying, truthfully, it's their fault they went out of business? Hahaha. Since when is it immature to point out someone's fialures as their fualt?

Besides, can I smell hypocrites? Afterall, the fanboys defending Troika right now are the same dinks who were dancing on interplay's toes while people wer ebeing fired left and right there?

The only people who deserve blame for Troika's dmise is Troika. Period. And, pointing fingers at Evil Publishers tm and The Braindead Masses tm solves absolutely nothing but make exuses.

Keep up the good work.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
28,044
Volourn said:
Besides, can I smell hypocrites? Afterall, the fanboys defending Troika right now are the same dinks who were dancing on interplay's toes while people wer ebeing fired left and right there?
You've already tried to bring that up and your stupidity was explained to you.
 

NeutralMilkHotel

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Messages
389
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
Somehow this seemed apropos:

We'll meet again
Don't know where
Don't know when
But I know we'll meet again
Some sunny day.

Keep smiling through
Just like you
Always do
Till the blue skies
Drive the dark clouds
Far away.

Best of luck guys!

Is that Vera Lynn?

I just know that line "we'll meet again some sunny day" from Pink Floyd's "Vera".

"Vera! Vera! What has become of you? Remember how you said that we would meet again some sunny day?"
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
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Messages
14,049
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Behind you.
ScottishMartialArts said:
Black Isle: At least Black Isle games were fun polished and playable to the point that I had motivation to finish them, I can't say the same for anything out of Troika. If you want to tear apart every minute issue in Black Isle Games it's easy to do so, that doesn't change the fact that Troika games are generally held as being inferior and that when Black Isle was in it's heyday there was always a quality CRPG coming out.

Yeah, sure, if you're still living in the 1990s. The only games they made after that were IWD and IWD2. If we're talking about games they published, then there's BG2 and.. LIONHEART. And what a fine piece of work Lionheart turned out to be.

Both Lionheart and IWD2 both tanked harder than anything Troika has done, just in case you still want to go on about sales.

Arcanum- The Combat System was broken pure and simple, character system was highly imbalanced.

Granted, but the combat system's fault was really that of the character system.

However, Black Isle never came up with a character system, ever! Or a combat system, or a setting. The only thing close to original Black Isle ever did was TORN, and it was reusing SPECIAL, a generic fantasy setting, and Infinity Engine style combat mechanics, all under a Lithtech Engine hood.

Oh, one more thing about broken character systems.. IWD2's implimentation of 3E anyone?

ToEE: Complete lack of a story, barely existant NPC interaction, and rules issues (identify anyone?).

There was a story, it just didn't break to a movie periodically to tell you what it was. You had to talk to various people, check out the books and things left around, and various other things. It sounds to me that you didn't do much NPC interaction or else you'd know that.

And the identify spell actually requires a pearl to cast, which is 100gp. It's a D&D rule.

Bloodlines: Combat system that lacked any sort of feel or responsiveness, barely functional AI, and level design that had more in common with the first effort of an amateur Half-Life modder than a professional design house.

The combat itself was fine. The only real problem with the combat is that unlike in the town areas where you got to use all your nifty skills, combat and stealth were about it when it came to the main story mission.

Those are all near fatal problems that arn't even remotely related to bugs. When you toss in the higher than average bug level and complete lack of polish you get decidedly mediocre games.

Higher than average? Compared to Black Isle's games? Fallout 2 is one of the buggiest CRPGs ever made. PST is still getting fan patches after six years since it's release. IWD, despite being a horribly simple title to make, even required various patchings. Same goes for IWD2, but at least it was a little more ambitious of a title.

NeutralMilkHotel said:
Is that Vera Lynn?

No.
 

MrSmileyFaceDude

Bethesda Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Messages
716
NeutralMilkHotel said:
Is that Vera Lynn?

I just know that line "we'll meet again some sunny day" from Pink Floyd's "Vera".

"Vera! Vera! What has become of you? Remember how you said that we would meet again some sunny day?"

Yep. This version of the song was used at the very end of Dr. Strangelove, which if you haven't seen, you must.
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
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Messages
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Behind you.
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
Yep. This version of the song was used at the very end of Dr. Strangelove, which if you haven't seen, you must.

What?! YOU LIE!

Okay, maybe I haven't heard that one, but it's definitely not the Pink Floyd one.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,986
"However, Black Isle never came up with a character system, ever!"

Special is property of Inetrplay's RPG Division aka BIS. Nice try there Troika fanboy.


"Both Lionheart and IWD2 both tanked harder than anything Troika has done, just in case you still want to go on about sales."

OMG That explains why BIS doens't exist anymore, dumbass. And, I seriosuly doubt IWD2 tanked as bad as Arcanum did so why are you making things up?


"IWD2's implimentation of 3E anyone?"

Was pretty dman good. And? I dislike IWD2; but its rules implementaion is not one of the reasons.


"And the identify spell actually requires a pearl to cast, which is 100gp. It's a D&D rule."

Ha. Cute. Troika was just following the rules hence why they completely nerfed Identify which doesn't work at all like it should using D&D rules. Nice try though.


"There was a story, it just didn't break to a movie periodically to tell you what it was. You had to talk to various people, check out the books and things left around, and various other things. It sounds to me that you didn't do much NPC interaction or else you'd know that."

Only an idiot would defend TOEE's story.


"The combat itself was fine."

Only an idiot would defend BL's combat whichw as, at best, adequate.


"Higher than average? Compared to Black Isle's games? Fallout 2 is one of the buggiest CRPGs ever made. PST is still getting fan patches after six years since it's release. IWD, despite being a horribly simple title to make, even required various patchings. Same goes for IWD2, but at least it was a little more ambitious of a title."

So much bullshit; the bull wants its shit back. Fanpatches mean shit. FO2 is nowhere near as buggy as either TOEE or BL. IWD series was as close to bugfree as games can posisbly be.

Stop the blatant fanboyism, SP. I actually though you were above that stuff. Ahh well. I can be wrong once in the blue moon.
 

DemonKing

Arcane
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
6,574
Saint_Proverbius said:
Both Lionheart and IWD2 both tanked harder than anything Troika has done, just in case you still want to go on about sales.

Lionheart I can't disagree about but IWD2 made a decent profit, from all accounts. I'm pretty sure it would have sold more copies than Arcanum, and possibly even Bloodlines (which never cracked the top ten, unlike IWD2). I guess TOEE might be the only thing that did slightly better than IWD2...but its hard to say.
 

NeutralMilkHotel

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Messages
389
Saint_Proverbius said:
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
Yep. This version of the song was used at the very end of Dr. Strangelove, which if you haven't seen, you must.

What?! YOU LIE!

Okay, maybe I haven't heard that one, but it's definitely not the Pink Floyd one.

A friend told me that Vera Lynn was a sort of war music icon for british troops in world war II. Vera Lynn sang that song that mrsmiley posted. The pink floyd song is just about her that quotes one of her lyrics, and most likely asking "vera, what has become of you, remember how you said that we would meet again some sunny day" since Roger Water's father died in WWII...


anyways...
 

Jed

Cipher
Joined
Nov 3, 2002
Messages
3,287
Location
Tech Bro Hell
Volourn said:
"However, Black Isle never came up with a character system, ever!" Special is property of Inetrplay's RPG Division aka BIS. Nice try there Troika fanboy.
SPECIAL was featured in Fallout, a game that came out at least a year before Black Isle existed. By your own logic, Troika must've created Fallout! OH NOES!!11
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,986
Special is property of Interplay's RPG Division aka BIS.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Volourn said:
"However, Black Isle never came up with a character system, ever!"

Special is property of Inetrplay's RPG Division aka BIS. Nice try there Troika fanboy.
Who gives a flying fuck who OWNS what?

"IWD2's implimentation of 3E anyone?"

Was pretty dman good. And? I dislike IWD2; but its rules implementaion is not one of the reasons.
lol Infinity Engine real time crap was never DnD-friendly.

Ahh well. I can be wrong once in the blue moon.
Judging by your posts, the moon is now officially blue.
 

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