Tyranicon's Theory of How Streamers are Causing Immeasurable Decline for RPGs

[turkishronin]

The biggest problem is Discord Trannium selling millions of copies not streamers playing horror games

 

[InD_ImaginE]

I don't think that people that watch a stream of a game then want to buy and play it.

It works great for roguelikes. Isaac did benefit greatly back in the day (and yt of course)

It also works for those walking horror sims and party games. Among Us, the Goose thing, Fall Guys.

But honestly those are rather the exception than the rule. Look at everyday top video games streaming in Twitch and most of them are competitive games or latest AAA blockbuster that doesn't really have direct interaction with audience. A game is popular in Twitch/Stream because it is just popular in general, not the other way around.

 

[BruceVC]

View attachment 33563



Ah you're not rude. I'm a no-name solodev with no real connections, and no money. I'm already more successful than I expected, especially since I'm -gag- in it for the art. If I get anywhere, it'll be in spite of everything in the world today.

And because of the power of tits.

Dont worry Tyr, Im very impressed with your vision for your game. You can count me in as a revenue stream..."go entertaining porn games "

 

[JarlFrank]

We can see this by simply looking at a simple comparison between two games: Disco Elysium, which sold millions of copies, only has an all-time peak of 25k viewers on Twitch, whereas the Mortuary Assistant, a stupid zoomer game where you walk around and pretend to be spooked by ghosts, netted an all-time pear of 111k on Twitch. And despite selling only a few hundred thousand copies.

But doesn't that kind of counter your point?

Disco Elysium barely had any streaming done compared to that other game, yet it sold many more copies. Having a million copies sold and only 25k Twitch viewers is better than having 100k Twitch viewers and only 100k copies sold, isn't it?

Disco Elysium managed to be a success because of its writing and its approach to player choice. There's a lot of fun stuff that can happen to your character, but it's all about experiencing it yourself. It's not half as engaging to watch someone else play it. You have to play it on your own to get the most out of it. The game did spawn plenty of fan art and memes though, which is a much better way to propagate a game of its kind than Let's Plays or livestreams.

And that's the thing about streamer bait games: those are usually cheap horror experiences or quirky multiplayer games where watching someone else play is as much or even more fun than playing yourself.
A good RPG will always be the opposite: it's more fun to play yourself than to watch someone else play it.

I do watch some competitive AoE2 matches, but I would never watch someone play Planescape Torment, Disco Elysium, or even Knights of the Chalice or Baldur's Gate, or Elder Scrolls games or Gothic. Because those aren't the kinds of games where it's fun to watch others play. It's more fun to play them yourself. I wanna be the one making the choices, exploring the world, braving the tough encounters.

 

[mondblut]

5. RPGs will be even more shit than they already are.

Not gonna happen for obvious reasons.

 

[mondblut]

Really just needs a big streamer with patrician RPG tastes and a patient audience or some RPG-lover with big boobs

That big streamer with patrician RPG tastes is hanging out with that altruistic billionaire with patrician RPG tastes we've been looking for. They are just waiting for Jesus to come and join them for a drink.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I don't think that people that watch a stream of a game then want to buy and play it.

They do...provided they like what they see, since it's the game itself and not an ad that only shows the cool parts.

There are viewers who will never buy anything, but they still contribute by word of mouth if they liked it.

 

[luj1]

I never understood streams and twitch. Better to play a game yourself than watch others playing it. Its bizarre.

 

[Tyranicon]

Tyranicon

You know what you have to do: You're gonna have to make your vampire smut game the Goddamned best RPG the world has ever seen! Anything short of greatness will mean defeat. Fail, and the twitch thots will bury you. Asmongold will stream Pentiment 2 and you will die in poverty. The path is clear. Godspeed.

That's the plan

Although I'll probably fail halfway and get addicted to coke or something.

. I'm a no-name solodev with no real connections, and no money. I'm already more successful than I expected, especially since I'm -gag- in it for the art. If I get anywhere, it'll be in spite of everything in the world today.

I remember not so long ago a french guy telling us how much he was making with his 3D sex game, 53500 euros a year after steam cut and taxes. For stuff like that https://www.lucie-adult-game.com/ that doesnt seems especially high effort, avisual novel nothing more, and grants 3.29X the minimum wages here. I dont think there's much streaming about this, nor even forum talk.
So you know what you have to do with your vampire rpg if you want money.

Oh yeah, no argument there. I've seen the most effortless sex games make bank, all you have to do is add some disgusting fetishes and borderline illegal stuff. Or furries.

I've decided early on I'm not going to do that, because I don't enjoy that. If I was in it for the money, I would've stayed at my high-paying corporate job, instead of quitting to do something as dumb as video games.

We can see this by simply looking at a simple comparison between two games: Disco Elysium, which sold millions of copies, only has an all-time peak of 25k viewers on Twitch, whereas the Mortuary Assistant, a stupid zoomer game where you walk around and pretend to be spooked by ghosts, netted an all-time pear of 111k on Twitch. And despite selling only a few hundred thousand copies.

But doesn't that kind of counter your point?

Disco Elysium barely had any streaming done compared to that other game, yet it sold many more copies. Having a million copies sold and only 25k Twitch viewers is better than having 100k Twitch viewers and only 100k copies sold, isn't it?

Ah, but my point was that Disco Elysium (despite the vitriol here) is a well-made game with great voice acting, great (if languorous) writing, and an actual studio behind it. Meanwhile Mortuary Assistant is... apparently made by one person and their website doesn't even work for me. Maybe I was too hard on that game, but it has a "first unity project" feel. And it still sold like 200k copies.

So I compared Disco (a big game) to MA (small game) to better show how indies are taking advantage of streaming platforms to generate sales, rather than relying on traditional virtues such as quality.

 

[S.torch]

If you make an RPG is for the passion. Obviously you also want food on your table by making them, but the initial drive to make an RPG is passional.
RPGs are already harder to make than almost any other genre. People that start making RPGs are crazies, hobos, or both.

I think there's little point on worrying about those things if you're an RPG developer. You usually just do your thing and you then start worrying about the rest.

 

[Harthwain]

with great voice acting

Eh, I am a big fan of great voice acting and I don't consider voice acting in Disco Elysium to be great. It's not bad, but not great either.

So I compared Disco (a big game) to MA (small game) to better show how indies are taking advantage of streaming platforms to generate sales, rather than relying on traditional virtues such as quality.

Sometimes a game just "clicks" with people and you can't really predict it. Look at Minecraft.

 

[JarlFrank]

Ah, but my point was that Disco Elysium (despite the vitriol here) is a well-made game with great voice acting, great (if languorous) writing, and an actual studio behind it. Meanwhile Mortuary Assistant is... apparently made by one person and their website doesn't even work for me. Maybe I was too hard on that game, but it has a "first unity project" feel. And it still sold like 200k copies.

So I compared Disco (a big game) to MA (small game) to better show how indies are taking advantage of streaming platforms to generate sales, rather than relying on traditional virtues such as quality.

Sure, but the important takeaway is that quality games will sell on their own virtues, even if they're not suited for streaming audiences at all. Disco's popularity was helped by its memeability instead, there's a shitload of memes and fanart about it that look interesting enough to entice people to play it. So the potential for viral marketing is there - it's just not through long-form streaming.

Action RPGs are a bit better for streaming, but even then they probably won't reach the same audiences as [Generic Horror Game #24244354353] because the generic horror games that make the streamers scream and jump from their seats, or the silly party games like Among Us which make streamers play against each other, provide more immediate viewer entertainment. It's not about the game, it's about watching someone have reactions to the thing they play. So streamer bait games are super simple and tailored to get players to react to something, due to jumpscares or other simple means.

But ultimately, the quality game will entice more people to play it, even if it entices fewer to watch others play it.

 

[Serus]

Look at a game like God of War Ragnarok as an example of a game that's built for streaming. Dogshit game to play, but I damn near watched half the games cutscenes on YouTube and enjoyed it. That's an example of something that's fun to stream, despite being a bad game, and I don't see how we could make RPGs more like it to increase their "streamability" without actively hurting their quality as a game.

It's also a game that you won't need to buy as a result of having seen it already, yes. That's the flaw of games where the creators were clearly just wanting to make a movie.

The only problem as i see otoh, is that this generation of indie developers raised on 1980s-1990s games/crpgs will eventually stop creating good content.

And by tihs, you mean they will eventually die, but by then, you will probably also have died.

No, not really. A person is the most creative only up until certain age. It's a fact of life/ After reaching that age most of people, in any creative field - not just games, become a... Vogel, so to speak. There are exceptions but not many. This point/age is less than the age at which one stops being interested in games. At least i think it works that way.
TL;DR: (Almost) No one makes good games at the age of 60+. Probably earlier.

 

[Serus]

I don't think that people that watch a stream of a game then want to buy and play it.

It works great for roguelikes action rogue-lites. Isaac did benefit greatly back in the day (and yt of course)

 

[ELEXmakesMeHard]

Action-RPGs such as Elden Ring, Vavra Chadsim, CP2077, the Witcher 3, and Skyrim, have done very well on Twitch. Although something tells me that isn't a consolation to anyone here.

One of the biggest western streamers (CohhCarnage) often streams games like Baldur's Gate & P:KM, and draws a good crowd (many loyal viewers I guess).

 

[octavius]

We have empirical evidence on this matter. Didn't Sawyer explicitly say that they went full VA on Deadfire because streamers didn't want to read everything aloud?

I guess targeting people who can read is not inclusive enough.

 

[ItsChon]

Action-RPGs such as Elden Ring, Vavra Chadsim, CP2077, the Witcher 3, and Skyrim, have done very well on Twitch. Although something tells me that isn't a consolation to anyone here.

One of the biggest western streamers (CohhCarnage) often streams games like Baldur's Gate & P:KM, and draws a good crowd (many loyal viewers I guess).

Elden Ring and KC:D are both meh games at best, with the latter three games being outright shit, so I don't see what point you're trying to make.

 

[Ravielsk]

This has more to do with most streamers being low effort clowns who will always rather make silly faces on camera rather than making a actually unique play-through of a content rich game. Which is a problem the streaming community sort of made for itself because it all started with fake screaming at Amnesia and so their audience is the type of person who expects "screaming at Amnesia" kind of streams.

However to play devil's advocate here and say that this is not automatically a path towards decline. If anything it promotes games that are focused on building a unique player experience instead of a novel super-glued to some basic DnD combat adaptation. That said since there is no universal and easy pattern to follow when making such a game I would not hold my breath.

 

[Skorpion]

At the end of the day if you are relying on reactions of actors to sell your game, you probably don't have a very good game.
Blame sales on marketing, blame marketing on people, blame people on society and be sure to blame society on culture.
Cream rises to the top. Always has, always will.

 

[Lucumo]

I remember not so long ago a french guy telling us how much he was making with his 3D sex game, 53500 euros a year after steam cut and taxes. For stuff like that https://www.lucie-adult-game.com/ that doesnt seems especially high effort, avisual novel nothing more, and grants 3.29X the minimum wages here. I dont think there's much streaming about this, nor even forum talk.
So you know what you have to do with your vampire rpg if you want money.

Yeah, it's crazy how crappy 3D Western porn games can make so much money. And the bar is low, like, extremely low. Just goes to show you how many degenerates with too much money there are.

I never understood streams and twitch. Better to play a game yourself than watch others playing it. Its bizarre.

Been around for a while and started with livestreaming websites in 2009 on Livestream, followed by Ustream, Justin.tv/Twitch.tv etc etc. It didn't really start with people streaming themselves playing. The biggest streams were typically events (getting a couple of hundred viewers) and streams of things you couldn't do yourself, like excellent competitive gaming. Personally, I started off watching DotA competitive games, then additionally started watching Starcraft: Brood War professional games (Korean restreams) and also got into watching speedrunning attempts live. The Brood War community was the biggest one around by far and it was thanks to them that Justin.tv/Twitch.tv became the most popular (and well, Ustream messing up, causing streamers to turn away). Eventually, the Brood War and early Starcraft 2 community got overshadowed by the speedrunning community which was then the biggest one around for a good while until eventually MOBAs took over (DotA 2, LoL mostly) and that hasn't really changed since. The variety streamers/cult of personality nonsense was always in the shadow of streamers doing things you couldn't do by yourself until it eventually outgrew it. Personally, I never got it either and still stick to watching the kind of stuff I did over ten years ago. It's just too bad that streaming habits have changed over time with the addition of mics (still the least annoying thing by far), face cams (urgh) and shit overlays. Livestreaming used to be a pretty cool thing the first couple of years until normies joined and ruined it for everyone. You could also say that the "Let's Play" crowd of Youtube merged with the livestreaming crowd and it had a profoundly negative effect.

 

[Skorpion]

I remember not so long ago a french guy telling us how much he was making with his 3D sex game, 53500 euros a year after steam cut and taxes. For stuff like that https://www.lucie-adult-game.com/ that doesnt seems especially high effort, avisual novel nothing more, and grants 3.29X the minimum wages here. I dont think there's much streaming about this, nor even forum talk.
So you know what you have to do with your vampire rpg if you want money.

Yeah, it's crazy how crappy 3D Western porn games can make so much money. And the bar is low, like, extremely low. Just goes to show you how many degenerates with too much money there are.

I never understood streams and twitch. Better to play a game yourself than watch others playing it. Its bizarre.

Been around for a while and started with livestreaming websites in 2009 on Livestream, followed by Ustream, Justin.tv/Twitch.tv etc etc. It didn't really start with people streaming themselves playing. The biggest streams were typically events (getting a couple of hundred viewers) and streams of things you couldn't do yourself, like excellent competitive gaming. Personally, I started off watching DotA competitive games, then additionally started watching Starcraft: Brood War professional games (Korean restreams) and also got into watching speedrunning attempts live. The Brood War community was the biggest one around by far and it was thanks to them that Justin.tv/Twitch.tv became the most popular (and well, Ustream messing up, causing streamers to turn away). Eventually, the Brood War and early Starcraft 2 community got overshadowed by the speedrunning community which was then the biggest one around for a good while until eventually MOBAs took over (DotA 2, LoL mostly) and that hasn't really changed since. The variety streamers/cult of personality nonsense was always in the shadow of streamers doing things you couldn't do by yourself until it eventually outgrew it. Personally, I never got it either and still stick to watching the kind of stuff I did over ten years ago. It's just too bad that streaming habits have changed over time with the addition of mics (still the least annoying thing by far), face cams (urgh) and shit overlays. Livestreaming used to be a pretty cool thing the first couple of years until normies joined and ruined it for everyone. You could also say that the "Let's Play" crowd of Youtube merged with the livestreaming crowd and it had a profoundly negative effect.

you are a perfect example of the twitch audience
devs reading this, this person will never give you money, they only give the money to the hot tubz
stop thinking that form of marketing makes you money
only market to it if your entire revenue is based on stupid infestors prebuying ala epic and not real buyers
if so.. well then, hot tubz it is!

 

[Lucumo]

I remember not so long ago a french guy telling us how much he was making with his 3D sex game, 53500 euros a year after steam cut and taxes. For stuff like that https://www.lucie-adult-game.com/ that doesnt seems especially high effort, avisual novel nothing more, and grants 3.29X the minimum wages here. I dont think there's much streaming about this, nor even forum talk.
So you know what you have to do with your vampire rpg if you want money.

Yeah, it's crazy how crappy 3D Western porn games can make so much money. And the bar is low, like, extremely low. Just goes to show you how many degenerates with too much money there are.

I never understood streams and twitch. Better to play a game yourself than watch others playing it. Its bizarre.

Been around for a while and started with livestreaming websites in 2009 on Livestream, followed by Ustream, Justin.tv/Twitch.tv etc etc. It didn't really start with people streaming themselves playing. The biggest streams were typically events (getting a couple of hundred viewers) and streams of things you couldn't do yourself, like excellent competitive gaming. Personally, I started off watching DotA competitive games, then additionally started watching Starcraft: Brood War professional games (Korean restreams) and also got into watching speedrunning attempts live. The Brood War community was the biggest one around by far and it was thanks to them that Justin.tv/Twitch.tv became the most popular (and well, Ustream messing up, causing streamers to turn away). Eventually, the Brood War and early Starcraft 2 community got overshadowed by the speedrunning community which was then the biggest one around for a good while until eventually MOBAs took over (DotA 2, LoL mostly) and that hasn't really changed since. The variety streamers/cult of personality nonsense was always in the shadow of streamers doing things you couldn't do by yourself until it eventually outgrew it. Personally, I never got it either and still stick to watching the kind of stuff I did over ten years ago. It's just too bad that streaming habits have changed over time with the addition of mics (still the least annoying thing by far), face cams (urgh) and shit overlays. Livestreaming used to be a pretty cool thing the first couple of years until normies joined and ruined it for everyone. You could also say that the "Let's Play" crowd of Youtube merged with the livestreaming crowd and it had a profoundly negative effect.

you are a perfect example of the twitch audience
devs reading this, this person will never give you money, they only give the money to the hot tubz
stop thinking that form of marketing makes you money
only market to it if your entire revenue is based on stupid infestors prebuying ala epic and not real buyers
if so.. well then, hot tubz it is!

Are you retarded?

 

[NaturallyCarnivorousSheep]

Good. The genre infested with storyfags simping all the kickstarters and ruining them before they have the chance to produce something good has to die. EXTERMINATE