Tyranny Pre-Release Thread

[Infinitron]

It's not unknown for traditional cultures to have women as matriarchal "masters of the household". Not quite the same thing as land ownership, but it's not that outrageous.

 

[Popiel]

It's not unknown for traditional cultures to have women as matriarchal "masters of the household". Not quite the same thing as land ownership, but it's not that outrageous.

No, it is in fact outrageous, because women may have played such a roles in many patriarchal households (early modern England for example), but that's as far from legal land ownership as you can go.

 

[SionIV]

It's not unknown for traditional cultures to have women as matriarchal "masters of the household". Not quite the same thing as land ownership, but it's not that outrageous.

No, it is in fact outrageous, because women may have played such a roles in many patriarchal households (early modern England for example), but that's as far from legal land ownership as you can go.

This.

It just screams 'Unique Setting' and 'Gender Equality'.

 

[Fry]

Would read nicer with a bit more leading. Also is Diplomat really a profession in a bronze/iron age setting?

Sure. Plenty of historical information demonstrating that. As long as leaders have had advisors and the need to deal with other leaders, there have been diplomats.

But were they "diplomats" or were they envoys aka high ranking officials and military figures sent on a specific mission?

Splitting hairs. There were certainly advisors in the bronze age who spent most of their lives dealing directly with foreign powers. If not officially diplomats, then diplomats in all but name.

 

[Zombra]

It's not unknown for traditional cultures to have women as matriarchal "masters of the household". Not quite the same thing as land ownership, but it's not that outrageous.

No, it is in fact outrageous, because women may have played such a roles in many patriarchal households (early modern England for example), but that's as far from legal land ownership as you can go.

I am also very angry that they took a historical example and extrapolated it into something somewhat larger in scope for their fictional setting. So very angry.

 

[Popiel]

There was never something like matriarchy. All societies across all ages were patriarchal up until very modern times, and in said very modern times non-patriarchal social models are still a novelty, and seem to not work out in terms of biological sustainability of population, hence they are sick and wrong by nature. If these hacks at Obsidian want to sell anyone social structure in which only females may legally own land (and this is a big fucking deal, like BIGGEST one there can be in bronze/iron age setting when comes to material goods, perhaps second only to control over ore), they are just... stupid. Simply stupid. And this setting is stupid.

 

[Infinitron]

This setting also has magic btw.

Personally I was expecting people to be triggered by Kyros' full equality of the sexes, not the Tiers' material inequality between the sexes which is actually pretty politically incorrect by today's standards.

 

[Popiel]

Magic shmagic, this is bad writing when you just say BECAUSE THERE'S MAGIC at everything in a fantasy setting.

Are you Obsidian employee or something?

 

[vonAchdorf]

Splitting hairs. There were certainly advisors in the bronze age who spent most of their lives dealing directly with foreign powers. If not officially diplomats, then diplomats in all but name.

We know from Egypt that there was extensive diplomatic conversation and messages sent back and forth, so that's certainly true. But I think for important missions it was required to sent some aristocrat of some importance, or in Rome's case some high ranking public official who not necessarily was a "career" diplomat. The U.S. copies this with the party donor ambassadors who aren't career diplomats either.

 

[Fry]

There was never something like matriarchy. All societies across all ages were patriarchal up until very modern times

Kinda depends how you define it. There's little evidence for human societies actually ruled by women, but matrilineal societies aren't that rare. I.e., societies in which heritage is passed through the female line, which in some cases included land ownership rights.

 

[vonAchdorf]

Personally I was expecting people to be triggered by Kyros' full equality of the sexes,.

Why? Isn't Kyros (and his laws) the evil guy of the setting?

 

[Popiel]

Kinda depends how you define it. There's little evidence for human societies actually ruled by women, but matrilineal societies aren't that rare. E.g., societies in which heritage is passed through the female line, which in some cases included land ownership rights.

What do you mean by matrilineal societies? Ones in which you can inherit through mother's line, or exclusively through one? Or one in which identity is passed that way, like some Jewish traditions?

 

[Delterius]

There was never something like matriarchy. All societies across all ages were patriarchal up until very modern times

Kinda depends how you define it. There's little evidence for human societies actually ruled by women, but matrilineal societies aren't that rare. E.g., societies in which heritage is passed through the female line, which in some cases included land ownership rights.

Not only that but women owning the estate doesn't mean that society is matriarchal. By custom, many parts of the Iberian peninsula held matrilineal claims in equality with patrilineal ones because those women of more important households still represented their families and because often times the hubby died at sea. Either at war or in trade. That custom was spread through a big part of especially the portuguese empire.

 

[Fry]

Kinda depends how you define it. There's little evidence for human societies actually ruled by women, but matrilineal societies aren't that rare. E.g., societies in which heritage is passed through the female line, which in some cases included land ownership rights.

What do you mean by matrilineal societies? Ones in which you can inherit through mother's line, or exclusively through one? Or one in which identity is passed that way, like some Jewish traditions?

Either/or. Both have existed in human cultures.

 

[Popiel]

Yes, they did, but that's not what I meant by matriarchal society. Power lies where it lies, and political power is this important one (or rather used to be). In that way human societies were always patriarchal, and it shows - in culture, art, religion, myth.

 

[Delterius]

Well, maybe this fantasy setting ruled by a woman overlord isn't a patriarchy.

 

[Alienman]

I kinda like the setting. I hope I can build a land-ship as a protest!

 

[CptMace]

Would read nicer with a bit more leading. Also is Diplomat really a profession in a bronze/iron age setting?

Sure. Plenty of historical information demonstrating that. As long as leaders have had advisors and the need to deal with other leaders, there have been diplomats.

But were they "diplomats" or were they envoys aka high ranking officials and military figures sent on a specific mission?

Come on you're nitpicking. Obviously, "diplomat" isn't a profession before the late modern era. Even today, it barely qualifies as a profession, you become one when you're appointed as one.

 

[Fry]

Yes, they did, but that's not what I meant by matriarchal society. Power lies where it lies, and political power is this important one (or rather used to be). In that way human societies were always patriarchal, and it shows - in culture, art, religion, myth.

As I said, there's little evidence for female-dominated cultures. But there have been plenty of female rulers in ancient times and later. You don't call that political power?

 

[Sannom]

Not only that but women owning the estate doesn't mean that society is matriarchal. By custom, many parts of the Iberian peninsula held matrilineal claims in equality with patrilineal ones because those women of more important households still represented their families and because often times the hubby died at sea. Either at war or in trade. That custom was spread through a big part of especially the portuguese empire.

That feels like the main inspiration for the Tiers, no? Men on the sea, ladies on land.

 

[Infinitron]

Secondary Expertise:



Secondary Expertise options include both entirely new options, and options that are also available as Primary Expertise, but with a lower skill bonus. I skipped the latter, but did manage to get a better look at Shock Spells.

 

[CptMace]

The only problem I see with this logic is that every map and video I've seen of the game world specifies a unique continent (?), so what is the sea worth exactly ? Beside fishes and coastal trade, which is pretty much unnecessary since there's a freaking pax mongolica in the game.

 

[SionIV]

It doesn't change the fact that it would be as far from historically correct as you could go. A few rare exceptions where a widow takes ownership of the family estate/land does not make up for the majority of cases where both parts are alive and the ownership of the land falls into the hands of the male. It would have been less outrageous if they had made up some mumbo jumbo about the women having a connection to the sea and being superior navigators. While it wouldn't be correct, it would be more believable than women owning ALL the LAND.

Not to mention the majority of resources are on land, you wouldn't even be able to build your ship unless you got the wood from trading with a woman, hoping she doesn't give you the middle finger. All that trading you're going to be doing, where exactly do you get these items? From the LAND.

- The people on the sea can't survive without resources from the land.
- The people on the land don't need shit from the sea.

 

[Infinitron]

Hey, you can tell yourself this - they got conquered for a reason, right?

 

[Delterius]

It doesn't change the fact that it would be as far from historically correct as you could go. A few rare exceptions where a widow takes ownership of the family estate/land does not make up for the majority of cases where both parts are alive and the ownership of the land falls into the hands of the male. It would have been less outrageous if they had made up some mumbo jumbo about the women having a connection to the sea and being superior navigators. While it wouldn't be correct, it would be more believable than women owning ALL the LAND.

Not quite. Widows are one part of it but inheritance is more important. Consider a second marriage. If your mother's estate (the one she inherited and/or is poised to inherit from her parents) fell under your father's ownership, then potential half brothers from second or even third marriages would get to take a piece of the pie. You wouldn't want that now, would you? Neither would your grandfather from your mother's side.

Imagine next that your mother or perhaps even one of your brothers and sisters got ties to some order, brotherhood or convent. Suddenly you've got Church people demanding their own piece of the pie.

There's also the issue that your father only has rights over a half of your mother's shit. If he could spend it all on his own funeral just to make it all a party, you know he probably would.

And God help you if all this shit wasn't sort out on her will and you have to go to the courts.

This is all on top of a sort of merchantile nobility that constantly sends its kids overseas for trade or some government post somewhere. In that sense, male sudden deaths are just part of the issue.