Game News Tyranny Released

[felipepepe]

Is this really a good example of C&C?

Those are event nodes, not outcomes. Also, notice there's both a "destroy casino" and a "rebuild casino" event - despite how the graph looks, events have special requirements. I.e., if you don't protect the Lecturer and make the language school open, all school-related quests will be locked out for this playthrought.

Getting some endings require a complex combination of events, it's way more elaborate than you think.

Not sure what you understand by "trash mob." What I mean by it is (1) a generic group of enemies (2) that's there only as filler, with no real plot-related reason to fight you. If it doesn't fulfil both criteria, it's not a trash mob

I played Tyranny up to the two drama queens fighting, and must say it felt very filler-ish. Being a war hero / commander / voice of Kairos and doing shit like "please kill those guys encamped over there" was ridiculous. Honestly, the gameplay & the setup don't match at all IMHO... you should've been commanding troops, not going out with 3 special snowflakes to do grunt work.

You say the game would be better with a higher quality combat, but from what I played I'd much rather prefer very few combat scenarios that are highly elaborate & full of C&C.

I.e., instead of raiding the village myself, hunting individual soldiers like a grunt, it should've been just one big battle, with bonuses & penalties depending on my choices. And have dire consequences - losing it meant not death & reload, but a punishent from Kairos & C&C. Soling it should make me feared. Ambushing them should give me a better starting position, etc.

 

[Kev Inkline]

Wasnt Prime Junta ejecting? or is this some fake eject thing all over again?

It was a premature ejection.

 

[Lurker King]

Wait, let me get this straight - something was leaked prematurely and Infinitron and Bubbles were involved?

If so, alarming, but fortunately this is just the first time, so there's hope it will not become a habit.

Prima Junta made a review about Tranny and mentioned AoD without having played it. We all know that some special individuals here, like Bubbles, are autists and they can't get their heads around the idea that someone can know something from hearsay. Thus, the review can't be published until PJ removes the line about AoD or play it.

TLDR Because autism

 

[Prime Junta]

I played Tyranny up to the two drama queens fighting, and must say it felt very filler-ish. Being a war hero / commander / voice of Kairos and doing shit like "please kill those guys encamped over there" was ridiculous. Honestly, the gameplay & the setup don't match at all IMHO... you should've been commanding troops, not going out with 3 special snowflakes to do grunt work.

You say the game would be better with a higher quality combat, but from what I played I'd much rather prefer very few combat scenarios that are highly elaborate & full of C&C.

I.e., instead of raiding the village myself, hunting individual soldiers like a grunt, it should've been just one big battle, with bonuses & penalties depending on my choices. And have dire consequences - losing it meant not death & reload, but a punishent from Kairos & C&C. Soling it should make me feared. Ambushing them should give me a better starting position, etc.

Ehh... maybe, but it would've been a completely different game; it's a bit of a stretch to say anything meaningful about it other than it sounds pretty cool and I'd certainly want to give it a try. But I don't think there was anything fundamentally wrong with the basic premise.

The way I experienced it, you are a grunt -- you're sent all by yourself to deliver a very special message from Kyros, and you are under Tunon's protection which means the archons in place won't mess with you directly, but other than that there's nothing all that special about you. It's not like you start out as a general; it's more like you're a spy or James Bond style special agent at most. (And an obviously expendable spy at that, given the content of the message you're delivering.*) So traipsing around with your special snowflakes didn't feel all that out of place. At least no more so than in most cRPGs.

As to the combat, I'd just take better combat in any quantity TYVM. Fix that and we can discuss whether there's too much or too little of it.

* About you being expendable:

Spoiler

Later on, you will may find out that everybody sent out to deliver an Edict has died horribly within a year or so of doing it. I.e. Tunon knowingly sent you on a suicide mission. Ofc it turns out you're a really special snowflake, being the first Fatebinder to complete the same Edict you delivered, so it's implied this won't necessarily apply to you.

Also, consider the content of the Edict. Kyros just wants the place taken, or everybody dead, either one is fine; in fact it's implied that she would've preferred that outcome as it would've rid her of two armies she no longer needs that would likely have started causing problems once the war of conquest is over. So why would she start punishing or rewarding you or anyone else based on the piddly little decisions you take on the way? She does start to pay attention at the endgame, but that's only because you unexpectedly develop an ability that could actually challenge her dominance.

But, basically yeah, expendable, not someone who's expected to command armies or even get Kyros seriously upset if someone... expends you. Tunon probably as it would be an affront to his authority.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

Do you get to fight in a Phalanx at any point?

No. Nor do you get to fight in a big pitched battle in an open field where you'd find one.

They do rhapsodise about them though so it's clearly a major thing in the world.

Edit: fighting in a phalanx would probably not work all that well as there's pretty much zero agency in it. Fighting against a phalanx would be cool though. Shame they didn't manage to put that in, would prob have required some fairly freaky AI scripting.

Why is there a phalanx in a world where magic is so strong and devastating anyway, wouldn't that maximize casualties? I ain't no general but if had an army, in a world where spells could annihilate people fighting in close quarters by the hundreds within seconds, I'd probably put them in loose formation.

 

[Lacrymas]

I am interested to see PJ's review, but I would also appreciate a formal review by someone who has enjoyed AoD.

If there are similarities, and Tyranny is an AoD-for-the-masses, it would be fun and informative to read an analysis on just that.

Meh, the similarities are skin-deep at best. AoD has actual research done to back it up, Tyranny's setting was written on a napkin on a lazy afternoon. There were reasons the Greco-Roman world was what it was (down to the extravagant armors), it wasn't just random chance that created it. I don't get Tyranny's setting at all, nothing seems connected, let alone logical. Everything can be hand-waved by magic and that's what seems to be driving the world, but it's not explored. I'm not sure what it wants to be, Absurdian probably didn't know either. It's AoD-like in the sense that they wanted to go the C&C route, but AoD didn't create that concept. Just being a "pre-Medieval setting" tells us nothing because there were a lot of pre-Medieval cultures. It can only be compared to AoD if you've only played a bit in Teron and have no idea how the setting works *cough*, or have no idea how settings (maybe even real life societies and cultures?) work in general and everything (culture, politics, economy, philosophy, architecture) besides the color palette is ignored.

 

[Mustawd]

So is this the new review format? Reviewer writes review, review gets leaked in an exclusive preview that lasts mere seconds, then a Q&A with the reviewer, and then finally the review gets posted?

Yah, ok. Makes sense.

 

[Neanderthal]

It's not like you start out as a general; it's more like you're a spy or James Bond style special agent at most. (And an obviously expendable spy at that, given the content of the message you're delivering.*) So traipsing around with your special snowflakes didn't feel all that out of place. At least no more so than in most cRPGs.

Aren't you actin as a general at beginnin o game?

 

[Shadenuat]

The events in AoD depend on the path you take.

AoD has a lot of branching, lots of choice. It's great game. But by design it's not a completely branching game. You follow from one city to the next. The siege of Ganezzar, generally, happens no matter what you do. You are pushed by the game to follow through a particular sequence of events/quests. Your only choice between endings is either final temple or death.

It's not a rock into AoD, I just want to point out that very few games actually make branching plot their CORE design on systemic level. Which is why people may think that Tyranny is about C&C or "branching". But it isn't, and playing games like WotS (and AoD, to a degree) would show where designers tried to make a game about choice, and where designers and players take illusion for a choice.

 

[felipepepe]

It's not like you start out as a general; it's more like you're a spy or James Bond style special agent at most. (And an obviously expendable spy at that, given the content of the message you're delivering.*) So traipsing around with your special snowflakes didn't feel all that out of place. At least no more so than in most cRPGs.

Aren't you actin as a general at beginnin o game?

^Exactly. The CYOA segment at the start has you commanding troops, managing supply lines, deciding the fate of populations, etc...

Going from that to errand boy seems pretty dumb. And regarding being expendable, Kyros edict also means both his top generals will die if they fail him - everyone is expendable.

I think Obsidian had some good ideas here, but shoved them inside a by the numbers IE-like game reusing the engine they already had. The setting and story simply do not match the gameplay. In that sense you could say it's like PS:T, but you could spend hours exploring Sigil without going into combat - and some battles were more set pieces than actual challenges.

 

[Prime Junta]

Why is there a phalanx in a world where magic is so strong and devastating anyway, wouldn't that maximize casualties? I ain't no general but if had an army, in a world where spells could annihilate people fighting in close quarters by the hundreds within seconds, I'd probably put them in loose formation.

Not with the kind of magic you're wielding. You barely even notice if someone lobs a fireball at you. Whereas Edicts are like nukes, they'll wipe you out whatever you do -- yet nukes didn't make conventional warfare obsolete.

Aren't you actin as a general at beginnin o game?

Nope. You choose which location in the invasion you're going to, how you rule in disputes between the generals, and occasionally volunteer to do Heroic Deeds(tm), but you're not commanding, those decisions are handed out to you as givens. Closest RL analogue I can think of is political commissar.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

^Exactly.

You are not a general. You usually fight with the normal grunts in combat and people frequently look down on you when you try to assert your authority, calling you a mere legal clerk. The decisions that you make from the very beginning are those of an arbiter between the bickering factions. You are Tunons agent and are there to make rulings when the Archons get into conflict, that does not make you a general. Later during the conquest, you become a mayor and judge or military advisor. At one point you assume the role of general or at least you command armies but only because you are the highest ranking officer after you got nuked by mages.

 

[Irenaeus]

Your only choice between endings is either final temple or death.

You should actually play the game.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

Not with the kind of magic you're wielding. You barely even notice if someone lobs a fireball at you.

Nah, thats probably just a disconnect between lore and mechanics, I don't think that the spells are supposed to be harmless on the narrative level of the game.

 

[Prime Junta]

Not with the kind of magic you're wielding. You barely even notice if someone lobs a fireball at you.

Nah, thats probably just a disconnect between lore and mechanics, I don't think that the spells are supposed to be harmless on the narrative level of the game.

Actually I think they are. Both the Disfavored and the Chorus regard mages as support units, nice to have but not decisive. It's quite clear the military campaign itself was resolved by conventional fighting, not mage duels. Edicts are so fucking scary because compared to normal magic they're "like a hurricane compared to a raindrop" as somebody or other puts it. The most militarily effective "normal magic" we come close to is a Tidecaster causing a sudden flood which drowns a force attempting to cross a small river. There's no suggestion of anything that could put a bigger dent in a phalanx than, say, massed archers.

 

[Shadenuat]

You should actually play the game.

M-hm.

Not sure what you understand by "trash mob." What I mean by it is (1) a generic group of enemies (2) that's there only as filler, with no real plot-related reason to fight you. If it doesn't fulfil both criteria, it's not a trash mob.

This is different from "trash combat" which just means "bad combat," and Tyranny certainly had that a-plenty.

I'm not sure why you separate narrative element from it's gameplay part so often when they're obviously parts of the same. Are samy encounters should be excused just by the factor of what clothing soldiers are wearing, while some sort of cool secondary fight is a trash mob because it's not related to the main plot of the game? Would a mob cease to be trash because someone wrote "I am MAD, so I will ATTACK YOU ANYWAY!"?

Well, even by your definition, there are still bane fights in ancient ruins copy-pasted in the same style as trolls and oozes in PoE.

Closest RL analogue I can think of is political commissar.

You are an errand boy, or hero for players who don't want to be bad, and sometimes a judge when developers are not lazy and give you some dumb mediation quest.

 

[Neanderthal]

Aren't you actin as a general at beginnin o game?

Nope. You choose which location in the invasion you're going to, how you rule in disputes between the generals, and occasionally volunteer to do Heroic Deeds(tm), but you're not commanding, those decisions are handed out to you as givens. Closest RL analogue I can think of is political commissar.

So you command ultimate authority over generals in disputes then? Sounds a bit fuckin stupid to be honest, why not have an ultimate field commander in that case?

Theres a few good scenes in Ten Thousand by Paul Kearney where Macht Hoplites gather in their Centons (war companies named after the cauldrons they cook stew in) and vote on who will lead all the Centons in battle, an be uncontested when in conflict, but relinquich power back to Centons after a battle. Might have been nice to have somethin like this as a cultural nod.

Hows arms an armour anyway, is it authentic Bronze Age wi spear an Argive/Pelta dominatin or loadsa medieval shit as usual?

 

[Prime Junta]

I'm not sure why you separate narrative element from it's gameplay part so often when they're obviously parts of the same.

Ideally they are. But even if they're not, you can have a branching story with C&C and discuss that.

Are samy encounters should be excused just by the factor of what clothing soldiers are wearing, while some sort of cool secondary fight is a trash mob because it's not related to the main plot of the game? Would a mob cease to be trash because someone wrote "I am MAD, so I will ATTACK YOU ANYWAY!"?

No. Two criteria. If it's a cool fight -- as in, not a generic group of mooks -- then it's not a trash mob, because of criterion 1. And if it's a generic mob that's there for a good story reason, then it's not a trash mob because of criterion 2. "I am MAD, so I will ATTACK YOU ANYWAY!" does not constitute a good story reason.

If a generic mob is defending a bridge you need to cross to occupy a village which is blocking your advance on a citadel which you need to take OR YOU WILL DIE!!!1 is not a trash mob, because of criterion 2.

Well, even by your definition, there are still bane fights in ancient ruins copy-pasted in the same style as trolls and oozes in PoE.

Yes. Yes, there are. The Tyranny dungeons are just sad.

 

[Prime Junta]

u command ultimate authority over generals in disputes then? Sounds a bit fuckin stupid to be honest, why not have an ultimate field commander in that case?

To maintain civilian control over the military? That's why the Bolshies put politruks in charge. Rather handy from Kyros's POV -- an ultimate field commander would risk being too good at his job and eventually winning over the loyalties of both generals, thereby becoming powerful enough to constitute a threat. A politruk everybody despises who only avoids a sharp pain in the back because of your protection is much safer.

Hows arms an armour anyway, is it authentic Bronze Age wi spear an Argive/Pelta dominatin or loadsa medieval shit as usual?

Cosmetically Bronze/Iron Age, but there are derpy anachronisms like greatswords. You do see lots of spears, falx, and such, you can play as an anime peltast lobbing javelins all over the place (and there are other similar skirmishers around), there are plenty of bronze swords with the right leaf-shaped blades, and armour designs do have a period look.

 

[Lurker King]

The events in AoD depend on the path you take.

AoD has a lot of branching, lots of choice. It's great game. But by design it's not a completely branching game. You follow from one city to the next. The siege of Ganezzar, generally, happens no matter what you do. You are pushed by the game to follow through a particular sequence of events/quests. Your only choice between endings is either final temple or death.

If you kill Gaelius or destroy Maadoran, the siege doesn't happen.

If you become a God, you don't have the final temple.

I agree that the final temple being mandatory for most backgrounds sucks and goes against the general design approach, but you also have four (five?) different endings at the final temple. Teron alone has more branching storylines than most cRPGs.

 

[Lurker King]

I wrote a treatise about AoD and Tyranny

Lacrymas deserve an scholar autist tag.

 

[Neanderthal]

To maintain civilian control over the military? That's why the Bolshies put politruks in charge. Rather handy from Kyros's POV -- an ultimate field commander would risk being too good at his job and eventually winning over the loyalties of both generals, thereby becoming powerful enough to constitute a threat. A politruk everybody despises who only avoids a sharp pain in the back because of your protection is much safer.

Cosmetically Bronze/Iron Age, but there are derpy anachronisms like greatswords. You do see lots of spears, falx, and such, you can play as an anime peltast lobbing javelins all over the place (and there are other similar skirmishers around), there are plenty of bronze swords with the right leaf-shaped blades, and armour designs do have a period look.

So you end up commandin campaign like a general then when other two generals don't wanna, still sounds fuckin stupid to me. Piss poor way to settle a province an institute infrastructure an rule. Better to give it to one general an let him rule, sounds like these Edicts'll keep him in line anyway. Assume each province'll have a governer or somethin similar, can't see central authority workin in such a big empire.

Pity they can't stick to period they're tryin to evoke wi armoury.

 

[Prime Junta]

So you end up commandin campaign like a general then when other two generals don't wanna, still sounds fuckin stupid to me.

Nah, that's not the same as commanding. You don't have the authority to order anyone to do anything; you can only break deadlocks, issue rulings if Kyros' laws are broken, or intervene in disputes if all parties agree to hand it to you.

Piss poor way to settle a province an institute infrastructure an rule. Better to give it to one general an let him rule, sounds like these Edicts'll keep him in line anyway. Assume each province'll have a governer or somethin similar, can't see central authority workin in such a big empire.

That's exactly what Kyros did. Tunon is the one he put in charge of the Tiers. The problem is that at the start of the game, there are two generals and only one un-ruled province left, and you get stuck in the middle of their dispute. They can't agree to split it, and they know that whoever ends up on top, the other one ends up dogmeat.

Spoiler

At the end of the game, Kyros suspends the prohibition against fighting between his generals, and rules that whoever is last standing gets to rule.

 

[Neanderthal]

Nah, that's not the same as commanding. You don't have the authority to order anyone to do anything; you can only break deadlocks, issue rulings if Kyros' laws are broken, or intervene in disputes if all parties agree to hand it to you.

That's exactly what Kyros did. Tunon is the one he put in charge of the Tiers. The problem is that at the start of the game, there are two generals and only one un-ruled province left, and you get stuck in the middle of their dispute. They can't agree to split it, and they know that whoever ends up on top, the other one ends up dogmeat.

Spoiler

At the end of the game, Kyros suspends the prohibition against fighting between his generals, and rules that whoever is last standing gets to rule.

So you make military decisions when other two can't be arsed, sounds like a general to me, despite all tryin to seperate it.

Why other two there if this Tunons in command? Send other two generals to rule, administrate another province, bound to be other uses for armies across empire, can't be that Tiers is only place where someats happenin.

Thought he'd already decided on Tunon rulin?

Gotta say this all sounds a bit illogical an arsepulled so far.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

Ashe and Nerat are in joined military command, Tunon seems to be in civilian (and supreme) command but not bother with military decisions. Fatebinder is Tunons politkom to oversee the military command. I don't know what the problem is.

Dude, just play the game and see for yourself, will ya?