Development Info Underlair is Under Construction

[Ularis Badler]

And no, not everything has to be randomized. Imagine a scenario like this in a game that models very basic needs. It spawns in some kobolds on the edge of town. They're hungry, so they're attracted to a nearby farm with livestock. They invade the farm. That triggers the family on the farm's need for safety which causes them to run towards the nearby town. This allows the player to bump in to them and get the "quest" to clear the kobolds. The only random part of that is where the kobolds spawn. The rest of that is happenstance on where things are in the world and having a needs based AI. The only problem is dealing with the speech which communicates to the player that he can intervene to fix the problem.

Agreed. And you are pretty much describing, to a certain degree, what quests in underlair might be. The resulting quality of quests depend on the complexity I'm willing to go about them.

Imagine this algorithm for quests.

Step 1: define type.

1. Fight.
2. Fetch.
3. Social interaction.
4. Save / help.
5. Find.
6. Courier
7. Explore.
8. Hunt down.

Step 2: define criteria

1. How many NPCs will be involved in the quest?
2. How many check points will be needed to visit?
3. How many dialog options will be available.
4. How many failure conditions are there?
5. Is there a time limit?
6. Are there necessary items in the inventory?
7. Will your objective shift location?
8. What cascade events can follow?

Step 3: Conclusion

1. What are the consequences of completing the quest?
2. What are the consequences of failing the quest?
3. How will the quest's outcome impact on settlements?
4. How will the quest's outcome impact on the region?
5. Will there be an impact on the economy?
6. Will a particular type of creature go extinct?
7. Which NPCs will praise or hate your actions?

Of course that, the main challenge is keeping the story of the quest interesting. The computer cannot simply create a story out of nothing so, predefined chunks of predefined text will be used.
But the quest's story itself is not the core focus of Underlair, but the execution and the challenge pulling it off.

The above is all theoretically. I haven't put that much thought. It's actually something I will leave for last.

 

[Ularis Badler]

Why is everything son shiny?? It hurt my eyes...

Good luck
Looks great anyway apart form brightness...

You can always turn it off, assuming your referring to the bloom post effect filter, which causes light bleeding to close objects.

 

[Excommunicator]

Thank you Saint_Proverbius, I didn't even know that site existed, am looking into the games section and seeing lots of blobbers to choose from.

They cover grid-based only??? Decline

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Toss in a construction set.

There is no construction set planed. However, you will actually have the ability to customize the world's generation algorithm when starting a game. This means that, you will be able to:

• Define the world size.
• Define the region size.
• Content abundancy by type.
• Points of interesting amount.
• Settlement size and frequency.
• Underlairs size and frequency.
• Loot control.
• Permadeath On / Off.
• Difficulty settings for damage.

This list is prone to change when feedback will start to kick in.
Modifying these settings will drastically affect the game play, that's why there will be a "recommended" setup.
The recommended setup will pretty much be built upon the feedback from players. I will need to see what people enjoy most about it, hoping to achieve the "ideal" experience.

Ah! A little bit of the Dungeon Hack-like vibe I feel. I played the hell out of that game.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Of course that, the main challenge is keeping the story of the quest interesting. The computer cannot simply create a story out of nothing so, predefined chunks of predefined text will be used.
But the quest's story itself is not the core focus of Underlair, but the execution and the challenge pulling it off.

The above is all theoretically. I haven't put that much thought. It's actually something I will leave for last.

I don't know if you've heard of it or remember it, but there was a mecha roguelike called Gearhead(Wow, upon search, he's making a new Gearhead set to release on Steam). Anyway, it actually generated the main quest out of story subsets. I didn't even noticed this was the case the first time I played the game. It wasn't until I decided I wanted to try something different character-wise and started a new game that I noticed this. It's basically the story equivalent of what you're doing with the tiles, but acknowledging that most of the players will never see most of your work. It worked really well, though, in my opinion.

You're right, though. The most difficult part of all that is keeping the player in the illusion that what they're seeing isn't a constantly repeating event. If it happens too often or is too generic in the presentation, the player is going to get annoyed by it pretty quickly.

 

[Ularis Badler]

Toss in a construction set.

There is no construction set planed. However, you will actually have the ability to customize the world's generation algorithm when starting a game. This means that, you will be able to:

• Define the world size.
• Define the region size.
• Content abundancy by type.
• Points of interesting amount.
• Settlement size and frequency.
• Underlairs size and frequency.
• Loot control.
• Permadeath On / Off.
• Difficulty settings for damage.

This list is prone to change when feedback will start to kick in.
Modifying these settings will drastically affect the game play, that's why there will be a "recommended" setup.
The recommended setup will pretty much be built upon the feedback from players. I will need to see what people enjoy most about it, hoping to achieve the "ideal" experience.

Ah! A little bit of the Dungeon Hack-like vibe I feel. I played the hell out of that game.

^^

 

[Ularis Badler]

The most difficult part of all that is keeping the player in the illusion that what they're seeing isn't a constantly repeating event. If it happens too often or is too generic in the presentation, the player is going to get annoyed by it pretty quickly.

Absolutely! But then again, it depends on what the player prioritizes. I, for instance, I play games for the gameplay; I really don't care much about stories anymore; I prefer sandboxes that just give me "tools" and freedom to do whatever I please: I'll create my own story. If anyone is looking for a game with good story-telling, forget Underlair; this one has another agenda.

As for RPGs, nowadays, I find myself completely unable to play scripted games, except for good old classic ones (for some reason). God knows how I really tried to play Pillars of Eternity. This game is very well executed, nicely polished and has a great story, and yet I die of boredom whenever I try to play it. This is a type of game I played so much back in the 90's that it just grew old to me, at least this is the most suitable explanation that I can think of, that and the fact I'm getting old. RPGs for me, they are all about crafting and ascending your character, finding loot, explore places, vanquish foes, and challenge yourself to build new tactics to overcome obstacles <- Underlair in a nutshell.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

This looks damn good.

 

[luj1]

There is no construction set planed. However, you will actually have the ability to customize the world's generation algorithm when starting a game. This means that, you will be able to:

• Define the world size.
• Define the region size.
• Content abundancy by type.
• Points of interesting amount.
• Settlement size and frequency.
• Underlairs size and frequency.
• Loot control.
• Permadeath On / Off.
• Difficulty settings for damage.

Please include mutators. Please.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Absolutely! But then again, it depends on what the player prioritizes. I, for instance, I play games for the gameplay; I really don't care much about stories anymore; I prefer sandboxes that just give me "tools" and freedom to do whatever I please: I'll create my own story. If anyone is looking for a game with good story-telling, forget Underlair; this one has another agenda.

As for RPGs, nowadays, I find myself completely unable to play scripted games, except for good old classic ones (for some reason). God knows how I really tried to play Pillars of Eternity. This game is very well executed, nicely polished and has a great story, and yet I die of boredom whenever I try to play it. This is a type of game I played so much back in the 90's that it just grew old to me, at least this is the most suitable explanation that I can think of, that and the fact I'm getting old. RPGs for me, they are all about crafting and ascending your character, finding loot, explore places, vanquish foes, and challenge yourself to build new tactics to overcome obstacles <- Underlair in a nutshell.

I'll admit that I played Kenshi 1000x longer than I played Pillars of Eternity. Mount & Blade: Warband took up a lot of my time as well, even though I suck at it. I think part of the reason why I've moved towards those games is because I'm doing what I want to do as opposed to following what quests the NPCs want me to do. In either of the two games I mention, for whatever reason, something comes along while I'm minding my business and pisses me off. They might attack one of my towns or ambush me or something that gets in the way of me just doing what I'm doing. The second afterwards, I have a new goal. I'm going to beat someone's ass. I might know where that group is, I might have to hunt for them. Maybe while I'm stomping them, something else interrupts me so I have to shift what I'm doing. At any point, I can decide to do something else or continue. Maybe rather than attack, I'll make more defenses and turtle in. So, basically, I feel like I'm in the driver's seat. This is my world and I'll do things the way I want to do them in order to survive and thrive.

 

[Ularis Badler]

There is no construction set planed. However, you will actually have the ability to customize the world's generation algorithm when starting a game. This means that, you will be able to:

• Define the world size.
• Define the region size.
• Content abundancy by type.
• Points of interesting amount.
• Settlement size and frequency.
• Underlairs size and frequency.
• Loot control.
• Permadeath On / Off.
• Difficulty settings for damage.

Please include mutators. Please.

That is definitely a possibility.

 

[Ularis Badler]

Absolutely! But then again, it depends on what the player prioritizes. I, for instance, I play games for the gameplay; I really don't care much about stories anymore; I prefer sandboxes that just give me "tools" and freedom to do whatever I please: I'll create my own story. If anyone is looking for a game with good story-telling, forget Underlair; this one has another agenda.

As for RPGs, nowadays, I find myself completely unable to play scripted games, except for good old classic ones (for some reason). God knows how I really tried to play Pillars of Eternity. This game is very well executed, nicely polished and has a great story, and yet I die of boredom whenever I try to play it. This is a type of game I played so much back in the 90's that it just grew old to me, at least this is the most suitable explanation that I can think of, that and the fact I'm getting old. RPGs for me, they are all about crafting and ascending your character, finding loot, explore places, vanquish foes, and challenge yourself to build new tactics to overcome obstacles <- Underlair in a nutshell.

I'll admit that I played Kenshi 1000x longer than I played Pillars of Eternity. Mount & Blade: Warband took up a lot of my time as well, even though I suck at it. I think part of the reason why I've moved towards those games is because I'm doing what I want to do as opposed to following what quests the NPCs want me to do. In either of the two games I mention, for whatever reason, something comes along while I'm minding my business and pisses me off. They might attack one of my towns or ambush me or something that gets in the way of me just doing what I'm doing. The second afterwards, I have a new goal. I'm going to beat someone's ass. I might know where that group is, I might have to hunt for them. Maybe while I'm stomping them, something else interrupts me so I have to shift what I'm doing. At any point, I can decide to do something else or continue. Maybe rather than attack, I'll make more defenses and turtle in. So, basically, I feel like I'm in the driver's seat. This is my world and I'll do things the way I want to do them in order to survive and thrive.

Oh man, Kenshi and Mount & Blade: Warband. Two of my favorite sandbox games ever. You have pretty much described the in-game possibilities that makes them special to me.
Good to know you are a fan of these types of games!

 

[luj1]

That is definitely a possibility.

It did wonders for Dominions, Wake of Gods and even FPS games such as UT99. Simply, it increases replayability and fun tremendously.

 

[Ularis Badler]

That is definitely a possibility.

It did wonders for Dominions, Wake of Gods and even FPS games such as UT99. Simply, it increases replayability and fun tremendously.

When the time comes and after Underlair's demo is released, I will ask people what kind of mutators they would like to have. I'm sure people will come up with cool ideas, perhaps even features I should have considered right from the start.

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

Procedural this, random that... a huge red flag for me. When will the devs stop settling for throwing random shit at me instead of properly designing levels, quests, encounters...

And I will extend: creators will not stop doing things because someone doesn't like what they are doing. You cannot create something and expect everyone to enjoy it. What you are basically doing is, walking into a whiskey store only to complain you don't like whiskey.

That is definitely not what I am doing. In your whiskey analogy, the closest would be "I prefer a different kind of whiskey."

I know what procedural generation is and you are rather naive thinking people will not recognize it if you don't tell them. Games who claim to offer unique experiences and replayability because of it... I tend to drop these halfway through, bored by the algorithm. That doesn't mean you should be obliged to manually put 7 coins and a handkerchief in every peasants pocket, but rather that delegating fundamental things like level and quest creation to an algorithm is a huge step down from what a competent person can do.

And to extend: I never told you you should stop doing something, I merely pointed out a feature I don't like about recent games, you mighty "creator" you.

 

[Ularis Badler]

And to extend: I never told you you should stop doing something, I merely pointed out a feature I don't like about recent games, you mighty "creator" you.

*-*/\--/\~: When will the devs stop settling for throwing random shit at me instead of properly designing levels, quests, encounters...
Ularis Badler: Creators will not stop doing things because someone doesn't like what they are doing. You cannot create something and expect everyone to enjoy it. What you are basically doing is, walking into a whiskey store only to complain you don't like whiskey.

I don't discuss personal preferences but one thing is saying that you don't like a particular feature, while another thing is going about saying devs should stop doing that very feature you don't like, which your clearly did. It's right there for everyone to read, hence my whiskey comparison. When I explained the algorithm, I described the method used for Underlair, which uses a combination of hand crafted prefabs and procedural functionality and I did my best trying explaining it, having no clue of how knowledgeable you are about the subject, and yet you took issue with that, calling me naive for doing it so.

If you wish you add anything or suggesting an alternative / compromise, I'm all here for you. However, I won't take part in your overhauling thought process of "I said this; I didn't say that; I used these words; but not those words; I mean this and not that" - we all know what was said.

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

And to extend: I never told you you should stop doing something, I merely pointed out a feature I don't like about recent games, you mighty "creator" you.

*-*/\--/\~: When will the devs stop settling for throwing random shit at me instead of properly designing levels, quests, encounters...
Ularis Badler: Creators will not stop doing things because someone doesn't like what they are doing. You cannot create something and expect everyone to enjoy it. What you are basically doing is, walking into a whiskey store only to complain you don't like whiskey.

I don't discuss personal preferences but one thing is saying that you don't like a particular feature, while another thing is going about saying devs should stop doing that very feature you don't like, which your clearly did. It's right there for everyone to read, hence my whiskey comparison. When I explained the algorithm, I described the method used for Underlair, which uses a combination of hand crafted prefabs and procedural functionality and I did my best trying explaining it, having no clue of how knowledgeable you are about the subject, and yet you took issue with that, calling me naive for doing it so.

If you wish you add anything or suggesting an alternative / compromise, I'm all here for you. However, I won't take part in your overhauling thought process of "I said this; I didn't say that; I used these words; but not those words; I mean this and not that" - we all know what was said.

Yes, "stop using feature X" is what I said. Not that you should stop creating stuff or not make a game and get a job as an accountant, which would fit your whiskey analogy. Though if you "know what was said" and refuse any clarification about the actual meaning, you won't agree.

I called you naive for thinking what people will not recognize that procedural generation is being extensively used.

Alternative was also suggested when I said that algorithm should not be unleashed on core features like level and quest design. If you're dead set on that, good for you. I'll just buy something else and we'll both be happy.

 

[felipepepe]

Looks amazing. I'm also in the camp that would prefer a hand-made campaign, but a lot of that comes from bad experiences with Dungeon Hack, which IIRC is the only proc-gen blobber out there. Would be interesting to see the concept revisited, especially by someone who recognize the genius of Wizards & Warriors.

Another thing to consider is that, Underlair's premise doesn't revolve around puzzles nor good dungeon layouts. The premise revolves mainly around combat tactics / strategy (no side stepping dancing will be featured), exploration and survival. Survival is not about gridding wood and stone to build shelters but surviving the explorations before you can reach the next settlement for resupply and probably save your progress (if you have the item that allows you that).

Would be fair to say then that it's a roguelike like ToME with blobber gameplay, rather than a procedurally generated Dungeon Master, right?

Sounds nitpicky, but I think it's a HUGE distinction to make, especially when promoting it.

 

[Ularis Badler]

Would be fair to say then that it's a roguelike like ToME with blobber gameplay, rather than a procedurally generated Dungeon Master, right?

I clearly understand your point, but it depends on how you approach it. If you see an image of Underlair without knowing more about it, you will most likely label it as a dungeon crawler / Dungeon Master clone.
When you will see the combat, you or someone else will probably label it as Fallout in blobber.
When people will see the hosting configuration settings, they can even also label it 7DTD meets Dungeon Master.

I had people describing it as a clone of Might & Magic X, a clone of Legend of Grimrock, Roguelike in 3D and now ToME in blobber.
This is something that each person will be perceive differently. It's not up to me to judge how others are willing to describe Underlair. All I can do and have already done, is sharing my own description of the game, which considers several aspects that currently, only I am aware of them all.

 

[urmom]

Procedural generation isn't necessarily random. It just means an algorithm of some type was used. Could be a non-PRNG algorithm, like a spiral or fractal or spline, etc.

Townscaper is a perfect example.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1291340/Townscaper/

 

[Darth Canoli]

Why is everything son shiny?? It hurt my eyes...

Good luck
Looks great anyway apart form brightness...

Looks like you don't see much of the daylight.

Spoiler

Basement dweller/sex worker spotted...