Development Info Underrail 2: Infusion Dev Log #9: New Combat System

[Bruno]

If anyone can make it work it is Styg.
The current system is not perfect either, take for example the Arena. If you win initiative, you win the combat, there is no opportunity to rebound.

 

[MessiahMan]

I can't help but think a we-go type system like in Brigade E5, but with less jank would be cool. Part of me is skeptical, sure, the obvious slam dunk would have been nice, but this has a chance to be nicer.

 

[ciox]

they're not evolving the combat, they're going back lmao

Sort of, that was unironic RTWP, whereas now you get roguelike micro-turns.
Styg talked about what the old system was supposed to achieve here, IMO the new roguelike system will have that too, in that the 'order of operations' will be much more important when you can get interrupted after using what would have been just 10-15 AP in the old system.
https://rpgwatch.com/forum/threads/timelapse-vertigo-dev-log.13499/#post-1061066293

 

[Stavrophore]

>Play Jagged Alliance 2 1.13 for first time
>Hehe it's turn based game, right guys?
>Storm a building with your merc, suddenly within your turn enemy gets to act
>blast your character with a shotgun
>you die
>you learn that turn based means nothing if enemy win initative

 

[Sweeper]

>Underrail in large part appeals to autists
>Styg changes everything cause he knows autists love change
I keep telling you guys, Styg is just a sadist and he loves torturing his fanbase.

 

[lukaszek]

Movement will be actually even more important now, as long as you will be able to move and shoot simultaneously, as we see in the video.

yeah but take stabby builds for example. You will no longer be able to cross whole screen, execute a lot of stabs, then run back and break los.
I mean you will be able to, but under fire.

Add how styg did mention that he disliked crit stacking of underrail1... my beloved builds are in danger

 

[toro]

I am not sure how will the Roguelike combat works with how highly lethal everything in Underrail is.

Getting slowed down/using a slow action in RL most of the times equal getting instagibbed by enemy doing 3 actions at once to you. Made even worse against multiple enemies.

Won't be an issue late game but early game would be awful. I am not sure if it solves the Alpha strike problem too. Like for slow characters now it is even MORE important to Alpha Strike

It will work mostly the same

For glass cannons, you maxx your speed and damage. Start with applying debuffs on the enemies (slow them down and ruin their accuracy) then quickly kill them.

For tanks you will simply minimize the damage

You are talking out of your ass.

 

[Stavrophore]

>Underrail in large part appeals to autists
>Styg changes everything cause he knows autists love change
I keep telling you guys, Styg is just a sadist and he loves torturing his fanbase.

Typical autist mistake - thinking that anyone respect them.

 

[Hydro]

You will no longer be able to cross whole screen, execute a lot of stabs, then run back and break los.

Good. Viable melee builds in a setting with advanced firearms is dumb and gamey

Though I can see a lot of workarounds: high dodge when sprinting for example

 

[BlackPlate]

Viable melee builds in a setting with advanced firearms is dumb and gamey

Stealth, psionics, shields, armour, grenades, speed, evasion, drugs, cover. Take your pick.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

It appears that this system is functionally real-time with pause, with pausing being automatic and mandatory at the conclusion of every player action. Is that correct?

No, not really. Look at the video, enemies don't do things at the same time as the player.

Micro-turns, like a roguelike.

That is a bizarre contrivance. Why not just do RTwP? He already has all the real-time system features intact, it's just got a layer abstracted over it. This system seems tortured and complicates his goals.

 

[Infinitron]

• In combat mode, everything is paused until the player performs an action. The action takes a certain amount of time and this amount is granted to all non-player participants to use for their new or ongoing actions (such as moving, attacking, activating special abilities).

Styg I suppose the player has some limitation on his movement, right? So you can't walk two kilometers and then the enemies get to do stuff for twenty minutes.

 

[Ol' Willy]

You play fast high crit pistol char. Encounter vs two enemies, one ranged and one melee. You win the initiative and do two shots to the ranged guy. He departs. Melee guy gets his time and moves towards you two squares (he has fast movement). You do two more shots and he drops

Melee vs two ranged enemies. You open the fight with applying debuff on enemies which will cause them to lose time or slow them down. Maybe smokes to reduce their accuracy. You run towards them and do knifing

Tank vs two ranged. They will win the initiative but they don't have full turns to punish you anymore. Each one of them makes a shot and then you shoot them too or throw debuffs

It will work like this, nothing too complicated

 

[Ol' Willy]

I am not sure how will the Roguelike combat works with how highly lethal everything in Underrail is.

Getting slowed down/using a slow action in RL most of the times equal getting instagibbed by enemy doing 3 actions at once to you. Made even worse against multiple enemies.

Won't be an issue late game but early game would be awful. I am not sure if it solves the Alpha strike problem too. Like for slow characters now it is even MORE important to Alpha Strike

It will work mostly the same

For glass cannons, you maxx your speed and damage. Start with applying debuffs on the enemies (slow them down and ruin their accuracy) then quickly kill them.

For tanks you will simply minimize the damage

You are talking out of your ass.

You seem very upset

Or you gonna start "NOOOOOOO Styg will ruin the already perfect system NOOOOO"

Have faith in the man

 

[harhar!]

I have no idea how good this new combat system is going to be and so does nobody else until they've actually played it. Just let the man cook. Might be great, might be terrible. Better than certain mediocrity.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

• In combat mode, everything is paused until the player performs an action. The action takes a certain amount of time and this amount is granted to all non-player participants to use for their new or ongoing actions (such as moving, attacking, activating special abilities).

Styg I suppose the player has some limitation on his movement, right? So you can't walk two kilometers and then the enemies get to do stuff for twenty minutes.

From what I saw from video moving a single tile counts as an action.

 

[toro]

I am not sure how will the Roguelike combat works with how highly lethal everything in Underrail is.

Getting slowed down/using a slow action in RL most of the times equal getting instagibbed by enemy doing 3 actions at once to you. Made even worse against multiple enemies.

Won't be an issue late game but early game would be awful. I am not sure if it solves the Alpha strike problem too. Like for slow characters now it is even MORE important to Alpha Strike

It will work mostly the same

For glass cannons, you maxx your speed and damage. Start with applying debuffs on the enemies (slow them down and ruin their accuracy) then quickly kill them.

For tanks you will simply minimize the damage

You are talking out of your ass.

You seem very upset

Or you gonna start "NOOOOOOO Styg will ruin the already perfect system NOOOOO"

Have faith in the man

"It will work mostly the same" is the most retarded take on the new combat system. Play Jupiter Hell or Quasimorph and tell me that the combat is similar to Underrail.

It will not work the same. Exploitable or not, Underrail AP inflation was great for tackling multiple enemies fights however - with the new system - fights with multiple enemies will be a complete shit show because the window of opportunity for tactical decisions will be almost non-existent during fights. Once you engage a mob you will be pretty much stuck doing damage, tanking damage and pray that you will survive.

It's not that I don't have trust in Styg but at least for me this is an obvious retarded design decision. The original complain from InD_ImaginE is valid.

 

[luj1]

• In combat mode, everything is paused until the player performs an action. The action takes a certain amount of time and this amount is granted to all non-player participants to use for their new or ongoing actions (such as moving, attacking, activating special abilities).
• When exactly this time is granted to the NPCs is critical as sometimes they might act immediately to interfere with the player. This time may also be granted in bulk or in smaller amounts (e.g. channeled abilities such as bandaging).
• Player is free to act and give additional time to NPCs unless he is "blocked" by an ongoing relevant NPC action. An enemy trying to move out of the player's melee range is relevant and the player must "respect" their available time; a neutral crab roaming on the other side of the map is not relevant and it can do what it pleases.
• NPCs usually won't block each other. Meaning they will act simultaneously for the most part

I reread this, sounds convoluted. Lots of "usually", etc.

If there are multiple classes of actions, perhapa this can be explained better?

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

• In combat mode, everything is paused until the player performs an action. The action takes a certain amount of time and this amount is granted to all non-player participants to use for their new or ongoing actions (such as moving, attacking, activating special abilities).
• When exactly this time is granted to the NPCs is critical as sometimes they might act immediately to interfere with the player. This time may also be granted in bulk or in smaller amounts (e.g. channeled abilities such as bandaging).
• Player is free to act and give additional time to NPCs unless he is "blocked" by an ongoing relevant NPC action. An enemy trying to move out of the player's melee range is relevant and the player must "respect" their available time; a neutral crab roaming on the other side of the map is not relevant and it can do what it pleases.
• NPCs usually won't block each other. Meaning they will act simultaneously for the most part

I reread this, sounds convoluted. Lots of "usually", etc.

If there are multiple classes of actions, perhapa this can be explained better?

It means that there still should be under the hood resolution order for NPC actions when they would do something simultaneously.

 

[luj1]

I don't like this system but kinda intrigued what Styg comes up with. Especially if that was something originally intended for UR. Also if it's anything like ToME that's awesome, it has huge depth. Altho UR combat is already pretty good.

 

[notpl]

• In combat mode, everything is paused until the player performs an action. The action takes a certain amount of time and this amount is granted to all non-player participants to use for their new or ongoing actions (such as moving, attacking, activating special abilities).
• When exactly this time is granted to the NPCs is critical as sometimes they might act immediately to interfere with the player. This time may also be granted in bulk or in smaller amounts (e.g. channeled abilities such as bandaging).
• Player is free to act and give additional time to NPCs unless he is "blocked" by an ongoing relevant NPC action. An enemy trying to move out of the player's melee range is relevant and the player must "respect" their available time; a neutral crab roaming on the other side of the map is not relevant and it can do what it pleases.
• NPCs usually won't block each other. Meaning they will act simultaneously for the most part

I reread this, sounds convoluted. Lots of "usually", etc.

If there are multiple classes of actions, perhapa this can be explained better?

Turns are weaved together like in a roguelike and larger/"slower" actions by the player that would take more action points in the old system allow enemies to act proportionally more after you perform them. Basically, as you spend AP, you grant enemies that much AP to spend themselves. Very easy to grasp by watching the video and seeing how the rathounds are able to sometimes attack twice after the player swings a lead pipe, but then later when he fights one with a knife this is not the case. I don't know how Styg managed to make something so simple sound confusing.

 

[toro]

• In combat mode, everything is paused until the player performs an action. The action takes a certain amount of time and this amount is granted to all non-player participants to use for their new or ongoing actions (such as moving, attacking, activating special abilities).
• When exactly this time is granted to the NPCs is critical as sometimes they might act immediately to interfere with the player. This time may also be granted in bulk or in smaller amounts (e.g. channeled abilities such as bandaging).
• Player is free to act and give additional time to NPCs unless he is "blocked" by an ongoing relevant NPC action. An enemy trying to move out of the player's melee range is relevant and the player must "respect" their available time; a neutral crab roaming on the other side of the map is not relevant and it can do what it pleases.
• NPCs usually won't block each other. Meaning they will act simultaneously for the most part

I reread this, sounds convoluted. Lots of "usually", etc.

If there are multiple classes of actions, perhapa this can be explained better?

Turns are weaved together like in a roguelike and larger/"slower" actions by the player that would take more action points in the old system allow enemies to act proportionally more after you perform them. Basically, as you spend AP, you grant enemies that much AP to spend themselves. Very easy to grasp by watching the video and seeing how the rathounds are able to sometimes attack twice after the player swings a lead pipe, but then later when he fights one with a knife this is not the case. I don't know how Styg managed to make something so simple sound confusing.

Tunnel vision. I assume Styg has something in his mind but in this case he missed the forest for the trees.

Also, I don't mind if I'm wrong but that abomination from the clip will never reach the release date therefore I will patiently wait for the next game dev update :D

 

[Hydro]

God you are dumb retards. Honestly you deserve Infinitron.

 

[Sweeper]

Better than certain mediocrity.

>Implying Underrail was mediocre

 

[ciox]

IMO the new game will likely follow the same trajectory as Underrail, from its early demos, to 1.0 and expansions.

At first you will be playing quite underpowered characters, like the average character was in 2013 Underrail, hiding behind traps and consumables to barely survive, then more and more powerful tools will be added to the game as time goes on. More psi abilities, feats, items, some of which will probably be very strong, and new builds will appear that can handle any combat encounter head-on.

As for the roguelike combat system, it's not all set in stone because there is room for characters to grow to become faster and more effective during combat, similar to how the new Adrenaline Shot gives your character "+35% physical speed".
With enough speed, you should have some freedom to act before enemies mess with you, which could resemble a real "turn" like in a turnbased game, albeit a little shorter and also varying depending on the the speed of the enemies.
I would also expect physical speed increases to be targeted and conditional, rather than universal. An attribute that just straight up makes you faster is probably a bad idea. There was a reason why Underrail didn't have a "Maximum Action Points" attribute.