Game News Underrail Dev Log #57: The Rig

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Trash Player]

How does the oddity system prevent this grinding thing?
Oddities drop from mobs too, so to be sure you get them, you still have to kill a lot of shit. But instead of just grinding fights you also have to grind every garbage can because you don't know where you might find one.
Similar to how no combat XP doesn't actually remove grinding, just moves it to grinding quests and any other source of XP, the oddity system, if anything, increases grinding.

The oddity system is fresh for the first time and indeed encourages exploration. Trying to replay or optimize your gain is indeed tiresome but that is an acceptable evil.

 

[Ramenos]

Oddity is great, I am just wondering if I could switch to classic for a 2nd run and makes my life easier... Just a little bit :D

Sincerely, Depot A was tough but the last zone is just horrible. I have issues to kill 1 enemy with the crossbow and the fact that the aliens (don't remember their name) try to kill me as soon as they see me does not help

Pics of build/gear? Your perception should be way above 10 for one.

Like I said, I did not know you were able to increase more than 10 a perk so I think the max I had for my character is 9... Yeah, I know, I did bad but I did not want to read anything about this ^^. Guess I will more optimize my second build . Psy seems fun to play, really fun.

 

[ciox]

Oddity is great, I am just wondering if I could switch to classic for a 2nd run and makes my life easier... Just a little bit :D

Sincerely, Depot A was tough but the last zone is just horrible. I have issues to kill 1 enemy with the crossbow and the fact that the aliens (don't remember their name) try to kill me as soon as they see me does not help

Pics of build/gear? Your perception should be way above 10 for one.

Like I said, I did not know you were able to increase more than 10 a perk so I think the max I had for my character is 9... Yeah, I know, I did bad but I did not want to read anything about this ^^. Guess I will more optimize my second build . Psy seems fun to play, really fun.

Yeah, you need to be really good at abusing the mechanics if you play with a bad build, my first crossbow build also had bad perception and other stats that were all over the place, but I was able to use crowd control to an insane degree with psi, grenades, special bolts and traps etc.
Cryostasis + Premeditation means if all your crossbow shots miss due to bad Perception, you can still freeze an enemy for 2 turns even if ALL your action points have run out by then.

 

[FeelTheRads]

The oddity system is fresh for the first time and indeed encourages exploration.

I don't think it makes a huge difference in terms of grinding, but I do like the small shift where I don't have to look at a mob and think of it as walking XP, and instead see it as an obstacle to be overcome in a variety of ways.

With Oddity, remember that you don't really have to search every single trash-can. You usually max out a lot of the oddity types in an area long before you kill or search everything. After that, you are free to search more containers for any kind of loot as much as you want.

Primarily, I like Oddities because they help make looting more exciting, while not really hurting the combat experience - I'm still going to be fighting most enemies in order to get through the game, and also because I am playing for the challenge, not the XP.

I disagree. Especially for a first play when you don't know exactly how it works and where you might find them or who might drop them it gives a greater incentive to search everything and kill everything... only to end up disappointed when you wasted your time to get nothing but some shitty loot or nothing at all.

For future playthroughs, with meta knowledge, I'd imagine it makes the game more linear since you can just go straight for the spots where you know they are.

If you want to remove grinding (at least combat grinding since apparently only that's considered grinding ) then don't have optional fights. Nothing to grind then. Seems more reasonable that filling the world with obstacles that don't give any fucking thing for overcoming them.

I don't understand this stupid hate some have for getting XP from combat. How in the fuck is it different than getting it from anything else? It's like getting XP from combat is for the plebs while getting XP from quests is for monocled gentlemen. Fuck off, you're still pushing buttons to get rewards. That's all there is to it. To completely remove that "pavlovian conditioning" (term which I've seen some no combat-XP dumbfucks use) then just level up your character at fixed points where the developers decide. Then you can explore and do whatever the fuck you want, not being "forced" to actually do anything.

 

[Ramenos]

The oddity system is fresh for the first time and indeed encourages exploration.

I don't think it makes a huge difference in terms of grinding, but I do like the small shift where I don't have to look at a mob and think of it as walking XP, and instead see it as an obstacle to be overcome in a variety of ways.

With Oddity, remember that you don't really have to search every single trash-can. You usually max out a lot of the oddity types in an area long before you kill or search everything. After that, you are free to search more containers for any kind of loot as much as you want.

Primarily, I like Oddities because they help make looting more exciting, while not really hurting the combat experience - I'm still going to be fighting most enemies in order to get through the game, and also because I am playing for the challenge, not the XP.

I disagree. Especially for a first play when you don't know exactly how it works and where you might find them or who might drop them it gives a greater incentive to search everything and kill everything... only to end up disappointed when you wasted your time to get nothing but some shitty loot or nothing at all.

For future playthroughs, with meta knowledge, I'd imagine it makes the game more linear since you can just go straight for the spots where you know they are.

If you want to remove grinding (at least combat grinding since apparently only that's considered grinding ) then don't have optional fights. Nothing to grind then. Seems more reasonable that filling the world with obstacles that don't give any fucking thing for overcoming them.

I don't understand this stupid hate some have for getting XP from combat. How in the fuck is it different than getting it from anything else? It's like getting XP from combat is for the plebs while getting XP from quests is for monocled gentlemen. Fuck off, you're still pushing buttons to get rewards. That's all there is to it. To completely remove that "pavlovian conditioning" (term which I've seen some no combat-XP dumbfucks use) then just level up your character at fixed points where the developers decide. Then you can explore and do whatever the fuck you want, not being "forced" to actually do anything.

Thanks for your answer. My original question was: "for a 2nd run, what should I choose?". For the 1st one, I chose oddity and I really liked it. But doing a little bit of grinding could have been helpful on some areas after not finding new oddities .

 

[Trash Player]

The oddity system is fresh for the first time and indeed encourages exploration.

I don't think it makes a huge difference in terms of grinding, but I do like the small shift where I don't have to look at a mob and think of it as walking XP, and instead see it as an obstacle to be overcome in a variety of ways.

With Oddity, remember that you don't really have to search every single trash-can. You usually max out a lot of the oddity types in an area long before you kill or search everything. After that, you are free to search more containers for any kind of loot as much as you want.

Primarily, I like Oddities because they help make looting more exciting, while not really hurting the combat experience - I'm still going to be fighting most enemies in order to get through the game, and also because I am playing for the challenge, not the XP.

I disagree. Especially for a first play when you don't know exactly how it works and where you might find them or who might drop them it gives a greater incentive to search everything and kill everything... only to end up disappointed when you wasted your time to get nothing but some shitty loot or nothing at all.

For future playthroughs, with meta knowledge, I'd imagine it makes the game more linear since you can just go straight for the spots where you know they are.

If you want to remove grinding (at least combat grinding since apparently only that's considered grinding ) then don't have optional fights. Nothing to grind then. Seems more reasonable that filling the world with obstacles that don't give any fucking thing for overcoming them.

I don't understand this stupid hate some have for getting XP from combat. How in the fuck is it different than getting it from anything else? It's like getting XP from combat is for the plebs while getting XP from quests is for monocled gentlemen. Fuck off, you're still pushing buttons to get rewards. That's all there is to it. To completely remove that "pavlovian conditioning" (term which I've seen some no combat-XP dumbfucks use) then just level up your character at fixed points where the developers decide. Then you can explore and do whatever the fuck you want, not being "forced" to actually do anything.

People opposing character advancement through combat isn't actually against the concept but what often attached with it: the underexplored subsystems and alternatives aside from combat and the monotony and hassle of unexciting but mechanically rewarding combat, i.e. trash fights.
Advancement at nodes only has been done before and it is an option especially worth considering at this age.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Thanks for your answer. My original question was: "for a 2nd run, what should I choose?"

???

I have no advice in that regard. I did not really play the whole game with the oddity system, my opinion on it is mostly based on its concept which seems pointless to me, as in why the fuck would I even bother fighting if I get nothing from it.

Play whatever you want. Underrail's strengths don't sit on "avoiding grinding".

Advancement at nodes only has been done before and it is an option especially worth considering at this age.

What does that even mean? What age and why is it worth considering?

Why is it not worth considering making actually good games based on systems and gameplay ideas that worked before and worked fine instead of just trying to pointlessly reinvent the wheel and end up with stupid, mangled and obtuse shit?

 

[Fenix]

The oddity system is just great, exploring instead of grinding is a big fucking YES!

Yeah, when I tried to play Fallout after Underrail, I have found myself irritated by all this +25 exp for lockpicking and such.
Of course game is not to blame here. it's just my OCD, when I first played Fallout it wasn't such a problem.

Oddities drop from mobs too, so to be sure you get them, you still have to kill a lot of shit.

You don't need to kill them specifically for oddities, e.g. usually to get all siphoner's odditties you need to get dozen and half of them, but you do that for their leather, without specifically hunting for exp.
Well... tldr version - I don't feel pressed that I need to eliminate them, because I won't get oddities every time for.
For me it's greend-free basically.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Gord]

I think the Oddity system makes sense especially if you actively try to evade as many fights as possible, e.g. when playing a character focused on sneaking around and thieving.
For less subtle, combat-based characters (which will likely be most of them), normal XP system might actually make the game easier at times, as the possibility of doing some grinding might help where the oddity system leaves you somewhat starved for XP at some points in the game/slows down progression to some extend.
On top of that, any char that is not much into sneaking will anyway have to fight most encounters.

Of course, if you suffer from some degree of OCD and can't help fighting anything (respawning and out of the way) that might actually give XP, oddity system again can help with that.

However, that is based on my experience with the game in the first weeks after release, haven't really played since then.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[FeelTheRads]

Well... tldr version - I don't feel pressed that I need to eliminate them, because I won't get oddities every time for.
For me it's greend-free basically.

I didn't feel pressed to eliminate anything either, except for loot. Getting XP was really a nice bonus.
There's hardly any reason to grind XP in Underrail, you really don't need a fucking system to keep you from doing it.

Unless you count as grinding actually fighting instead of running away, in which case fuck you.
And I realize there must be some autists out there who farm respawn spots, but fuck those too, I don't see why games should cater to them and leave the rest dealing with the stupid attempts of developers to fix shit that's not broken. Not referring to the oddity system directly here, just the "lol no combat-xp means no grinding!!11" thing in general.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I've never actually done the oddity system despite finding a ton of them and such. It never appealed to me because I've always gone out of my way to explore like crazy anyway.

 

[epeli]

Oddities are sort of a middle ground between System Shock 2's cybernetic modules (story-controlled XP progression - advancement nodes as Trash Player put it) and Haven & Hearth's curiosities (item-based XP system that eliminates grind and makes you do a bit of everything)

XP grinding is kinda irrelevant, it's not much of a thing in a singleplayer WRPG like Underrail. The oddity system just ensures that different playstyles/builds level up at similar speeds. This may not seem like a big deal now, but it was a more obvious issue back in alpha when the system came to be. Compared to predefined advancement nodes, both oddity and classic XP have the upside that they don't diminish player agency in leveling.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Oddities do not fix griding, but they are more interesting in Underrail than traditional XP since they contain little bits of information about the game world, sometimes they are funny, etc.

 

[Fenix]

Don't care about progreassion and prefer it slow.
OS allow me to just play instead of grinding.

 

[Latelistener]

Underrail
grind

You don't know what it means, unless you played korean MMOs.

 

[Twiglard]

Oddities do not fix griding, but they are more interesting in Underrail than traditional XP since they contain little bits of information about the game world, sometimes they are funny, etc.

Some oddities have low limits, or are too common without others to complement them. It's less fun exploring if you've exhausted each available oddity type in the general area. They're also reliant on placement according to the map's designer which is arbitrary in itself.

But the XP mode is unbalanced. Explore and hit level 25 in the middle of the game. In fact I hit it just by doing RC, Foundry, Core City quests in that order. Doing Core City ASAP makes it even worse.

On subsequent runs I only do XP with speedhack. The first run was actually great atmosphere and fun with no speedhack.

The XP mode is kind of necessary for the DOMINATING difficulty. Too many challenges right off the bat. But after a while the XP bloat takes over again, and DOMINATING only becomes a challenge again in DC. Nothing else was designed for level 22+ characters. It's been like that since the release. Probably as simple to fix as decreasing XP gain in levels 8-12, 12-16, 16-20+ by varying amounts.

 

[Ramenos]

Hi everyone,

I am sorry that the conversation just switched to grinding. When I was asking if classic mode would be good for a 2nd mod, I just wanted to be sure that at the end "oddity" and "classic" are balanced. Clearly, Underrail is not a game where "grinding" is necessary. You explore, you discover, you try new stuff, you take some risks.

I would be willing to play oddity mode again but I just don't know if both are well balanced.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Holy shit! I can't wait for next Thursday when this game releases!

 

[cherry blossom]

my first crossbow build also had bad perception

crossbow build ... bad perception

Looks like you also had bad perception indeed.

 

[Tigranes]

Oddity's decently balanced & should be a no brainer every time, I think. THere's no huge downsides to it.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Some oddities have low limits, or are too common without others to complement them. It's less fun exploring if you've exhausted each available oddity type in the general area. They're also reliant on placement according to the map's designer which is arbitrary in itself.

The game should be able to track whether you already achieved your maximal learning of each oddity and stop producing them. It's a pain in the ass to gather more uselless (and known) oddities and goes against the freshness that oddities bring in the first place.

 

[ciox]

Hi everyone,

I am sorry that the conversation just switched to grinding. When I was asking if classic mode would be good for a 2nd mod, I just wanted to be sure that at the end "oddity" and "classic" are balanced. Clearly, Underrail is not a game where "grinding" is necessary. You explore, you discover, you try new stuff, you take some risks.

I would be willing to play oddity mode again but I just don't know if both are well balanced.

Just try it, the game has been somewhat rebalanced in the latest updates anyway.

my first crossbow build also had bad perception

crossbow build ... bad perception

Looks like you also had bad perception indeed.

Or I didn't want to wait 100 hours for a new run to start so I could see what psi and certain feats are like.