Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Tigranes]

The primary decision in a mana system is that I have a finite, common resource, and so I must play a zero sum game, and decide which skills should eat up that mana. One of cooldowns' primary differences from mana or even Vancian is that the costs become totally disconnected. (Conversely, Underrail mitigates this through scarcity of AP.)

"Mana on an individual ability basis" just makes zero sense whatsoever in this conversation.

 

[Parabalus]

The primary decision in a mana system is that I have a finite, common resource, and so I must play a zero sum game, and decide which skills should eat up that mana. One of cooldowns' primary differences from mana or even Vancian is that the costs become totally disconnected. (Conversely, Underrail mitigates this through scarcity of AP.)

"Mana on an individual ability basis" just makes zero sense whatsoever in this conversation.

Underrail already has mana for PSI. If you add stamina for e.g. melee attacks and it doesn't interact with psi points(like luka suggested) they are disconnected. The more colours you add, the closer you get to cooldowns.

It doesn't make much sense.

 

[Tigranes]

OK, I see where you're coming from. I wasn't talking about adding mana to Underrail, though. I don't fundamentally have a big problem with cooldowns in Underrail, and if we were changing it it would be a more systemic overhaul than just tacking on 'stamina'. That wouldn't make any sense and I can't imagine anyone arguing for it.

More generally, I do maintain that there are better ways to have meaningful costs and tradeoffs, and that Underrail is an example of successfully mitigating cooldowns' flaws rather than cooldowns making UR fantastic. Adrenaline is a good example of how there's a unique and sensible consequence that adds a different kind of decision-making. I'd also be interested in someone's idea earlier about how there's limits on spamming certain types of actions in a given turn.

 

[HoboForEternity]

except psi bar is just gauge that is still practically infinite because how easy it is to obtain psi hypo

 

[Blackmill]

Currently running a thief with psi and it's been the most fun I've had with a build. Interloper+10 is absurd. I'm at level 27, dominating, oddity mode, having just entered the deep caverns. While the combat has been rather easy, the build becomes very strong in that regard, the sneaking has been a ton of fun.

Build link.

This build definitely isn't optimal. I foremost wanted to make a really good sneak that was still strong in combat. Here's what I think my be worth changing.

- Metathermics isn't great. It's very good early on when Cryokinesis is your best ability. And Thermodynamic Destabilization is your way for dealing with crowds before you get Locus of Control. But after that it is rarely used. Maybe droppable.

- The build lacks a way to fight machines. The robot spam in parts of Expedition is nearly unbeatable in combat for this build. Fighting 8+ 700 health robots with near immunity to mechanical, heat, and frost damage just isn't possible. And the crowded rooms in some areas make sneaking very hard. It would be good to have a backup plan if caught while sneaking.

- Pickpocket was too high. I mostly wanted a peaceful progression through the Scrappers questline, to uncover the fat spy, and to steal back the thingy from that Hexagon guy. But as I was swimming in money, only the first two uses were very relevant. And last use only needed 100-110 anyways. I want to be skilled at Pickpocket because it's a "thief" skill -- it wouldn't be right to have it at 0 -- but that's a lot of points that aren't put to use.

- This build doesn't invest in mercantile until around level 16 or 18. It also doesn't invest in crafting until around level 22. Gear just isn't that great for much of the game. It would be nice to somehow invest in these skills earlier.

So, my thoughts are to drop Metathermics in favor of Temporal Manipulation. I also think Pscyhokinesis may be droppable down to 25. Without Thermodynamic Destabilization, there is less use for Telekinetic Punch, and Force Field doesn't scale with skill. Dropping Pscyhokinesis would allow investing in the crafting skills earlier. I think having access to Trance and some good headbands would more than make up for whatever damage is lost in the mid-game by not having Metathermics or Pscyhokinesis. Extra points should probably go into throwing for additional damage versus robots. Or perhaps traps to avoid metagaming certain areas. I don't know what to do about Pickpcoket. I'd rather find a few more good uses for it than decide to drop it.

 

[hell bovine]

This is pretty disingenuous though - wizards have many cooldowns to manage and managing them is super fun, especially with TM.

Them being extremely OP is another matter and even distracts and cheapens from the above.

The psi hypo CD buff (6-->3), which wasn't even in the patch notes, is an example of recent bad balance changes. Before you used to be able to run out of PSI, having to e.g. hide or kite until it comes back up, now that's gone.

Tbh, I don't recall a single fight where my cave wizard would have to wait for the locus of control cd to come down. Same with destabilization > proxy > critical punch combo. Afterwards you just pick up the leftovers. And on most maps you can get all enemies into one group before your target them, by staging a tnt explosion. Of course this is not always the case and in some fights I had to indeed balance the cds.

That said, I disagree temporal psi adds to the fun, I think it just makes bad balance decision worse. Even on my chem pistol, who only used temporal magic, it was too much cheese and the reason I've abandoned that character.

 

[HoboForEternity]

Currently running a thief with psi and it's been the most fun I've had with a build. Interloper+10 is absurd. I'm at level 27, dominating, oddity mode, having just entered the deep caverns. While the combat has been rather easy, the build becomes very strong in that regard, the sneaking has been a ton of fun.

Build link.

This build definitely isn't optimal. I foremost wanted to make a really good sneak that was still strong in combat. Here's what I think my be worth changing.

- Metathermics isn't great. It's very good early on when Cryokinesis is your best ability. And Thermodynamic Destabilization is your way for dealing with crowds before you get Locus of Control. But after that it is rarely used. Maybe droppable.

- The build lacks a way to fight machines. The robot spam in parts of Expedition is nearly unbeatable in combat for this build. Fighting 8+ 700 health robots with near immunity to mechanical, heat, and frost damage just isn't possible. And the crowded rooms in some areas make sneaking very hard. It would be good to have a backup plan if caught while sneaking.

- Pickpocket was too high. I mostly wanted a peaceful progression through the Scrappers questline, to uncover the fat spy, and to steal back the thingy from that Hexagon guy. But as I was swimming in money, only the first two uses were very relevant. And last use only needed 100-110 anyways. I want to be skilled at Pickpocket because it's a "thief" skill -- it wouldn't be right to have it at 0 -- but that's a lot of points that aren't put to use.

- This build doesn't invest in mercantile until around level 16 or 18. It also doesn't invest in crafting until around level 22. Gear just isn't that great for much of the game. It would be nice to somehow invest in these skills earlier.

So, my thoughts are to drop Metathermics in favor of Temporal Manipulation. I also think Pscyhokinesis may be droppable down to 25. Without Thermodynamic Destabilization, there is less use for Telekinetic Punch, and Force Field doesn't scale with skill. Dropping Pscyhokinesis would allow investing in the crafting skills earlier. I think having access to Trance and some good headbands would more than make up for whatever damage is lost in the mid-game by not having Metathermics or Pscyhokinesis. Extra points should probably go into throwing for additional damage versus robots. Or perhaps traps to avoid metagaming certain areas. I don't know what to do about Pickpcoket. I'd rather find a few more good uses for it than decide to drop it.

kinda disagree. i find methathermics incredibly useful, especially cyro orb + mania and pyrokinetic. the locust maps are tolerable because cyro orb with crits can destroy a hive in single hit. it is also useful foe dealing with crowds, even robots.

the thing about temporal manipulation is it is useful for every build. especially with cooldown reducer and the one that increase/decrease AP

 

[hell bovine]

So, my thoughts are to drop Metathermics in favor of Temporal Manipulation. I also think Pscyhokinesis may be droppable down to 25. Without Thermodynamic Destabilization, there is less use for Telekinetic Punch, and Force Field doesn't scale with skill. Dropping Pscyhokinesis would allow investing in the crafting skills earlier. I think having access to Trance and some good headbands would more than make up for whatever damage is lost in the mid-game by not having Metathermics or Pscyhokinesis. Extra points should probably go into throwing for additional damage versus robots. Or perhaps traps to avoid metagaming certain areas. I don't know what to do about Pickpcoket. I'd rather find a few more good uses for it than decide to drop it.

Well, the tm base ability should work on robots, but it's a hassle to set up and you have to wait for it to kick in. Imo throwing with tm will get you more bang. lti with future orientation is on a 2 turn cd, combine that with grenadier and high electronics for mkiii plasma & emp grenades, and that should be enough. I've found some plasma mkiii in expedition and they do plenty damage, just the radius is a bit smaller. (but robots tend to gather rather closely during combat, and you can lure them with tnt explosions too)

 

[Blackmill]

kinda disagree. i find methathermics incredibly useful, especially cyro orb + mania and pyrokinetic. the locust maps are tolerable because cyro orb with crits can destroy a hive in single hit. it is also useful foe dealing with crowds, even robots.

the thing about temporal manipulation is it is useful for every build. especially with cooldown reducer and the one that increase/decrease AP

My problem with Cryokinetic Orb is that it's unreliable. I've had it land next to a target and have nothing hit even though the description suggests that should be impossible. And worse, if you miss badly, you can easily kill yourself if a single shard hits you. At my current level, Locus of Control + Mania + Neural Overload is about 600-700 damage to everyone in an effectively larger radius with no chance of missing. That's without Trance. And Neural Overload is silent while Cryo Orb makes a ton of noise. I don't think Cryo Orb is that good against robots. Robots have like 90% resistance to frost and 50-85% resistance to mechanical damage. It still does a good amount of damage if every shard hits, but against a Naga or Dreadnought, I think Stasis + Temporal Distorition is better.

Well, the tm base ability should work on robots, but it's a hassle to set up and you have to wait for it to kick in. Imo throwing with tm will get you more bang. lti with future orientation is on a 2 turn cd, combine that with grenadier and high electronics for mkiii plasma & emp grenades, and that should be enough. I've found some plasma mkiii in expedition and they do plenty damage, just the radius is a bit smaller. (but robots tend to gather rather closely during combat, and you can lure them with tnt explosions too)

Yeah, I haven't tried a build which does this, but I've been meaning to.

 

[HoboForEternity]

true enough. my mistake is dropping psychokinetic that have great electric based attack. in the end, i just mostly cheese the robots with temporal distortion. they dont have much AP so i can easily outrun them with my crafted tabi sandals. hand maidens are faster but they go down faster. strongman are tougher, but easy to cheese with alot of movement AP.

i deal with fleshies very easily tho and yeah, i have moved on from cyrokinesis to mind overload, because they do helluva damage. cyro bolt have alot more range advantage, so there's that. i think i reduce more than 1/2 HP bar with neural overload to those wyrm serprents in the natives shaman chambers.

but yeah, looking back, methethermics was boss early and it loses value the higher level you are.

 

[ghostdog]

If cooldowns where never used in shitty MMOs and Underrail was the first to use them no one would have a problem with them.

 

[Tigranes]

the thing about temporal manipulation is it is useful for every build

That's the potential issue with TM, though. It's a no-brainer for every single build. And every single build uses them the same way. It's a free sprint & CD reduction magic spell for every build. Sure, it's fun to make our builds even more powerful. But was it really necessary? Could they have been designed differently?

 

[Trash Player]

Cooldowns work fine in Tales of Maj-eyal, but in that game there are no consumable items so CDs are the only limits on health items.

Underrail's "suspenders and a belt" style is overkill. If I can only use one health stim per encounter there's not much point to carrying 100 of them. Likewise, grenades are already limited by being uncommon, reasonably expensive, limited stack size, and competing for utility slot space--having a cooldown on top of all that is just crazy.

Grenades are mass produced easily with a negligible price in both skill points and currency. It is split into two supertypes with each sharing a common cooldown, so it would only take up 2 belt slots. Stack size doesn't matter. They do have weight but so is everything else. The whole drug/nades system is essentially ToME4's infusion/runes except being less nuanced with a layer of tedium on top of it.
I like Underrail's combat but it is good despite cooldown instead of regardless of it. It is very likely a legacy of Timelapse Vertigo's realtime system. Styg pretty much is a cargo cultist that just happen to have mostly the right kind of cargo, one can easily find some flaws in them. UR is still worth its price and time for at least half a playthrough though.

 

[Lord_Potato]

I have another question concerning the security of the AEGIS camp.

After 4 native attacks there are still 22 SEC troopers alive. However now the military commander of the expedition informs me that the supplies are very low. Practically everything except the jet skis. I check the supply level regularly. Before the last battle they were still pretty high. Now the situation drastically changed.

Can I do something about it? I just explored 6 Lemurian structures (recently completed Joint Security HQ) and did not waste time for too much exploration.

 

[Ramnozack]

I have another question concerning the security of the AEGIS camp.

After 4 native attacks there are still 22 SEC troopers alive. However now the military commander of the expedition informs me that the supplies are very low. Practically everything except the jet skis. I check the supply level regularly. Before the last battle they were still pretty high. Now the situation drastically changed.

Can I do something about it? I just explored 6 Lemurian structures (recently completed Joint Security HQ) and did not waste time for too much exploration.

Go north and LARP Christopher Columbus

 

[hell bovine]

I have another question concerning the security of the AEGIS camp.

Tbh, they are not worth defending. But you are not that far away from the end of the main quest, with 22 people they should make it.

 

[Lord_Potato]

Well, I am helping them during every attack and slowly gather skill needed to activate the Naga Protector.

Hope they make it when resources run low. I wish to keep Expedition alive. When I replay this game I'll join the pirates ASAP and won't care.

 

[Sykar]

the thing about temporal manipulation is it is useful for every build

That's the potential issue with TM, though. It's a no-brainer for every single build. And every single build uses them the same way. It's a free sprint & CD reduction magic spell for every build. Sure, it's fun to make our builds even more powerful. But was it really necessary? Could they have been designed differently?

That is not the problem. The lack of scaling is. CD reduction should have been a top tier ability. Swap it with Stasis and let it start at 1 turn reduction, going up to 2 at a certain threshold.

 

[None]

- Metathermics isn't great. It's very good early on when Cryokinesis is your best ability. And Thermodynamic Destabilization is your way for dealing with crowds before you get Locus of Control. But after that it is rarely used. Maybe droppable.

- The build lacks a way to fight machines. The robot spam in parts of Expedition is nearly unbeatable in combat for this build. Fighting 8+ 700 health robots with near immunity to mechanical, heat, and frost damage just isn't possible. And the crowded rooms in some areas make sneaking very hard. It would be good to have a backup plan if caught while sneaking.

This is where Metathermics and Thermodynamic Destabilization come into play. Mark a Strongman, drop a Proxy and send a crit Tele Punch into his face. Doesn't matter how much they resist when each punch hits for 1k+. This was usually enough to kill him and the rest of the pack that I funneled into a corridor. Only enemy during Expedition that gave me some issues were the Protectors, but nothing that stopped the game.

I know your build was primarily about sneaking but Metathermics ended up being really good for my Dominating psi run.

 

[HoboForEternity]

so fetid marsh and is the last place with those fucking grasshoppers right? there are no more? thanks, i hate it.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[toro]

I have another question concerning the security of the AEGIS camp.

Tbh, they are not worth defending. But you are not that far away from the end of the main quest, with 22 people they should make it.

Some would say that the entire DLC is not worth defending. Nah, I'm joking. It feels great to live long enough to experience something on par with Deep Caverns.

Now I have reasons to skip two entire areas from the game. Who'd have thought! I feel so great ... Can we nerf Quick Tinkering* again? Pretty please. I don't want this euphoric state to end.
*I never used that shit.

The incline awakened, it looked in the mirror and then it realized that it's only a pig decline with more lipstick.

By they way, the next expansion must implement Locusts on Skijets. This is it! Styg make it happen while it still feels great.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Goromorg]

Anyone tried Temporal Distortion with Continuum ripple after nerf? I have a build in mind, might be more interesting to play than popular psychosis path http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgM...8UKi5HPSFBwoYPwojCh3LCt8KK4qK1AuKnlgXisYwF378

 

[Blaine]

I've read 100 pages just to discover that no one swapped this comic sans of a font with the old one yet.

I can't promise the original old font, but at some point I plan to release a font mod that restores the sense of atmosphere lost when the old font was swapped for a shitty version of Courier to satisfy half-blind mole people.

Ah, the good old days, when the font was vaguely cyberpunk, there was no map to aid Millennials lacking all sense of direction, and getting to and fro actually required a significant time investment.

I've pledged to fix the font issue whenever I get around to it. Any similarity to a conference of world leaders pledging to address global warming in such a way that it will only be solved after they're long-dead is sheer coincidence.

The current fonts are packaged in ancient proprietary file formats and must be extensively tested to ensure they fit and scale properly in-game, so it's not as easy as a simple swap.

One significant issue is that in order for this font mod to be fully legal (and for that matter, appropriate to Underrail's aesthetics), I'll probably have to create my own font from scratch.

By the time I do get around to it, no one will be playing anymore, but that's okay.