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KickStarter Underworld Ascendant is a disaster

RoSoDude

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...Immersive Sim :smug:

Speaking of which, among the modern type I'd fairly confidently rank them as Prey > Nu Deus Ex >= Dishonored >>>> Bioshock. That's basically in order of least to most degenerate gameplay systems, but also depicts my overall enjoyment of them as a whole (gameplay/world/atmosphere/story). I won't try to guess where U:A goes out of some semblance of sportsmanship :negative:
 

Metro

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Dishonored is related more to Deus Ex than Thief.

As for "what's wrong with Dishonored", the idiotic morality system is a pretty huge flaw. I heard that they removed it for Death of the Outsider, so I guess they finally realized it too.
How is it a huge flaw? You can simply ignore it. Only difference is the ending and greater enemy spawn if you are 'ebil' (high chaos) and kill everyone. Of course, if you go that path it's trivially easy since all the powers make you a wrecking ball. But played as pure stealth, it's fine.
 

Nano

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Dishonored is related more to Deus Ex than Thief.

As for "what's wrong with Dishonored", the idiotic morality system is a pretty huge flaw. I heard that they removed it for Death of the Outsider, so I guess they finally realized it too.
How is it a huge flaw? You can simply ignore it. Only difference is the ending and greater enemy spawn if you are 'ebil' (high chaos) and kill everyone. Of course, if you go that path it's trivially easy since all the powers make you a wrecking ball. But played as pure stealth, it's fine.
It was really annoying getting guilt tripped all the time for killing guards who were trying to kill me. Even more annoying are the ridiculous negative effects on the story outcome.
 

Metro

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So your emotional reaction means the game has a huge flaw? And - presuming people even care about 'muh story' - not sure how the outcome is ridiculous. If you go around slaughtering people then, yeah, you'll be perceived in a different light than if you stealth/knock people out.
 

Roguey

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One of the flaws is that it gives you all these lethal tools and then encourages you not to use them (while giving you significantly fewer non-lethal options). :M
 

Zakhad

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One of the flaws is that it gives you all these lethal tools and then encourages you not to use them (while giving you significantly fewer non-lethal options). :M

At least there's always a clear non-lethal option. Deus Ex: HR not only had the idiotic boss-fights, it also had your character auto-kill anyone standing behind a wall that you broke. Because it assumed you'd kill everyone, and non-lethal was a total afterthought.
 
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Haven't played Mankind Divided, and did not finish Human Revolution, but at least from what I played the nuDXs are far, far behind the Dishonoreds in at least one area (namely:level design). The Dishonoreds deserve a lot of the flack they get (Roguey correctly identifies their chief sin in terms of design), but they have easily the best levels of pretty much any AAA game in the last 15 years, and I think this is probably the only design point that they surpass the, in every other conceivable respect, superior Prey.
 

Glic2000

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Can we let the term "immersive sim" just die now? It always sounded fucking stupid and it was basically meaningless anyway.
 
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Divinity: Original Sin
One of the flaws is that it gives you all these lethal tools and then encourages you not to use them (while giving you significantly fewer non-lethal options). :M

Dishonored is a thief successor if you ignore lethal way. Lethal way has many options, but they all get old fast for me. Stealth is much more challenging and requires patience. I always have much more fun in the slow pace of stealth in games like this. The non-lethal options they offer are more than sufficient: Ghost through the level (by ghost I mean not even knocking out, which i don't really believe it's actually possible in dishonored), or knock enemies down. The fun rests in thinking about the right approach and timing. And these lethal tools they give you? Just ignore them. They're like the ability to bake bread or sew clothes in ultima 7: they're there but it's not necessary.

The thing that distances dishonored from deus ex, for me, is the fact that Deus Ex has more traditional RPG style dialogue options which dishonored lacks.

Bioshock is more like a shooter. Underworld ascendant feels like all of these games, and you strip them all of their interesting gameplay features, and you have a good level design with subpar combat and stealth, no dialogue, no quests, no story, no persistent effects.
 

RoSoDude

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Dishonored does have good level design, but it's obscured by its overpowered player mechanics and abusable systems. The verticality and multiple paths are trivialized by infinite Blink. Enemy layouts are broken by Dark Vision and Bend Time. Stealth gameplay degenerates into blink-choke with powers to get out of dodge whenever anything goes south. Combat has higher fun potential and more variety, but the use of your environment is strictly optional for the most part and you can just hack and shoot enemies to bits without considering it. Dishonored's gameplay requires self-imposed restrictions for challenge, as Corvo starts out as a master thief-assassin AND brawler, and only gets more powerful from there. Exploration is paradoxically made worse by tying all character progression to it, since the player would miss out enormously if they didn't find every rune/bone charm in the level, so Arkane had to give you the Heart to find them all with waypoint markers, turning exploration into a chore and excusing the designers from guiding the player to them through more organic cues. There are more baffling design choices besides (randomized bone charms, recharging mana, punishing lethal tactics in favor of simplistic nonlethal tactics, poor resource, gold, and upgrade economies, etc.), but I wanted to highlight the features that particularly hinder the level design.

The Nu DX games are arguably more casualized by stupid crap like the omnipresent cover mechanic, time-stopping takedowns, win-button augmentations, and XP micro-rewards for everything, but there's also a greater influence of your character build on the options and paths through the levels available to you, and some individually good systems (inventory management, resource management, hacking minigame, persuasion minigame) which are just somewhat misutilized. Though the level design of HR can be too simplistic and linear at times (MD's is definitely better), I still felt it offered a more balanced experience where my approach played a decent role and exploration was a natural part of gameplay. MD has more creative and vertical level designs but also features more abusable mechanics, so it's kind of a wash for me. I still think they fare better than Dishonored overall, since both are fairly casualized but the RPG elements are just so stripped down in Dishonored (which has neither the intricacy of Thief nor the breadth of Deus Ex).
 

Curratum

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I think I killed two guards in all my playing time with Dishonored 1 and the DLC, so maybe that's why I felt that way about it. Didn't take the skill that lets you see guards through walls as well.
 

markec

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Dishonored is inspired by both Thief and Deus Ex but gameplay wise is closer to Deus Ex due viability of both lethal and non lethal playtrough, RPG elements in form of upgrading your character and player story choices.

Biggest problem with Dishonored is weak story and piss easy gameplay, first thing is not that important but to compensate for lack of challenge the best way to play the game is on max difficulty, full stealth, with no gadgets and powers.
 

Nifft Batuff

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Eh Bioshock, Dishoonred and Invisible War are masterpieces next to Underworld.
They're actually playable and enjoyable.
Maybe Dishonored and Invisible War are enjoyable. But Bioshock is definitively not. It is neither a immersive sim(TM)
 
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Zakhad

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hacking minigame

I admire some parts of the hacking system, but it has two very poor aspects.

1: in DXHR it gives its own xp rewards, meaning you're incentivised to hack stuff even if you've already found another way around. It's the old, "don't use the easy way to open that door, I'll lose the XP from opening it the hard way" trap, a trap that Prey avoids. DXMD fixes this by giving XP for using passwords, although it's still not perfect. But DXMD doesn't fix...

2: RNG. It's just a huge invitation to savescum. This kind of mini-game should be based on skill, not RNG slightly lessened by stats and consumables.

stupid crap like...time-stopping takedowns

I think those were maybe my single biggest dislike... the frozen time, the unskippable mini-cutscene, and the fact the resulting body position was randomised so it made stealth runs frustrating.
 

Glic2000

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Nov 16, 2018
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So the best part of the UA disaster is it got me to play Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, just so I could see what the devs were blathering on about when they were comparing UA to it. And it's a lot more entertaining than UA. Also, not an RPG at all.
 

DJOGamer PT

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Deus Ex: Mankind Divided has pretty good side-quests. They had multiple ways of solving with different outcomes, could mostly be done without the GPS markers, their pacing and exploration has satisfying and were varied in their premises and objectives. In fact, by the middle of the game the only reason I did the main quest has to unlock more side-quests. Still I didn't complete the game because like Human Revolution the main quest is so repetitive and dull.
Prague was also fun to explore and dick around.
 

Curratum

Guest
Today I saw their backerkit store was selling $10 addons for ingame "faction banners" that boost the morale and rally nearby faction members. There are no factions in the game. So basically the people who bought this addon... euch... :(
 

Curratum

Guest
"Bart & Bertha – We have their skulls rigged and animated, they have all their voice lines, and we just need to hook them up safely in Marcaul and QA them a bit more. We expect this to be added shortly after launch. The skulls are still being QA'd.

Clarifying and looking into how we can effectively modify our game's current save system is one of our top priorities right now.

We understand it can be very challenging to play this game before we push another update addressing some common performance issues and bugs, and we appreciate your patience as we work on this."

:hahyou:
 

RoSoDude

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Oct 1, 2016
Messages
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I admire some parts of the hacking system, but it has two very poor aspects.

1: in DXHR it gives its own xp rewards, meaning you're incentivised to hack stuff even if you've already found another way around. It's the old, "don't use the easy way to open that door, I'll lose the XP from opening it the hard way" trap, a trap that Prey avoids. DXMD fixes this by giving XP for using passwords, although it's still not perfect. But DXMD doesn't fix...
Absolutely, which is why I praised the hacking minigame individually but not its greater utilization in context -- this is what I meant by XP micro-rewards, and they're antithetical to DX design principles by incentivizing certain playstyles for non-organic reasons. MD did a much better job balancing the rewards, but it's bandaids on a broken system as far as I'm concerned. I'd also criticize the over-use of the hacking minigame, as the removal of lockpicking/electronics means that EVERYTHING is opened by hacking, so even a non-hacker build will be playing the minigame quite a bit. Still much better than Bioshock though, both in the actual minigame and its frequency.

2: RNG. It's just a huge invitation to savescum. This kind of mini-game should be based on skill, not RNG slightly lessened by stats and consumables.
Another issue of utilization. On its own, I actually think the RNG is great. I have played through HR/MD with no upgrades to Hacking: Stealth or Fortify, relying completely on strategic use of softwares to complete the harder hacks. It actually works quite well, and I only had to buy softwares a handful of times. The RNG adds a dimension of dynamic strategy rather than pure puzzle solving, legitimizes differential character investment, and creates some genuine risk/reward especially when the real-time hacking puts you in danger of being spotted (this is all HIGHLY similar to what I like about SS2's hacking system). That it encourages savescumming is an unfortunate consequence of Save Anywhere more broadly speaking, as many more of the game's systems encourage and are destroyed by savescumming than just hacking (see: mashing F8 when spotted). This feature is endemic even to the classics to various degrees.

Speaking of hacking minigames, I think one area where Prey definitively loses to its competitors is its hacking minigame. God, it's so friggin' boring. They should have put some Pac-Man ghosts in there or something. Plus the "difficulty" makes no sense, Level 2 hacks are actually the hardest by far because the doubled timer wasn't balanced for the tighter layouts, while Level 3 and 4 hacks are the easiest because the layouts had to be more open to accommodate more nodes while the timer was only scaled up linearly. Really backwards stuff.

I think those were maybe my single biggest dislike... the frozen time, the unskippable mini-cutscene, and the fact the resulting body position was randomised so it made stealth runs frustrating.
They're easily the worst part of the gameplay. I think I could happily recommend HR/MD otherwise, but the takedowns are such an embarrassment that I can only be lukewarm at best. The devs noticed very late how badly takedowns unbalanced the experience that they had to slap on a huge energy cost (they've literally admitted as much), but this doesn't fix the enormous underlying problems. I could go on and on about the flaws of these games, but none put a damper on the experience like time-stopping fade-to-black canned animation win-button goddamn takedowns. Ugh.

That I am more eager to discuss and tepidly praise the systems design of modern AAA fanfiction/tributes to games like Deus Ex and Thief over that of the new indie release from the original developers of those games engenders a profound numbness in me.
:despair:
 
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PhantasmaNL

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So they are actually putting more work into this? Wow.
 

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