KickStarter Underworld Ascendant Pre-Prototype Thread

[Immortal]

You're an edgy guy, Immortal.

 

[Abelian]

We’ve got a fun twist on the sort of stealthy AI we did with Thief, here where it is you being stalked by a stealthy predator.

The environmental interactions and response sound promising, if they can manage the scope.
Also for using the term "amazeballs".

 

[Melan]

Does anyone still think this game is going to be good?

Me. But I also gave money to Cleveland Mark Blakemore.

 

[Infinitron]

Here's something I missed from last week - a podcast with Tim Stellmach and Chris Siegel: http://www.unwinnable.com/2015/09/1...les-episode-2-tim-stellmach-and-chris-siegel/

Jason welcomes Tim Stellmach and Chris Siegel to the show this week. Tim and Chris are former Looking Glass employees responsible for some of the highest rated and respected PC games ever designed. (Ultima Underworld, Ultima Underworld 2, Thief, Thief 2 and System Shock, just to name a few) On this episode we discuss their new project (Underworld Ascendant), designing for emotional engagement, how much freedom is too much and a bunch of other cool stuff.

Emotional engagement? I'll listen to this later.

 

[Infinitron]

Listening now.

Lots of talk about the simulation-centric design philosophy, influence from other genres, innovating instead of focusing just on graphics, different types of linearity and non-linearity, etc.

Tim Stellmach considers Looking Glass' initial simulation influence to have come from flight simulators. The genre they created could be almost be thought of as a synthesis of RPGs and flight simulators.

Chris Siegel says LGS was just hitting their stride after the release of Thief and he's glad they can finally continue that legacy.

They're looking at Civilization and other non-RPGs for Underworld's diplomacy mechanics.

Tim considers FO3, FO:NV and Dishonored the closest AAA games to embodying the LGS philosophy. He has nothing good to say about Thi4f.

He doesn't like the MGS games because of the cutscenes and boss fights, but is interested in checking out the new one.

Lots of talk about the creative process. Going from brainstorming to putting it all together.

Tim Stellmach speaks of a memorable conversation he had with Doug Church back in the day about nailing those moments in a game where the system is "unstable". Chris Siegel talks about those moments in an unscripted game where the system "breaks down" and something amazing happens. These are the moments they consider most emotionally engaging.

Chris thinks the Battlefield series has gotten worse with each installment because it's less systemically flexible (guys riding on the wings of airplanes )

Chris says game development is mostly art today, little gameplay, little systems. Tim says if game developers took only 3% of the kind of AI research being done academically nowadays, it could change everything.

Tim thinks RPG developers are too pigeonholed in their genre. They should be looking at pet games and Japanese dating sims as influence for character mechanics.

Both Chris and the interviewer think that the AI Valve used for Left 4 Dead was impressive, but "now they have Steam so they don't need to develop that stuff anymore".

The interviewer asks them about the isometric Kickstarter RPGs. They've played Shadowrun and Wasteland 2 a little bit. Clearly not their thing, but they get the idea. Bringing back a dead genre that publishers didn't think was big enough, cool beans.

Chris Siegel thinks publishers are releasing their old games on GOG now as a form of market research. See what sticks, maybe bring it back. "You can bet that Disney are looking at Star Citizen now to see if they should make a Star Wars version of that."

 

[Darkzone]

Chris says game development is mostly art today, little gameplay, little systems. Tim says if game developers took only 3% of the kind of AI research being done academically nowadays, it could change everything.
Tim thinks RPG developers are too pigeonholed in their genre. They should be looking at pet games and Japanese dating sims as influence for character mechanics.
Both Chris and the interviewer think that the AI Valve used for Left 4 Dead was impressive, but "now they have Steam so they don't need to develop that stuff anymore".

On this topic Tim is certainly correct.

 

[Infinitron]

Tim and Chris are okay with Kickstarters that have publisher backing like Bloodstained, Shenmue, etc. As long as it helps make a game that wouldn't have been made and it doesn't hurt the smaller games, it's cool. Chris thinks publishers will never really like Kickstarter though, it takes away their control.

The interviewer thinks the isometric Kickstarter RPGs are good but old-fashioned, not innovative enough.

Tim says that's okay, they have to focus on nostalgia at first. Just bringing the franchise back is risky enough. In the future though, he hopes they innovate. Wasteland 3 will not be successful if it's just a Wasteland 2 clone, he says.

 

[Excidium II]

I hope he's right.

 

[Infinitron]

Now they're talking about MMOs. Chris says nobody will ever come close to World of Warcraft. Do something new.

Interviewer complains about Blizzard polishing and dumbing everything down. And plagiarizing Games Workshop. He was also very disappointed with TESO and TOR.

Survival games like DayZ are the most interesting games coming out in the MMO space today, Chris says. Eventually an AAA will find out how to do that.

Games they're playing now:

Chris Siegel: Underworld Ascendant ( ), Dishonored, Star Trek Online

Also Doom 2 co-op with one of his kids, and he's in the middle of a stalled ironman/hardcore XCOM playthrough. He wants to start Witcher 3 but hasn't gotten to it yet.

Chris is actually excited about the new DOOM now that all the old developers are gone, "because it's being made by people who are actually fanboys of the old ones". Bit wishful thinking there perhaps

Tim Stellmach: Fallout Shelter (he's an Android nerd), Don't Starve (lots of it), The Magic Circle

And that's about it. Good interview, although it's not really about Underworld Ascendant at all!

 

[Renevent]

Tim considers FO3, FO:NV and Dishonored the closest AAA games to embodying the LGS philosophy. He has nothing good to say about Thi4f.

Pretty good examples, though I personally feel Arx Fatalis is closer. Maybe it's not considered AAA or wasn't recent enough...wonder what he thinks of it though.

 

[Infinitron]

Pretty good examples, though I personally feel Arx Fatalis is closer. Maybe it's not considered AAA or wasn't recent enough...wonder what he thinks of it though.

Yeah he was talking about recent games obviously, otherwise he might as well have mentioned the original Deus Ex.

The Ascendant guys have talked about Arx a little bit before. I get the impression they think it was a little bit too slavishly imitative, and they also don't seem to be huge fans of the spellcasting.

 

[Renevent]

Yeah he was talking about recent games obviously, otherwise he might as well have mentioned the original Deus Ex.

The Ascendant guys have talked about Arx a little bit before, I get the impression they thought it was a little bit too slavishly imitative, and they also don't seem to be huge fans of the spellcasting.

Well, Fallout 3 was released over 7 years ago so it's not exactly that recent. Granted Arx was done 13 years ago heh...

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Arx is actually fairly heavily scripted, has lots of cutscenes and was mechanically stiff as compared to UW. The atmosphere and audio they nailed particularly in the early levels. They did a nice job of leveraging more recent tech.

 

[tuluse]

Fallout 3 was scripted to hell too if you actually did the main story. Of course you could just fuck around an never see any of it.

 

[Infinitron]

Tim is okay with a little bit of scripting to get the player going. You can bet that they didn't much like the dwarf level in Arx, though.

 

[V_K]

You can bet that they didn't much like the dwarf level in Arx, though.

You know anyone who did?

 

[Renevent]

Arx is actually fairly heavily scripted, has lots of cutscenes and was mechanically stiff as compared to UW. The atmosphere and audio they nailed particularly in the early levels. They did a nice job of leveraging more recent tech.

Lots of cut scenes? I personally don't think that is the case...I haven't played it in about 5 years of course but I don't remember that many at all. In fact, I can't remember any actual cutscenes sans the short one in the beginning and the one at the end. Even the first one was a few words and the camera panning, not what I would consider all that intrusive.

Regarding the mechanics, for it's time and it's genre (FPS RPG) I disagree there as well. It made great use of physics, gave you a lot of freedom in how to approach problems, had some nice exploration tools (floating spells for example), and had a ton of environmental interaction. Loved how you could put a piece of chicken next to a fire and it would in real time cook...and of course the audio work in the game was amazing. I also thought combat was better than Morrowind. Enemies reacted more realistically, if you injured them enough they would cry in pain and run away, and you could decapitate/cut off arms and legs.

Anyways not saying it's on par with UW in those departments, but I personally think Arx is the game that came closest to capturing it's essence.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Lots of cut scenes? I personally don't think that is the case...I haven't played it in about 5 years of course but I don't remember that many at all. In fact, I can't remember any actual cutscenes sans the short one in the beginning and the one at the end. Even the first one was a few words and the camera panning, not what I would consider all that intrusive.

Regarding the mechanics, for it's time and it's genre (FPS RPG) I disagree there as well. It made great use of physics, gave you a lot of freedom in how to approach problems, had some nice exploration tools (floating spells for example), and had a ton of environmental interaction. Loved how you could put a piece of chicken next to a fire and it would in real time cook...and of course the audio work in the game was amazing. I also thought combat was better than Morrowind. Enemies reacted more realistically, if you injured them enough they would cry in pain and run away, and you could decapitate/cut off arms and legs.

Anyways not saying it's on par with UW in those departments, but I personally think Arx is the game that came closest to capturing it's essence.

Nothing has come closer than Arx agreed.

There are many in-engine cutscenes and scripted/cutscene style NPC interactions throughout. Cooking was cool. I remember Arkane talking about its implementation. They were influenced by U7 there and they did a good job IMO.

I spent a bunch of time screwing around with quest/plot related scripting around the Goblin King. That place is heavily scripted. Plenty of interaction such as putting wine or poison into dough while the cook was making his pies, screwing with the egotist Goblin who wants to be king, getting into the vault, etc. Fun, but everything in that area can only go down the predetermined way. That or you can kill everyone.

I don't have an issue with scripting if it leads to compelling play. In UW you were never pulled out of your avatar's perspective unless having dream sequence. There were no visual cues that this can combine with that or that this button is pressable, or that you can use this rope on that pulley, etc. That goes a very long way IMO because you figure shit out on your own using objects at your disposal and plausible simulation. In Arx I can grab an item and pixel hunt for objects to interact with - they light up when I find one. Speaking to an NPC that is plot aligned usually leads to an out of body experience while my character and the NPC have a conversation. All of these things detract IMO.

Mechanically there are few innovations over UW 15 years before it. Liberatis added some good advancements in alchemy and crafting which I hope Tim and company will take inspiration from.

 

[Infinitron]

Wacky brainstorming:

Issue #11, September 28th 2015


CURIOUS CONVERSATIONS AT THE OTHERSIDE LUNCH TABLE
There are lots of great things about working at a game development studio, especially a small scrappy studio like OtherSide Entertainment. Cool people, casual dress, the chance to build the game of your dreams...

One of the best perks is the quirky discussions you find yourself in on a regular basis. From conversations about the latest movies to recent scientific discoveries to which fantasy author is the best of all time, these discussions are an entertaining hotbed of nerdy fanboy fun. Especially when the group starts talking about whacky design directions for the game they are making. Things start to get weird and quick!

This week we thought we’d share a couple of these whacky conversations with you, to let you in on what goes on at the OtherSide lunch table!


“How do you tell time in the Underworld?”

Since the Underworld exists underground, how would its inhabitants know what time of day it was without a sun, moon or stars to go by? When this question was casually asked one afternoon it immediately spawned a slew of responses ranging from reasonable to …unorthodox. And before we concluded that this wasn’t necessarily an issue we needed to solve (after all, people got by perfectly fine in the real world for thousands of years without watches, even on cloudy days!) we went down so many design rabbit-holes we started growing cotton tails.

The first solution was to have a character, likely a dwarf, be the “Time Keeper” of the Underworld. His sole job, day in and day out, would be to watch the one functioning hourglass in the Abyss and to turn it over immediately when its sands ran their course. All other people in the Underworld would rely upon this esteemed figure to determine when to pull their bread out of the oven, or how long they had been on guard duty.

Reasonable but perhaps a little boring. So, someone brought up flatulence. What if Deepslugs, the Underworld’s equivalent of domesticated cows, had gassy discharges every hour on the hour? Interesting solution, if an unpleasant one for Underworld herdsmen. This in turn spawned the idea of telepathic fungi that lets out a psychic scream every half hour that everyone in the Underworld can “hear”, like a terrifying grandfather clock.

Predictable fissures, like Ole Faithful, came up, as well as plant life that blooms at exactly noon and midnight each day. Another solution was the idea of an increase and decrease to the flow of lava throughout the Underworld based on the time of day. Markings on the channel walls would let everyone know if it was “highlava” or “lowtrickle” time.

Who knows, some of these ideas might even make it into the game. Not the flatulence one, though. We promise.


“What can you do with a giant mushroom?”

As part of our early prototype of the game, we had a character cast a Grow Mushroom spell to block a swarm of spiders coming down a passageway. We thought that was an interesting and different use for such a spell. Naturally, it immediately got us talking about what other uses there might be for giant mushrooms, or their caps...

A spongy shield, a comfortable helmet, a boat for crossing water, an umbrella for when it rains in the Underworld (?!?), a trampoline for jumping up to secret ledges, a Frisbee for…uh…playing ultimate mushroom, snowshoes for when traveling in the ice caves, a sled for traveling even faster in ice caves, a plug for spider holes, a Shambler costume, a signpost (“Caution, Lurker”), a drum, a pillow.

Then someone brought up that magic mushrooms would likely have some special properties. This opened up a whole new line of thinking:

A fireproof mushroom boat for crossing lava, a mushroom to eat and make you small, a mushroom to eat and make you big, glowing mushrooms to light up a room, super big mushrooms to dam a river, super big fireproof mushrooms to dam a lava flow, super big mushrooms to build a house from, singing mushrooms as alarm systems, exploding mushrooms as booby-traps, and psychic screaming mushrooms as clocks.

Turns out, this might just be the most important spell in all the Underworld!

What do you think? Have anything to add to either of these conversations? If so, head on over to the forums and tell us!

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

OK I agree with Zep. This update sucks.

 

[Old Hans]

I'm more interested in a well designed dungeon. Ultima Underworld nailed it in 1992, from beginning to end. That game is just perfect. I cant think of anything wrong with it. Stuff like location based damage is a waste of time. "Stealthy AI" that stalks you? give me a break.

 

[Excidium II]

Stuff like location based damage is a waste of time.

Kill you're self.

 

[Mustawd]

OK I agree with Zep. This update sucks.

Agreed...




I was right all along


--Zep

 

[Immortal]

Zep may have an unhealthy obsession with this game.. kinda like me with PoE..

But I gotta say.. this game sounds fucking horrible and the devs seem clueless.. That KS money is going down the toilet.

 

[Bubbles]

Zep's been gone for a month now; maybe even he couldn't muster the energy to pay attention to these updates anymore.

Bubbles--