Unofficial Oblivion preview!!! Must see to believe!

[fnordcircle]

Really? So, it's either I ignore the taking things out aka dumbing down trend or I'm a Daggerfall fanboy? Btw, Beth is dumbing the game concept down. Less is rarely more.

This coming from the same sort of people who shit on Morrowind's giant explorable landmass as too bland and they'd rather it was smaller and more to their tastes.
Whatever, I'd rather have 21 really well-done skills than 27 skills which had some meh skills or seemingly redundant ones (Acrobatics and Athletics).

Regardless I hope to be enjoying myself playing a game for hundreds of hours starting in November while the Codex hopes to be able to point and laugh at people who paid $50 for a game that doesn't fit the Codex's exacting standards. That says something right there. Do you people even play video games anymore or are you too busy bitching endlessly?

 

[corvax]

Not reflective of the quotes meaning Oblivion won't be all about: bloom, forests, Patrick Stewart, and horses. Underneath there'll be a pretty fun exploration/adventure/live in fantasy world game with strong rpg undertones. The only question remains whether those undertonses will be stronger than in Morrowind - And that is what you should be talking about in your fake preview!

Dumbing the concept down? Maybe yes, maybe no. Everyting in Daggerfall and Arena was so horribly stale and sterile that it made no diffierence whether there was 2 or 200 guilds. Everything felt the same. As far as skills go - less can indeed be more. Things like speechcraft if done correctly (not like in MW) could indeed replace 2 or 3 speech related skills in previous games. Same goes for weapons.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Oblivion is the only major game that's coming soon. That's why I pay a lot of attention to it. Simple as that.

Your definition of 'paying a lot of attention' must include drawing tenuous parallels and throwing shit incessantly, I guess.

I wish I could be a real journalist and post something cool about RADIANT AI AND PATRIC STEWART! Speaking of which, here is the latest interview dedicated to what's important in any RPG: NPCs having a schedule and the construction set. Look at the noob, he forgot to ask about PATRIC STEWART!!!!

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?optio ... 7&Itemid=2

Hey, newsflash the Codex hates a game they've never played, I fucking get it can we move on to whatever now?

Hey, newsflash, we actually read preview/interviews instead of posting threads like How long will you wait once OB is released? and If you died while playing Oblivion.

 

[corvax]

Do you people even play video games anymore or are you too busy bitching endlessly?

True that. VD you're a cool guy and all but you've gotta pull that stick outta your ass.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Whatever, I'd rather have 21 really well-done skills than 27 skills which had some meh skills or seemingly redundant ones (Acrobatics and Athletics).

Sure. Assuming that they are well done, of course.

Regardless I hope to be enjoying myself playing a game for hundreds of hours starting in November...

Knock yourself out

while the Codex hopes to be able to point and laugh at people who paid $50 for a game that doesn't fit the Codex's exacting standards. That says something right there. Do you people even play video games anymore or are you too busy bitching endlessly?

What's with making shit up? You are well aware that we play a lot of all kinds of RPGs. Even DS2 is getting some attention now. Most folks here played MW, I'm pretty sure that a lot of them will buy Oblivion. So, what's with the rant? Trying to make yourself look stupid?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Not reflective of the quotes meaning Oblivion won't be all about: bloom, forests, Patrick Stewart, and horses.

I thought I "covered" combat, the AI thing, new magic, skills, etc

Underneath there'll be a pretty fun exploration/adventure/live in fantasy world game with strong rpg undertones.

Maybe. MW was a decent exploration game, but a weak RPG. Similarly BG2 was a great linear adventure, but a weak RPG. Since this site is sorta focused on RPGs, we discuss those aspects. It's possible that the new combat is totally awesome and as good as Die by the Sword's or Jedi Academy's combat. Has nothing to do with role-playing though.

The only question remains whether those undertonses will be stronger than in Morrowind - And that is what you should be talking about in your fake preview!

That is one thing that nobody can answer so why bother guessing?

Dumbing the concept down? Maybe yes, maybe no. Everyting in Daggerfall and Arena was so horribly stale and sterile that it made no diffierence whether there was 2 or 200 guilds.

Things like that are important in ...what did you call it?...exploration/adventure/live in fantasy world game.

As far as skills go - less can indeed be more. Things like speechcraft if done correctly (not like in MW) could indeed replace 2 or 3 speech related skills in previous games. Same goes for weapons.

How about one skill called WEAPON? No? Why not? If done correctly and spectacularly, it could indeed replace 2 or 3 or 5 combat related skills.

Diverse skills help create diverse and interesting characters without artificial restrictions. For example, in DF you could make a thief who specialized in S/Blade, Backstab, Sneaking (to get close for that Backstab), Streetwise (makes sense), Climbing for handling walls, etc. Now, if you have a character who has Blade, Sneaking, Persuasion, and some sport skill like Acrobatic or Athletic, it's gonna be too generic, just like most other characters.

 

[corvax]

The only question remains whether those undertonses will be stronger than in Morrowind - And that is what you should be talking about in your fake preview!

That is one thing that nobody can answer so why bother guessing?

Because you said it yourself - this site is sorta focused on RPGs. Something you haven't done in your preview.

Diverse skills help create diverse and interesting characters without artificial restrictions. For example, in DF you could make a thief who specialized in S/Blade, Backstab, Sneaking (to get close for that Backstab), Streetwise (makes sense), Climbing for handling walls, etc. Now, if you have a character who has Blade, Sneaking, Persuasion, and some sport skill like Acrobatic or Athletic, it's gonna be too generic, just like most other characters.

Too generic? Not as long as the character will be able to do the same things. But I guess you'd rather have the "proper" labels.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The only question remains whether those undertonses will be stronger than in Morrowind - And that is what you should be talking about in your fake preview!

That is one thing that nobody can answer so why bother guessing?

Because you said it yourself - this site is sorta focused on RPGs. Something you haven't done in your preview.

I did. You didn't notice.

Diverse skills help create diverse and interesting characters without artificial restrictions. For example, in DF you could make a thief who specialized in S/Blade, Backstab, Sneaking (to get close for that Backstab), Streetwise (makes sense), Climbing for handling walls, etc. Now, if you have a character who has Blade, Sneaking, Persuasion, and some sport skill like Acrobatic or Athletic, it's gonna be too generic, just like most other characters.

Too generic? Not as long as the character will be able to do the same things. But I guess you'd rather have the "proper" labels.

It's not about the labels, it's about having skills that correspond to those actions, because that's what define your characters. Backstab/Critical Strike/Dagger defines your character better than Blade. Climbing and Swimming with specific functions attached define better than generic Athletic that lets you run faster, etc.

 

[corvax]

I did. You didn't notice.

Yeah. Sorry I missed the part where you cover the spanking new dialogue system, different ways to solve quests, new magic system, npc's, how a character affects the world around them, etc. Oh, wait! Those things haven't been revealed yet. What was revealed has very little to do with RPGing and since your preview was based on just that, therefore it also has very little to do with RPGing. Game over.

It's not about the labels, it's about having skills that correspond to those actions, because that's what define your characters. Backstab/Critical Strike/Dagger defines your character better than Blade. Climbing and Swimming with specific functions attached define better than generic Athletic that lets you run faster, etc.

Not necessarily and it's not THAT big of a deal. It also makes sense to me to have Athletics cover Climbing and Swimming...after all athletic characters shouldn't have a problem doing those things.

 

[Spazmo]

Well it's hardly VD's fault that in the ten or eleven months (Oblivion was officially announced September 10th last year) almost nothing substantial or interesting has been said about the game in the masses of interviews and previews on it. Shit, I think that's pretty much the point he's trying to make: the hype on this game so far is accentuating the wrong aspects of the game and really making it look ridiculous as soon as you get over the DYNAMIC SOIL EROSION! and PATRICK STEWART! Although if you couldn't figure out that the whole thing is tongue-in-cheek, you're probably the type who's already been won over by the screenshots and doesn't care about anything else.

 

[corvax]

Shit, I think that's pretty much the point he's trying to make: the hype on this game so far is accentuating the wrong aspects of the game and really making it look ridiculous as soon as you get over the DYNAMIC SOIL EROSION! and PATRICK STEWART! Although if you couldn't figure out that the whole thing is tongue-in-cheek, you're probably the type who's already been won over by the screenshots and doesn't care about anything else.

I know that. I'm just busting VD's balls for being an angry cunt :wink:

 

[Vault Dweller]

I did. You didn't notice.

Yeah. Sorry I missed the part where you cover the spanking new dialogue system

It's ok, I forgive you. Here is a snipet for you: "After overhearing this news, we had the attack itself added to our journal as a new dialogue topic". Dialogue Topics. There.

... different ways to solve quests

Sorry, I don't post BS. Saying "we have tons of new ways to solve quests" without examples doesn't count. An option to go through the door or OMG! through the window doesn't count either. MSFD hinted that new quests are like totally amazing, but then again, he said the same thing about the magic system. As Spazmo pointed out, the whole point was to post quotes about what's actually been revealed and focused on right now. Like forests. They are real and they are spectacular

new magic system

You do know how to read, don't you? There is a large section conviniently named MAGIC, what more do you want?

npcs

Look under the Radiant AI system

how a character affects the world around them

It doesn't.

Oh, wait! Those things haven't been revealed yet. What was revealed has very little to do with RPGing and since your preview was based on just that, therefore it also has very little to do with RPGing. Game over.

lol. The game is in final stages now. What hasn't been mentioned likely doesn't exist.

Not necessarily and it's not THAT big of a deal. It also makes sense to me to have Athletics cover Climbing and Swimming...after all athletic characters shouldn't have a problem doing those things.

I hope in the future you'd be able just to pick a class like FIGHTAR without any skills, and your character would be able to do everything that's expected from him. Won't that be awesome?

 

[Vykromond]

What hasn't been mentioned likely doesn't exist.

Yeah, like any of the quests in the game. I guess it'll just be questless

 

[Vault Dweller]

They have been mentioned. Anything else?

 

[Claw]

Ah grasshopper, you've discovered the great RP secret. The correct answer is you abstract out the detailed expertise required for persuasion into some numbers, modifieres, and algorithms then you roll dice and make up nice descriptions. But if you suggest this, you'll be kicked out and called a "Munchkin" or told to learn how to roleplay.

I am not even sure what your point is, but I strongly disagree. There are many RPG players, especially among the "harcore" group, who want stats to affect dialogue, both in regard to options and outcome. That isn't drastically different from choosing actions in combat. If it tends to be underused in actual RPGs, it's the developers' fault.

I blame Zufuriin who was obviously sent here to create confusion and chaos.

Well, he said he blew his mind.

Heck, Fallout 1 & 2 could run on a Nintendo DS and KEEP the mouse input. A HANDHELD.

That's a nice theory.

Whatever, I'd rather have 21 really well-done skills than 27 skills which had some meh skills or seemingly redundant ones (Acrobatics and Athletics).

Oh great. Talking Points. Just what every debate needs.

 

[corvax]

I did. You didn't notice.

Yeah. Sorry I missed the part where you cover the spanking new dialogue system

It's ok, I forgive you. Here is a snipet for you: "After overhearing this news, we had the attack itself added to our journal as a new dialogue topic". Dialogue Topics. There.

In detail dufus! Here's my beef. You take something like this and then construe the whole dialogue system when in fact you just don't know. Doing so I believe is called "bullshiting" or "shooting crap". It gets even worse when you start taking your fake preview seriously. This goes for the rest of your examples.

lol. The game is in final stages now. What hasn't been mentioned likely doesn't exist.

Another example of bullshiting.

I hope in the future you'd be able just to pick a class like FIGHTAR without any skills, and your character would be able to do everything that's expected from him. Won't that be awesome?

As long as there's FATALITIEZ and combo attacks I'm cool!
I'm talking about reaching a balance between too many (some unnecessary skills) and a nice manageable number without sacrificing too much.

 

[Vault Dweller]

In detail dufus! Here's my beef. You take something like this and then construe the whole dialogue system when in fact you just don't know. Doing so I believe is called "bullshiting" or "shooting crap". It gets even worse when you start taking your fake preview seriously.

Oh, I see. Well, assuming that you haven't played previous TES games and have no idea what dialogue topics mean, your point is very valid. However....

This goes for the rest of your examples.

Very convinient. Something like "I refuse to see the signs because I want to believe that OB will be totally awesome!". I assume you live somewhere where the expression "it's a free country" applies, so suit yourself.

lol. The game is in final stages now. What hasn't been mentioned likely doesn't exist.

Another example of bullshiting.

Or common logic. Really, what do you expect? What haven't you heard?

I'm talking about reaching a balance between too many (some unnecessary skills) and a nice manageable number without sacrificing too much.

Unnecessary and poorly supported skills are useless, that goes without saying. However, skills like Climbing and Short Blade that Beth cut from DF and MW were rather handy. Climbing does wonders in an exploration game.

.

 

[corvax]

Very convinient. Something like "I refuse to see the signs because I want to believe that OB will be totally awesome!". I assume you live somewhere where the expression "it's a free country" applies, so suit yourself.

Oh, I see the signs. Forgive me for not being an angry cunt about it.

Or common logic. Really, what do you expect? What haven't you heard?

There's a fine line between "common logic" and bullshiting. Inductive inferences is what you're making. I'm not a big fan of those, especially when it comes to supporting an argument.

Unnecessary and poorly supported skills are useless, that goes without saying. However, skills like Climbing and Short Blade that Beth cut from DF and MW were rather handy. Climbing does wonders in an exploration game.

To each his own. It makes very little difference to me (and I guess to a whole lot other people) that Blades now include Short and Long Blades. That still doesn't stop me from playing a character that uses short blades. Yes it would be fun to have climbing implemented but once again there wouldn't be a huge difference if it was under athletics or as a separate skill. Then again it would be weird to have a super athletic character who cannot climb even the smallest rock. IMO that's being a little picky. I can imagine someone with similar mindset complaining because they can't make an anti-social, left-handed character who is good at using silver blades that are anywhere between 2 and 3 feet long...or something along those lines.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Or common logic. Really, what do you expect? What haven't you heard?

There's a fine line between "common logic" and bullshiting. Inductive inferences is what you're making. I'm not a big fan of those, especially when it comes to supporting an argument.

Ok, fine. I repeat what do you expect to hear? If I'm so clearly wrong, it shouldn't take your long to come up with an answer.

To each his own. It makes very little difference to me (and I guess to a whole lot other people) that Blades now include Short and Long Blades. That still doesn't stop me from playing a character that uses short blades. Yes it would be fun to have climbing implemented but once again there wouldn't be a huge difference if it was under athletics or as a separate skill.

I'm sure you know that I strongly believe that skills not your will as a player define RPGs and separates them from shooters and adventure games. With one Blade skill you can't role-play a character who's great with a small blade but has never mastered swords, because with one skill he's good or great with every bladed weapon in the world. Same with guilds. Sure, you the player can keep your character from joining and getting to the top of every guild, but it's your characters actions that should stop you from doing so. See the difference?

Then again it would be weird to have a super athletic character who cannot climb even the smallest rock.

Who cares about small rocks? We are talking about climbing walls and mountains and effectively replacing levitation with something else. That's a skill. I doubt that every athlete can climb mountains, just like I doubt that a guy who's great with a dagger is equally great with a dai katana.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

True, but what is so bad about moving to a hybrid-genre? Or even a combination of multiple genres, as long as they are not half-assed? Why can't a game be a great RPG and equally great in elements of another genre? (This will not be the case for TESIV, just hypothetical)

The problem would be when you hybrid the genre to the point when there's nothing really left of the original genre. Hell, just look at the front page news here. Just about every news post is about an action CRPG. This is primarily because that's all that's being made right now. While there are a few others out there, things being made in Russia which might have questionable quality or poor translations, the vast majority are action CRPGs.

The question really isn't what's wrong with hybrids, the question is what's wrong with offering diversity?

 

[corvax]

Ok, fine. I repeat what do you expect to hear? If I'm so clearly wrong, it shouldn't take your long to come up with an answer.

You're wrong by taking yourself seriously when you assume conclusions that are mostly based on silly quotes. I'm not coming up with an answer because I'm not willing to go out on a limb with Oblivion by stating whether it will suck or whether it will be teh best even if the things that have been revealed are quite irrelevant bits of information. However I am willing to clearly point out that none of the serious issues have been addressed in detail which is worrisome. See the difference? We're almost on the same page but you're just willing to take that extra step.

I'm sure you know that I strongly believe that skills not your will as a player define RPGs and separates them from shooters and adventure games. With one Blade skill you can't role-play a character who's great with a small blade but has never mastered swords, because with one skill he's good or great with every bladed weapon in the world.

As long as you stick to only using short bladed weapons. Would that really kill your role-playing? I appreciate your attention to detail though.

Same with guilds. Sure, you the player can keep your character from joining and getting to the top of every guild, but it's your characters actions that should stop you from doing so. See the difference?

I see your point. However it's a little different with guilds though. Restricting myself to using only short weapons would have a much lesser effect on my role-playing than restricting myself to only one guild. It might seem contradictory to you but I do have a problem with the guild system (being able to join too many) in Morrowind, however once again the weapon issue wouldn't bother me so much.

Who cares about small rocks? We are talking about climbing walls and mountains and effectively replacing levitation with something else. That's a skill. I doubt that every athlete can climb mountains, just like I doubt that a guy who's great with a dagger is equally great with a dai katana.

You're right about the katana part but it's still silly to have an athletic character who can't climb. Or an athelically challenged character who is an excellent climber. See the downfalls of having too many skills? Either way you go, you can't have your cake and eat it too...there's got to be some sacrifices.

 

[Spazmo]

Then again it would be weird to have a super athletic character who cannot climb even the smallest rock. IMO that's being a little picky.

It is very easy to handle this without the cop out of merging all skills you possibly can. You just need skill synergy bonuses. First off, all skills ought to be related to an attribute (e.g., strength, dexterity, etc) so that your basic physical (or mental, depending on the skill) characteristics matter. Then, related skills should give bonuses to each other. For example, for every ten points you invest in athletics, you get a +1 bonus to your climb skill. This system works just great in d20 (though d20's synergy bonuses are very conservative) and hopefully will be just fine in VD's Age of Decadence.

 

[Sarvis]

You're right about the katana part but it's still silly to have an athletic character who can't climb.

You might also say it's silly to have a great basketball player who can't play baseball... but then you might notice that Michael Jordan sucked at baseball.

Just being "athletic" doesn't grant you greatness at every single sport. I doubt mountain climbers would be very good at basketball, unless they were also basketball players. Swimmers probably aren't very good very good gymnasts either.

Each sport has it's own specialties and requirements, and your example of climbing was poorly chosen in particular because there is a lot of specialized knowledge for such a sport.

Synergy bonuses would be much better, but for that you need lots of skills to synergize with.

Enough points in water polo might give you a little bonus in swimming, for example... but just saying someone is "athletic" so they are expert at every sport is a lot like saying a person with a doctorate in literature would be a great choice for your next surgeon!

 

[Jed]

The funny thing is is that I'm as big of a fan of the TES series as anyone who visits this dumb but I'm nowhere near as obssessed with the title as VD. Seriously, you're like a video game stalker or something dude.

This from the guy who's obsessed with Vault Dweller and stalks the forums to tell us what a "hivemind" we are for deviating from mainstream/causual gaming tastes.

That says something right there. Do you people even play video games anymore or are you too busy bitching endlessly?

How is it you find time to game when you waste so much time on a site whose content & members you only disagree with?

Oh, and DU---page six. Time to pony up.

 

[corvax]

Just being "athletic" doesn't grant you greatness at every single sport. I doubt mountain climbers would be very good at basketball, unless they were also basketball players. Swimmers probably aren't very good very good gymnasts either.

True but being athletic predisposes you to suceed in every single sport (oh and bowling, nascar, darts aren't sports) Also consider the other side. A completely unathletic character who is a superb climber. That's not odd? Note that I'm not trying to bash VD's stance as I could just as easily role-play with those extra skills. Simply I wanted to point out few inadequacies, that's all.

Synergy bonuses would be much better, but for that you need lots of skills to synergize with.

Yup.