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Urban Strife - turn-based zombie survival RPG - now available on Early Access

Zombra

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Fair enough, but then the question becomes: is it good for gameplay if every intelligent unit can be in 99% cover 99% of the time?
To me it is good because a unit might be in 99% cover from being shot but than the player has to think what other options are there. Throw a smoke grenade to close the distance. Suppress the enemy and flank. Sneak and kill him with melee. Just run straight at him hoping he misses and throw a grenade at him. Or use a rocket launcher. The same could be said to crouch true, but more options lead to more problems/solutions, what makes an game more interesting, at least to me.
What you're describing sounds neat, but very out of scope for a game of this type, even out of scope for a deeper Jagged Alliance 2. Impossible to balance and suddenly now every map needs to be designed so that none of these strategies is too effective, except sometimes they are so people can still use them. In practice this will lead to situations where the player just throws smoke grenades everywhere and maxes out their Melee skill, and clears every map without ever being shot. And every map will have to be built as a set piece with "Should we allow this, or should this map be very windy so that won't work here?" It would turn this into either a steamroll with one tactic that dominates every time, or less of a combat game and more of a puzzle game. I like having some tactical options of course but "more more more options" often devalues strong gameplay.
 

PanteraNera

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What you're describing sounds neat, but very out of scope for a game of this type, even out of scope for a deeper Jagged Alliance 2. Impossible to balance and suddenly now every map needs to be designed so that none of these strategies is too effective, except sometimes they are so people can still use them. In practice this will lead to situations where the player just throws smoke grenades everywhere and maxes out their Melee skill, and clears every map without ever being shot. And every map will have to be built as a set piece with "Should we allow this, or should this map be very windy so that won't work here?" It would turn this into either a steamroll with one tactic that dominates every time, or less of a combat game and more of a puzzle game. I like having some tactical options of course but "more more more options" often devalues strong gameplay.
Strange, I do remember several occasions in Jagged Alliance 2 where I used explosions to get an alternative access point, cause if I went through the main door I would get shot up badly. Sneaking and backstabbing? Several times.
In UFO:EU you could use the blaster launcher to make a hole into UFO's so you would have an advantage. How often had I used plasma rifles (or an auto canon) to raze a wall to kill an alien behind it. UFO:EU also had smoke, breaking LOS.
In old games a lot of these things were already do-able.
Sure it does need balancing. Blaster launcher in UFO:EU were balanced because you needed rare resources (elirium) to craft them, and elirium was also used as fuel, so you didn't want to run out of it.
Is or was that all more of a puzzle game for you?

If smoke grenades are to powerful, you just make them more rare (also grenade and rockets), on the plus side this is absolutely believable in a post-apocalyptic game world. Try to keep spamming things you don't poses.

If Urban Strife is really just CQC it would be pretty wise to max out Melee skill. Cause you free up more resources for other things than on ammunition.

Honestly you need QA for this, people that are payed for to look for weaknesses (exploits) in your game. Everything can be balanced, if you are willing to do it.
Sure if you are on a tight budget it may be more profitable to scrap things, stream-line things. But yeah in my eyes being a profitable game does not necessarily translates into a good game.
I am still heart broken by the thought how much money game companies have to spent on games and how much less it was in "the golden era" (XCOM:EU, Jagged Alliance 2, Fallout).
Imagine they had access to that kind of money, I wonder what they would have made out of it.
 

Togukawa

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JA2 will probably never be equalled. The target audience has changed.

Still, even though US won't have a fraction of the depth of JA2, it should still be a good game. It can make up for that by a good base building mechanic, and better story and rpg elements.
 

Zombra

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PanteraNera I don't disagree with any of that in general, but I stand by what I said that more is not always better. Feature creep is a real thing and every new dimension added has to be balanced against all the others, or the experience becomes a sandbox of broken toys, which speaking for myself is not what I want.

I do think it's ridiculous to characterize the development of this game as being profit-oriented instead of quality-oriented. We have been shown so much incline and so many excellent ideas. It's really, really okay for them to not spend development time on every single idea suggested by every single person. That doesn't make them lazy or "unwilling" to make a fantastic game.

Luckily the devs here seem to not only have great design ideas, but a solid handle on project management. We can throw out ideas all day long but it takes a steady hand to actually get the ship where it's going instead of stopping to investigate every trick of the light.
USG_Mucifikatorul I believe in you.
love.png
 

Harthwain

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Imagine they had access to that kind of money, I wonder what they would have made out of it.
It's a common misconception that "more money" equals "more and better". Limitations are much better creativity stimulant. Just compare The Outer World (the supposed magnum opus of Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky) with Fallout.
 

PanteraNera

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Ah Zombra that is why you are one of the few people on the codex I really like to reply to, I totally agree and understand what you are talking about .

I do believe as well that Urban Strife will be a good (modern) game, with some elements from the golden age.

In fact I was following the progress of the game since the first time it was posted here, but didn't wanted to get to excited, for features I imagined it should have ( especially when mentioning Jagged Alliance 2)or features that get scrapped.

I also wanted to apply to the closed alpha but resisted as I reminded myself getting burned out from early access of Dead State and Phoenix Point Backer Builds.

I will hopefully be able to wait for Urban Strife to be out for a while getting some patches and/or DLC's before I play it.

I guess the main difference between the two of us is that you moved on and were able to keep enjoying playing games. I seldom enjoy playing games these days as they are, to me lacking.

Just to make it clear I look forward for a game that has the complexity on the strategy layer as JA 2 and UFO:EU in a simulated world, with a real economy (AI gathering resources, building stuff from it, trading with each other and the player). The AI able to expand, use diplomacy, Raiders doing their thing and all even if the player is not around). And a tactical layer that builds up on JA2 1.13. And that all in a post-apocalyptic setting.
I always dreamed of a game were I would come back to a village to find out that things changed, like the build new buildings, were attacked by Raiders or what ever.

I am not looking for a 1:1 remake of a classic but for an evolution from it. To go further. Look what games were made possible with an 386. And now look what hardware we have these days? What is it used for I ask?

Maybe the big decline started with going from 2D to 3D as it often looks like most money these days are spent on graphics.
 

USG_Mucifikatorul

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.


While this is pretty old stuff, it's still entertaining to watch the AI whoop veteran TBS players. To be noted that in this kind of scenario Kordanor had a few choices that he didn't use - since he wasn't at all familiar with the game. First, high power AP rifle at that range can easily go through 2 enemies if you line them up nicely. Second, all those boys are unarmored, so using HP bullets would've been way more devastating, nevermind that using a handgun at that range is actually better than using a rifle (less AP, more dmg). And third, he had a medikit he never used.

Speaking of the AI, the whole fire stuff is being reworked, the humans will try to actively avoid fire and the immolation effects will be more dramatic, but targeting the members with crippling effects rather than general health.
The whole health system has been overhauled - this month's update will be full of interesting details on that.
 

Harthwain

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I am hoping the loot will be meaningful. You know, the NEO Scavenger's way, meaningful.
 

USG_Mucifikatorul

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Loot will tie in to survival crafting immensely.

To elaborate:

Lets say you're in pain/shock. That's a nasty affliction and it doesn't go away easy. You can loot some painkillers (if you're lucky). Or you can drink some good old alcohol. Drink too much of the fire water and you'll be drunk. Unless you have been smart enough to bring a jar of pickled veggies, sour enough to wake up a hibernating bear. And so on, and so forth...
 
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Zombra

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I've always hated "warehouse management simulation" - dragging hundreds of different icons from little boxes to other little boxes is not my idea of fun - but I'll put up with it for Urban Strife.

Note that in Jagged Alliance 2, "Tons of Guns" was an option, not built into the base game.
 

Zombra

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Note that in Jagged Alliance 2, "Tons of Guns" was an option, not built into the base game.
That increased weapon variety, not item drop rate.
Yes. And just like in JA2 which had 26 different handguns that all did the same thing with tiny variations (and each with 5 different ammo types that wouldn't work with any other gun!), USG_Mucifikatorul just described 3 different kinds of healing potion that all do the same thing, with tiny variations. Not looking forward to managing a list of 26000 different items when gameplay could be just as diverse and interesting with 200.
 

USG_Mucifikatorul

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Actually, I've just described uses for two items you'll find on the map, one common, one rare. They do both cure shock, but the secondary effects are very different. We feel it's important for the player to be able to source survival items while on the go. And when they're not available in direct form, craft/combine them from other resources.

As for guns, there will be a line-up enough to have a progression and some faction specific stuff, but less than vanilla JA2. Those who want 1000 weapons need to wait for the mods - I am sure weapon mods will be the first to be made anyway.
 

Harthwain

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USG_Mucifikatorul just described 3 different kinds of healing potion that all do the same thing, with tiny variations. Not looking forward to managing a list of 26000 different items when gameplay could be just as diverse and interesting with 200.
I disagree. You ought to be better off using painkillers than alcohol for dulling pain, because the latter is bound to impact aim (and who knows what else). Although that'd depend on how heavy the impact of alcohol is, I guess. But the principle is sound. Also, I reckon you can use alcohol for more things than as painkillers. Like, for cleaning wounds or making molotov coctails... I wonder if it's possible to mix it with gasoline, to increase its volume? I heard Russian soldiers did this (mixed vodka and diesel oil) to keep tanks running longer during Operation Bagration.
 

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