World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Wesp5]

Gamey: for example, you can only pick up one kind of each weapon so you can't stockpile knives and sell them all at the store (at least not without frequent backtracking).

Yes, most immersive sims I know have automatic vending machines where you can sell or buy or recycle anything you find to get anything you want. Completely realistic !

The multiple choices/paths/branches through Bloodlines are all determined by the designer.

And you really believe you could do anything in Deus Ex, or Prey, or other games that the designers didn't implement? Like all these vent in all the places you needed them...

 

[user]

They must also be first person.

X-Com would qualify as an "immersive sim." It's a nonsense term. The very concept of "immersive" is totally subjective. Someone could feel immersed in playing Mario 64. And what if someone speed runs a game and finds all sorts of ways to get through a level that were not intended by the developer, does that constitute emergent gameplay?

"Immersive sim" is a nonsense term.

Immersion is not a nonsense or subjective term. It does mean something. One could be immersed in anything so it depends on the person and different tastes too. But if you exclude the person factor, a game can be more immersive than others. What causes it to be more immersive, is not realism compared to real life values, it's realism compared to the game's own universe - or, the believability/consistency of its world. So it's pretty possible to be immersed in, say, pokemon etc if it has a well crafted, consistent and detailed universe. Saying something is immersive would be pointless if people's tastes were only factor, but because of the way human brain works, there are a lot of common characteristics in pretty much everyone (save the occasional serial killer), that can make something be more immersive than something else in an objective sense. For example, on the opposite spectrum, the "uncanny valley" mechanism exploits a common human psyche characteristic to create a specific horror sense which is perfectly objective.

 

[Morgoth]

VtMB was clearly an RPG, but a very immersive one. Case closed, your honor.

 

[SpaceWizardz]

List of Arkane games with good writing:


I like Arkane, but choosing them to make a followup to a game where its subject matter and dialogue is widely considered the most attractive element is not playing to their strengths.

 

[user]

Btw, if I want to talk about something, should I rez a 10+ year old thread or start my own?
Also, yes VtMB was great.

 

[Space Nugget]

What are the chances Brian Mitsoda is working at/with Hardsuit Labs? (Does he still lives in Seattle?)

 

[Space Nugget]

Chris Avellone on Martin Ka'ai Cluney (Creative Director at Hardsuit Labs):

Martin worked as a senior level designer on our Aliens title, and through it all, he showed determination, design insight, and best practices for pursuing level design hand-in-hand with developing a new engine and the tools needed to flesh out level design. I'd work with Martin again, and gladly.

Martin Ka'ai Cluney on Annie VanderMeer Mitsoda (Brian's cucking partner Content Designer at System Era Softworks):

Annie is a great resource for any development team. She is highly inquisitive, and will dig into any aspect of development that is put in front of her. On the other hand, she has the practical knowledge and intelligence to apply any findings in her future work. She's half-drill, half-sponge, and half-firehose.

She will also destroy you at Puzzle Fighter, and let you know just how shameful your game is while she's doing it.

This recommendation is one of only four you'll find on Annie's LinkedIn profile. Close friends?

She has been at System Era (developers of Astroneer) for over a year now. Maybe Brian is doing his own thing as well?

 

[Zenith]

Yes, most immersive sims I know have automatic vending machines where you can sell or buy or recycle anything you find to get anything you want. Completely realistic !

It's not about "realism" but about system consistency and player agency.
In Bloodlines, combat is often restricted. You can pick some locks but not the others. Only select few lights can be switched off. Terminal entries get added where they weren't before. Stealth is full of crutches, and distraction mechanic is barely used past the tutorial.
Most importantly, you only have very few modes of interaction with the game. You can't interact with NPCs outside dialogue and combat, and you can't interact with the world basically at all. Skills improve in a vacuum and work in a vacuum (compared to runes, nano-augs or cybermodules).
Meanwhile in Arcanum, you can break windows and lights, drag bodies, explode chests etc. Interact with NPCs not just through pre-made dialogue, but also via reputation system or pickpocketing. I'm not saying one is im.sim and the other isn't, but you get the idea.

I dislike the term "immersive sim" btw. Duke3D, STALKER or Crusader:NR are highly interactive, non-linear and systemically consistent, but you're not gonna see them brought up as examples. The modern interpretation of the term mostly comes as defined by gamejournos in the past decade, "games sharing qualities that make Bioshock a smart game" - which presents obvious problems as it's as dumb as a game could get. So they cling to story and immersion, abandoning the "sim" part entirely.

 

[Wesp5]

In Bloodlines, combat is often restricted. You can pick some locks but not the others. Only select few lights can be switched off. Terminal entries get added where they weren't before. Stealth is full of crutches, and distraction mechanic is barely used past the tutorial.

I agree. Also I would really like to have a game where every door can not only be picked, but also broken! Or where all lights can be switched off or be broken too. But it's all up to the level design and contrary to what people seem to believe, the designers must think of all these options when creating a map and this is the easier the simpler the engine is. And there is the typical danger, I'll call it the Deus Ex symptom , that the map ends up looking unrealistic exactly because it was build around offering multiple options and not about feeling like a real place.

 

[Zer0wing]

immersive sim

Pretty sure this term covers games that are "at a junction" of several genres, usually just meaning "FP-RPGs" or FPSs with some form of progression system like Prey 2017. Wait, does this make Fallout 3 an immersive sim? HOLY SHI~

 

[user]

immersive sim

Pretty sure this term covers games that are "at a junction" of several genres, usually just meaning "FP-RPGs" or FPSs with some form of progression system like Prey 2017. Wait, does this make Fallout 3 an immersive sim? HOLY SHI~

Yes and as Rick Lame from PC gamer says, Oblivion is the first immersive sim in TES.
But seriously now, Fallout 3 can be a highly immersive rpg with mods.

 

[Infinitron]

The best definition of "immersive sim" is that immersive sim isn't a genre. It's something narrower and more specific than that - a deliberate "stylistic lineage" with its roots in Looking Glass Studios games from the 1990s.

Dec 9, 2018 at 3:40 PM - @Infinitron: But I agree that it's really more of a kind of house style than a genre
Dec 9, 2018 at 3:41 PM - @Infinitron: It seems weird to call something like, say, Hitman an immersive sim even though it fits in a lot of ways
Dec 9, 2018 at 3:43 PM - @Infinitron: It's a kind of stylistic lineage. Like in movies, there's a recognizable lineage of Coen Brothers movies and various movies by other creators that are clearly influenced
Dec 9, 2018 at 3:43 PM - @Infinitron: But you wouldn't call "Coen-like" a genre, the genre is "dark comedy" or whatever
Dec 9, 2018 at 3:45 PM - @Infinitron: Best actual genre description: "Action-games where you can look around and fiddle with stuff"

 

[Zer0wing]

Yes and as Rick Lame from PC gamer says, Oblivion is the first immersive sim in TES.

He lives up to his last name, that's for sure.

 

[Wesp5]

Yes and as Rick Lame from PC gamer says, Oblivion is the first immersive sim in TES.

So is it important for an immersive sim to be able to pick up or manipulate every item? Even the 95% you don't need for the actual gameplay? Because this is what I remember the most from the Bethesda games...

 

[user]

So is it important for an immersive sim to be able to pick up or manipulate every item? Even the 95% you don't need for the actual gameplay? Because this is what I remember the most from the Bethesda games...

Surely helps a bit. Wouldn't say it's that important though, because these items, as you say, do not play an important role in the player's experience. Would say that the spell making they removed in Skyrim was far more important for example, considering TES' lore.

 

[vortex]

I wonder why people ask for WtM game made by Arkane.

Because immershun.

 

[ga♥]

Anyway so far it is the best news of the "current year".
Probably also will be the major disappointment....but let's enjoy the moment ok?

 

[Space Nugget]

Anyway so far it is the best news of the "current year".
Probably also will be the major disappointment....but let's enjoy the moment ok?

Sorry, that honor goes to OtherSide Entertainment having to refund System Shock 3 development costs half-way through it.

 

[jungl]

To think if white wolf was like games workshop with warhammer and let anyone develop games using vampire brand. We coud have WoD stardew valley, animal crossing, my time in portia vampire by now. You a lonely sabbat vampire living in a fort with brain dead ghouls surrounded by miles of swamp filled with snakes and giant flesh crafted ones. You get a letter from your to aunt that your dad met his final end and to come to his small town and inherit his workshop. Compete with other vamps in town and befriend the locals.

 

[Space Nugget]

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...ad-games-of-vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines

The head games of Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
Why I Love: Jakub Kasztalski explains why Troika Games' undead immersive sim never gets old

I won't lie - the only reason my 16-year-old self picked up Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines was because of the box. I was rummaging through the gaming section of Bookmans, a "used everything" store in Tucson, Arizona (quite a novelty to a fresh Polish transplant like me). I don't know what it was really - the tantalizing dark blue, the seductive Jeanette and shadowy figure, the golden embossed logo, the heaviness of the box... Something called out to me. And I didn't even care for vampires.

Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, like the other Troika games, has often been described as diamond in the rough. Leveraging an under-developed (at the time) Source engine and suffering numerous management issues, the released game was clunky to play, featured game-breaking bugs, and had several clearly unfinished levels. But like other Troika games, it had so much depth, relatable characters, and complex mechanics to build a dedicated fan following and earn a "Very Positive" rating on its modernized Steam version.

None of which are reasons I am writing this article.

For me, Vampire: The Masquerade did something no other game has managed to do. Something that only a truly immersive and interactive medium could ever pull off.

Every Good Story Has Humble Beginnings
When I got home, I installed the game and the obligatory 1.2 patch - something you had to do manually in those days by going to GameSpy.com, downloading the four-part archive on your dial-up, and hoping nothing got corrupted in the process. The game starts with a short quiz that suggests the right vampire clan for you. Knowing absolutely nothing about the Masquerade series, I settled on the sexy and skirt-wearing goth girl and went to town...

While I was pretty fluent in English at the time, it was my second language so I could easily excuse the sometimes awkward dialogue. I figured it was my fault, and if anything, I was learning new vocabulary, right? Then there were the occasional cryptic passages. "Okay, great," I thought. "Even as a vampire I'm a weirdo!"

Things only kept getting stranger. I heard odd whispers every now and then. "Must be some NPCs somewhere," I thought.

I talked to a stop sign. "Heh, an easter egg," I dismissed the occurrence.

Other characters spoke of me in strange terms at times - "They're all probably plotting against me!"

But it didn't matter. I had an infiltration mission to complete, on board the Elizabeth Dane ship no less! To my pure childish joy, many heinous vampiric crimes were committed that night.

In the Mouth of Madness

This city of angels sure has a lot of devils.

At that point, I needed a break from prowling the streets of virtual Los Angeles. I returned to the derelict apartment to check emails, talk to the roommate, and idly flipped on the TV.

The newscaster counted off recent events and odd incidents (which the game is no stranger to, as I realized by now). Then, he reported on a series of heinous vampiric crimes committed on board the Elizabeth Dane. I took a double take, but before I could process it, the reporter looked straight at me and said: "The police are investigating, and they know it was you."

"They know it was you."

Epiphany
It all suddenly clicked into place, everything - the odd phrasing, the strange noises, the comments, the things I saw that weren't there. I was schizophrenic. In the game, of course. But not as a simple character trait that modifies dice rolls. No. I was schizophrenic in the very fabric of the game rules and world.

As it turns out, I accidentally picked the Malkavian vampire clan without reading the fine print. They are clinically and prophetically insane, but to me, I was just playing a normal game about vampires. Everything seemed normal, just as the designers (the "gods" of the game) intended.

It wasn't the game telling me I was insane. It wasn't a doctor giving me a diagnosis. No. It was me, slowly, gradually, organically, coming to terms with my own insanity, and doubting everything I'd see and hear. It gave me a glimpse into a whole different reality and way of being. The experience was nothing like the typical escapism or power-fantasy I've experienced in other games.

How it Influenced Me
In real life, I struggle with depression, anxiety and impostor syndrome (something being an indie dev certainly doesn't help with. Ha!) Luckily, I have never had any psychotic episodes or hallucinations. I don't really know what it's like to be schizophrenic, and I don't mean to make light of the illness. But for a little bit, I think I got a glimpse into it.

A book can tell you what it's like to live a certain way. A movie can show you what it's like to live a certain way. A poem can make you empathize with living a certain way. But a game - a game can actually make you "be" that way, even if for just a little bit.

It's something only an immersive and interactive medium could ever do so well. It's something that I have been trying to replicate in my own games - not specifically with mental illness, but the idea of seducing players into succumbing to their own personal biases, only to shake them into organically re-thinking their viewpoints.

If this article intrigued you enough to check out Vampire: The Masquerade out, make sure you grab the Unofficial Fan Patch. It comes in two flavors, one merely fixing the innumerable bugs, and the other re-balancing and restoring a lot of lost content. If immersive sims are your jam, you won't be disappointed.

Oh, and if you do meet the Stop sign - tell it I said 'Hello.'

 

[Wesp5]

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...ad-games-of-vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines

Nice reading! While I didn't experience this myself, I played a Toreador when I didn't know anything of the WoD, Jeanette and Therese were a similar revelation to me.

 

[Roguey]

Yes, most immersive sims I know have automatic vending machines where you can sell or buy or recycle anything you find to get anything you want. Completely realistic !

It's not about realism, it's about systems that support verisimilitude. "I can't pick up a second knife, not because I'm out of extremely-generous-by-realistic-standards inventory space, but because the game doesn't want me to have a second knife" breaks the "I'm in a real place" feeling in favor of ~game balance~.

And you really believe you could do anything in Deus Ex, or Prey, or other games that the designers didn't implement? Like all these vent in all the places you needed them...

The go-to example is how you can jump on grenades and climb walls that way. They didn't intend grenades to be used that way, but you can.

 

[Jenkem]

X-Com would qualify as an "immersive sim." It's a nonsense term. The very concept of "immersive" is totally subjective. Someone could feel immersed in playing Mario 64. And what if someone speed runs a game and finds all sorts of ways to get through a level that were not intended by the developer, does that constitute emergent gameplay, even if the game was not built with the intention of providing large amounts of emergent gameplay?

"Immersive sim" is a nonsense term.

The Legend of Zelda would qualify as an "RPG." It's a nonsense term. The very concept of "role playing" is totally subjective. Someone could feel they are playing the role of Mario in Mario 64. And what if someone speed runs a game and finds all sorts of ways to get through a level that were not intended by the developer, does that constitute role playing, even if the game was not built with the intention of providing large amounts of choice and consequences?

 

[Viata]

The go-to example is how you can jump on grenades and climb walls that way. They didn't intend grenades to be used that way, but you can.

Quake 1 with Rocket Launcher is the best immersive sim, it seems.

 

[Roguey]

Quake 1 with Rocket Launcher is the best immersive sim, it seems.

It's a complete set of design principles, not just a few.