Van Buren/ Fallout 3: What made the cut?

[inwoker]

In what way Sawyer ideas was ridiculous? To me they were good stuff.
When I got rifle I didn't use pistol in fallout 1 and 2. He tried to fix this by making every weopon type had it's pros and cons.

 

[Ausir]

I don't have a problem with the space station either. It was all very 50s-style.

 

[Rhett Butler]

Yeah. Some of the stuff proposed was really ridiculous, probably FO3 ridiculous. It is best to leave it dead and to romanticize its memory like we have been doing.

Okay.

 

[Hümmelgümpf]

Van Buren certainly looked more Fallout-ish than FO2 with its pop culture references gone wild.

 

[Kingston]

I doubt Van Buren would have been any better than Bethesda's Fallout 3. The changes to SPECIAL that JE Sawyer was talking about were fairly ridiculous(like fixing the "problem" with pistols being useless when pistols are actually extremely deadly with the One-Hander Trait), the space stations, and so on. There was enough leaked about Van Buren to make me cringe.

I wasn't that fond of the SPECIAL changes either, but weren't there supposed to be new dialogue skills? Deception and something?

Space Station sounds fine to me. Its slightly ridiculous, but I don't really mind that much, it still fits the setting. The main storyline in Van Buren sounded much better to me than FO3's. The dialogue and quest quality would've been better methinks. There'd still be TB combat (I don't know how much the RT combat would've ended up affecting TB (Arcanum syndrome)). It would've been a Fallout game, or at least much closer to one than what we got now.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

Ten years from now english will be worse than Zero Wing. And I'm totally going to contribute to it!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

When I got rifle I didn't use pistol in fallout 1 and 2. He tried to fix this by making every weopon type had it's pros and cons.

Try the One-Hander trait some time. With a decent Perception, One-Hander and a Small Arms around 100% or so, I was shooting people's eyes out with a pistol from across the map. Pistols were pretty damned uber in Fallout if you take that trait.

Even without One-Hander, there were huge debates about what Small Arms weapon was the best in Fallout 2 - the gauss rifle or the pistol. It basically boils down to how many AP you have as to which one is the better weapon.

The argument that pistols were useless in Fallout and Fallout 2 is a null argument. Pistols were more than fine if you built your character for them.

Space Station sounds fine to me. Its slightly ridiculous, but I don't really mind that much, it still fits the setting.

A space station armed with nuclear missiles in a setting where they used bombers to carpet nuke the planet? Yeah, that fits the setting!

 

[DarkSign]

As usual... I posed this comparison in two different FO3 threads and got no response...and of course someone else (whether they saw my post or not) re-does it and people answer....@#$@#$#@

For those saying that FO3 is really close to Van Buren...you're not looking at the quests very much are you? The VB design docs (and I'm not romanticising) are the perfect ABCs of quest design that have multiple ways of completing them based on stats and gameplay styles...unlike what we got from BethSoft for the large part.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Design docs and the actual game are two different things. In Fallout's design docs, you were supposed to be able to become a Supermutant and attack Vault 13 for example. In the game, it's "You get dipped! The end!"

 

[Drakron]

Only bombers?

No, there were ICBMs ... missile delivery systems started well back in WW II, in fact Nazi Germany was working on a ICBM rocket that could hit New York , the A9/A10 rocket.

After WWII there was the R-7 Semyorka in the Soviet Union (a variation of it was the one used for the Sputnik) and the SM-65 Atlas in the USA (also adapted for the Space Program).

In 1960's ICBM deployment was a reality, in fact the LGM-30 Minuteman that is still the main ICBM in service in the USA started to enter service in 1962.

Of course in Fallout it seems they used mix tactics with ICBMs being used along with tactical bombers but then again, that doctrine still stands today (ICBMs are for high profile targets as bombers are assigned to lesser critical targets).

Saying there is no rocket technology in a "the future viewed from the 1950's" is absurd, ever since the V2 the idea of using then have been present in people imagination, Flash Gordon had a rocket ship and the strip started in 1934!

 

[DarkSign]

Design docs and the actual game are two different things. In Fallout's design docs, you were supposed to be able to become a Supermutant and attack Vault 13 for example. In the game, it's "You get dipped! The end!"

Fair enough, but you'd think that if Beth had learned the right APPROACH for writing quests what we got would have been TONS better. I'm sure you've at least scanned them, right? They parse out actionboy, steathboy, etc. etc. and how each can be really really different ways of playing the game...not just superficial munchkinism.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but VanBuren never got released did it? There's a few vids and a tech demo laying around but design docs are the majority of what people have to refer to when they talk about it.

Bottom line "Fallout Quest Design" with Professor VanBuren was a class that Beth had the chance to take, but instead decided to take "Marketing 101" offered by TA Pete Hines.

 

[Ausir]

A space station armed with nuclear missiles in a setting where they used bombers to carpet nuke the planet? Yeah, that fits the setting!

Find me a canon proof that only bombers were used. And didn't you praise Beth's Fallout 3 for its adherence to the lore? It certainly has ICBMs and working space stations (which you can't visit, though) as well. I believe Tim Cain once said something along the lines of "uhh I dunno, I'd say planes" and it's been held as canon by many people, but that's really the word of one of the developers against evidence inside to the contrary the game itself. Also, I doubt that "total nuclear annihilation" can be achieved in a mere "two hours" with just planes. I'd say that both were used.

Some examples of "missiles" and "warheads" being mentioned in FO1 and FO2:

From CHUCK.MSG (FO1):

{124}{}{[Chuck pulls out a card with a picture of a man dancing on a nuclear warhead.] The Fool. I cannot help you; you must make your own way in the world.}

From GLO1WEAP.MSG (FO1):

{100}{}{These doors have been blasted by the nuclear warhead.}

From OBJ_DUDE.MSG (FO1):

{22706}{}{There are some stories which say there is a place to the southeast of here which got hit by a nuclear warhead.}

From Fcdrfung.msg (FO2):

{182}{}{Our people landed here on the submarine Shih-huang-ti, when the missiles exploded over the world. With the aid of a cult, we, the Shi, rebuilt San Francisco. That is the short version.}

(...)

{186}{}{The long version is this: We are here because our people are the descendants of the crew of a nuclear submarine, called the Shih-huang-ti. When the missiles fell in the Great Deluge, the systems aboard the submarine failed and we drifted in the dark for many days.}

From FO2 intro:

Spears of nuclear fire rained from the skies.

And, while it's not entirely canon anymore (since it's been changed during the game's development), this is a quote from the original "Vault 13: A GURPS Post-Nuclear Adventure" timeline:

# It is not known which country pressed the button first. On October 23, 2077, dozens of 20 kiloton warheads are on their way to their US targets.
# The Shelter Drill sirens begin to wail. Many US citizens ignore the warning believing it to be just another false alarm. The few that heed, are sealed within their sheltering vaults.
# The Americans, unable to stop all the incoming missiles with satellite defenses, launch a counterstrike at the offending country. Other countries, seeing the US's missiles on their way, fire their warheads as well. What ensues is two hours of nuclear bombardment upon the earth's surface.

Tim Cain and Leon Boyarsky seem to favor bombs, while Scott Campbell and Chris Taylor seem to favor missiles, just like Cain and Boyarsky favor radiation as the source of animal and ghoul mutation, while Campbell and Taylor favor FEV.

As for Sawyer's changes to SPECIAL, some of them were good, some were bad. I didn't like the consolidation of combat skills, but I did like the division of Speech into Persuasion and Deception, as well as him tying the perk requirements only to skills and stats instead of levels.

 

[NiM82]

Warhead just means the explosive end of a bomb, missile or rocket.

 

[Ausir]

Missiles and rockets yet, but I wouldn't say that about bombs dropped from planes. And missiles were mentioned in the very earliest design documents.

FO1 itself might be ambiguous about it (which allows both Tim Cain and Chris Taylor to interpret it in their own way), but all subsequent Fallout games (FO2, FO3, FOT and Van Buren) clearly state that nuclear missiles were used.

 

[Tagaziel]

In a certain way, Ausir scares me... but in another, he's mind-blowingly awesome.

On the topic of VB/Fo3... there's absolutely no discussion here, Van Buren was, is and will be a better game than the released Fo3. I'd gladly play it rather than the drivel Fo3 is.

Much of Van Buren was laid out by Chris Avellone in actual RPG sessions. It had a much more coherent design than Fo2 and, well, there was no New Reno in the game.

 

[Ausir]

It had a much more coherent design than Fo2 and, well, there was no New Reno in the game.

It could do with fewer tribals, though. That's one of my few beefs with VB.

 

[Tagaziel]

Tribals never hit me as bad as New Reno.

Which, while awesome in itself, always stuck out like a sore-I-should-not-be-here-at-all thumb.

 

[Ausir]

Well, and the tribals were handled better than Arroyo in FO2 - their tribalness was better justified and they made more sense overall. Still, I think there were a bit too many tribes there.

 

[Tagaziel]

You just don't like loincloths, do you?

 

[Drakron]

Arroyo was just dumb with the Temple of Trials and the fact it was founded by less that 100 years about by VAULT DWELLERS AND WASTELANDERS.

Yes, taking the time to construct a massive temple for the sole purpose of storing a Vault Tek Jumpsuit but NOT of BUILDING HOUSES TO LIVE IN.

 

[Ausir]

Actually, the Vault Dweller memoirs from the FO2 manual (written by Chris Taylor, lead designer of FO1), reference the people of Arroyo actually constructing houses, not living in tents. I wouldn't be surprised if it were written before the game was actually made.

 

[Silellak]

Arroyo was just dumb with the Temple of Trials and the fact it was founded by less that 100 years about by VAULT DWELLERS AND WASTELANDERS.

Yes, taking the time to construct a massive temple for the sole purpose of storing a Vault Tek Jumpsuit but NOT of BUILDING HOUSES TO LIVE IN.

While I hate the Temple of Trials with a passion, in its defense, I got the impression it was meant to have been built beforehand - probably as a museum - and "converted" into the Temple of Trials.

The Fallout Wiki supports this:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Temple_of_Trials

 

[Ausir]

Yeah, but that was just Avellone's retcon to make some sense out of it.

 

[Silellak]

Yeah, but that was just Avellone's retcon to make some sense out of it.

Ah, fair enough. On reflection, it doesn't look particularly pre-warish.

 

[DarkSign]

Design docs and the actual game are two different things. In Fallout's design docs, you were supposed to be able to become a Supermutant and attack Vault 13 for example. In the game, it's "You get dipped! The end!"

Fair enough, but you'd think that if Beth had learned the right APPROACH for writing quests what we got would have been TONS better. I'm sure you've at least scanned them, right? They parse out actionboy, steathboy, etc. etc. and how each can be really really different ways of playing the game...not just superficial munchkinism.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but VanBuren never got released did it? There's a few vids and a tech demo laying around but design docs are the majority of what people have to refer to when they talk about it.

Bottom line "Fallout Quest Design" with Professor VanBuren was a class that Beth had the chance to take, but instead decided to take "Marketing 101" offered by TA Pete Hines.

QFT.