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Vault Dweller's Theoretical Introduction to the cRPG genre, with Examples Aplenty

Shagnak

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Not entirely certain. I imagine only the earliest ones, and FFX.
And FFT if you want to count that.

Edit:
There is a middle period where they used that weird hybrid. They called it Active Time Battle (just looked it up). They even patented it.
And that's all about FF for me for now, because it's making me feel odd.
 

RK47

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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
ultima 4? nothing really happens till the char makes a move.
 
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
If I remember correctly, quite a few FF's have an option that allows you to select turn based or RTwP. But I'm sure that it only amounts to pausing everyone else's, including monster's, Active Time while the player chooses the current characters action at leisure. Once the menu option is selected then everyone's Active Time indicator continues until the next character's indicator is full.
 

Rhett Butler

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Shagnak said:
Also, though I am aware almost all examples do, adventure games do not have to "progress from point A to point B to point C in a very specific, set in stone way". Fahrenheit is an example of an attempt to do otherwise (are there any others?).

Star Control 2.
 

Jasede

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SC2 has not a single RPG element...

But why do I even bother, huh? Why bother? For you Deus Ex and System Shock are RPGs too, after all. And Halo. God I hate you.
 

inwoker

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1eyedking said:
Now you're kidding, have you even played it? Analyzed it's gameplay? It's a game filled with brilliant design; it single-handedly revolutionized the genre.

What's brilliant about it's design?

What really cstrike did well is that it turned(because of it's popularity) most future shooters into some pseudo-realistic games, that sacrificed lot of actual gameplay for sake of said realism.
 

Hory

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Jasede said:
SC2 has not a single RPG element...
LAFFO, not one? You agree that Deus Ex and System Shock have some elements, but SC2 has none?
But why do I even bother, huh? Why bother?
Maybe you're an idealist who believes that truth and knowledge must come to light for everyone? No, it's not that, it's just that you like repeatedly exposing your biased view.
For you Deus Ex and System Shock are RPGs too, after all.
Oh really, and how would you know that?
Their primary activity is action, and I see them as action games primarily. On the other hand, SC2 has multiple primary activities which are similar to the ones in RPGs (exploration, diplomacy, quests, trading, self-improvement etc.)
And Halo. God I hate you.
:cry:
 

1eyedking

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inwoker said:
What's brilliant about it's design?
Let me enlighten you, grasshoper. Counter-Strike is cool because...

...it has a strong emphasis on wallshooting, a fucking awesome and fun FPS feature if you learn how to explot it.

...of motherfucking headshots. This is a game that provides some serious gory satisfaction.

...there is a defined recoil. In fact, you can actually control it if you crouch and spray.

...it's got a kickass money system. It rewards good skills, and allows for a myriad of strategies (Ecos, Decos, MP5 Rushes, AWP camping, etc.)

...it's realistic. You can't bunny jump like crazy, nor rocket around.

...of flashbangs and smokescreens. They add a lot to the tactical and strategical depth of the game.

...it rewards teamplay. You're not a one-man-army (unless you're HeaToN, Potti, SpawN, or one of the other gods).

...planting & defusing (inside a 3-minute window) is a very nice multiplayer mode, making the game more static and less of a jump-around-fest.

...noise plays a very important role. Footsteps, reloading weapons, jumping, tossing grenades, picking weapons up and other actions can give away your position (which combined with wallshooting/flashbangs/rushes can prove disastrous).

...you actually have to lay down a plan of action, and think it out. A single lost round can mean -$3000 and set you really behind. When to go for ecos, decos, when to camp, what weapons to buy, etc; it all detracts from your cash pool. Feigning rushes, making a split gamble, and many other possible strategies keep every round different.

I could go on and on, talking about how the map design is genius (despite a couple of glitches and exploits), how movement is fluid, perfect...almost like a dance, how fun it is to watch replays and analyze another team's strategies. How well fleshed out the weapon vs. armor system is. How incredibly different every gun is. How fun it is to fool around (building human totems, whore-camping until the last minute, getting knife kills, getting into normally inaccessible places), how satisfying to mow down a whole squad is. Even then, I wouldn't be digressing: Counter-Strike simply has too much to offer.
 

Gnidrologist

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Jasede said:
For you Deus Ex and System Shock are RPGs too, after all.
And why not actually? They have:
1. stats
2. good story to immerse in
3. various methods to approach the goals
4. inventory management.
What else do you need? Choices and consequences? Ritch dialogue trees? R00fles.
 

Jasede

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No, go the fuck away. If you think Deus Ex is an RPG you're retarded.

From now on I will no longer debate such apparent truths, and instead just call you dumb and hit you with a stick. Like in olden days of yore.
 

Gnidrologist

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In fact, i don't see Deus Ex or SS2 as rpgs. But for a person, who thinks Wizardries are an epitome of role playing, you should.
 

Hory

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Would you be happier if Wizardry furries did everything they already do, except for talking?
 

Andyman Messiah

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No, go the fuck away. If you think Deus Ex is an RPG you're retarded.
Well, not to fight someone else's battles but I guess I'm just drooling a lot then because Deus Ex is an RPG. You got stats, choices and stuff to take down or avoid as you see fit. Why is it not an RPG? FACE ME, YOU STICKWIELDING MANIAC, YOU!!!

The article by Vault Dweller is a great read, btw. It's funny, interesting and easy on the eyes. Quality. It makes me wonder though, when the heck is VD finally returning to the Codex? Was his exile permanent or something? And if it was, why didn't he get Bloody Mess?
 

Jasede

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Locue said:
No, go the fuck away. If you think Deus Ex is an RPG you're retarded.
Well, not to fight someone else's battles but I guess I'm just drooling a lot then because Deus Ex is an RPG. You got stats, choices and stuff to take down or avoid as you see fit. Why is it not an RPG? FACE ME, YOU STICKWIELDING MANIAC, YOU!!!

The article by Vault Dweller is a great read, btw. It's funny, interesting and easy on the eyes. Quality. It makes me wonder though, when the heck is VD finally returning to the Codex? Was his exile permanent or something? And if it was, why didn't he get Bloody Mess?

Because in an RPG you do not run around and shoot or sneak past people in FPS twitch-based manner, even if skill-assisted. You do nothing in Deus Ex you do in traditional RPGs: you do not get quests, there's no dungeons, there's no party...

Look, I can't rationally explain it. It's just like this. Just how it's a certain truth that the earth orbits the sun, so is Deus Ex not an RPG. That's just how things are. I lack the debating and explaining skills to explain why, but it's true. Seriously. Deus Ex does not offer RPG gameplay, and neither does Star Control, or System Shock. They wear some parts of RPG-hood, but you do not call a woman a ferret just because she wears a cloak made of ferret-fur.


How to explain it better?

Look, this is how I see it: does Deus Ex/etc play like a Dungeon Crawler? No. Does it play like Fallout? No. Does it play like, god forbid, a jRPG? No. Hence, it can't be an RPG - it does not PLAY like one. You do not do RPG stuff! This game has some trapping of an RPG, but it is not one at the core.
 

Andyman Messiah

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Jasede said:
Because in an RPG you do not run around and shoot or sneak past people in FPS twitch-based manner, even if skill-assisted. You do nothing in Deus Ex you do in traditional RPGs: you do not get quests
I'm sure Manderley gave me a few, actually. Kill that guy, get that object, etc. etc. And then there was this chick in a bar who wanted me to check on her friend. Those aren't quests to you? They certainly are to me. Quests are just objectives, really. You do them and you get the reward. Or lightside points.

I will say, however, that it's not a very good RPG as far as these quests go. You never, or rarely but I haven't played the game in a while, get more than one way to handle a quest. You can choose between different ways to get to the objective but in the end you really have to do that UNATCO-job of yours until the story makes you run away. In that way, I agree. But still, they're quests.

And yeah, spoilers whatever.

there's no dungeons
I didn't remember many dungeons in Fallout either. I mean, you had a few caves but the rest was mostly towns and military complexes and open spaces.

there's no party...
Oh come on, Jasede. The lack of party members really help shoot it down from RPG heavan? :)

Look, I can't rationally explain it. It's just like this. Just how it's a certain truth that the earth orbits the sun, so is Deus Ex not an RPG. That's just how things are. I lack the debating and explaining skills to explain why, but it's true. Seriously. Deus Ex does not offer RPG gameplay, and neither does Star Control, or System Shock. They wear some parts of RPG-hood, but you do not call a woman a ferret just because she wears a cloak made of ferret-fur.
Well, yeah, it's not a pure RPG. It's a, I dunno, FPS-RPG or some other stupid acronym combination, but it certainly has some roleplaying mechanics behind its shooter front that allows you to play the game in the way you want to (until right at the end when all hell breaks loose and you tend to have to pull out your rifles).

Ah, we'll just agree to disagree.
 

almondblight

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Gnidrologist said:
What else do you need? Choices and consequences? Ritch dialogue trees? R00fles.

They have pretty good choices and consequences and good dialogue trees. Yeah.

Better than Fallout if I remember right, but I didn't finish Deus Ex, and probaly won't for at least some years.
 

Jasede

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Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. Better than Fallout.

I'll go stand over there.
 

Gnidrologist

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Conclusion: Deus Ex - and ultimate rpg.

It has lots of quests, that can be handled in different fashion (shoot, sneak, hack etc.).

Ther are multiple well crafted dungeons (Paris Catacombs, area 51, Ocean Lab).

The back story (lore) and plot is regarded by many to be one of the best in computer games, a clear sign of an rpg.

Character system is simplistic, but it works well for what it is. You could argue that it is dumbed down in comparison to dungeon crawlers, but then again, it's quite on par with average console rpg (and console rpgs ARE rpgs), no?

As mentioned abowe, there are choices and consequences (decide to believe/not believe Paul, decide what if doctor guy says at UNATCO or joins rebelion, kill/spare the phony mechanic guy, who plants bomb on black chopper etc).
Whether those c&c may even be better than in Fallout is irrelevant, however, because, as we all know, c&c is not a vital aspect of a crpg.

Lack of party? Yeah. I give you that. Also, there are no elves. A major flaw. If not this, DX would be bestest and truest rpg in existance.
 

Vault Dweller

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Jasede said:
Because in an RPG you do not run around and shoot or sneak past people in FPS twitch-based manner, even if skill-assisted. ... there's no dungeons, there's no party...
What do you think about Bloodlines? Gothic? I mean, if Gothic is an RPG, Deus Ex is definitely one too.

From a walkthrough:

"If you want the key to the statue then be careful what you say here. Harley gives you a photo of the NSF leader and asks that his "friend" be taken alive. If you don't give him adequate assurance then he won't give you the key and you will be forced to use the alternate entrance."

"Enter and talk to Lebedev. Anna shows up and demands that you kill him as per your orders. You must now decide if you are going to join your brother and the NSF or go along with UNATCO. Anna will kill Juan if you don't, and you have the option to kill Anna..."

Not many RPGs offer the same level of depth as the above scenario.

"Talk to Paul for a minute before Majestic agents start pounding on the door. Paul tells you to escape through the window. You can do that or you can stay and fight the agents. Kill all the agents that storm the room and any down in the lobby if you want to help Paul escape. If you do flee through the window Paul will die..."

"Return to the helipad and kill the unsuspecting spy with your weapon of choice; I chose a shotgun to the back of the head. Then talk to Jock who will inspect the chopper and disarm the bomb the spy planted in the fuel system. If you fail to kill the mechanic and take off anyway, Jock will die later on in the story."

So, we have skills, skill-based gameplay, dialogue options, multiple solutions, choices, consequences, inventory, detailed upgrade system (add silencer, scope, increase range, capacity, accuracy, decrease reload time and recoil), augmentation system with mutually exclusive choices, but for some arbitrary reasons the game isn't an RPG?

Why?
 

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