Vault Dweller's Theoretical Introduction to the cRPG genre, with Examples Aplenty

[Jasede]

I... already said I can't explain it well. I am sure there's people who agree with me and are better at explaining it. But look, Gothic and Deus Ex - they play completely differently. You don't do RPG stuff in Deus Ex.

In Gothic you go on adventures, explore places, and, this is important, don't spend most of the game shooting guns while using FPS skills. [Or sneak, using Thief skills].

Your multiple solutions are just different paths through the level with some fluff pseudo RPG options like "give chocolate to boy for code", which you could just ignore and use 1 multitool instead. None of your actions in Deus Ex has any sort of consequence except for the choice at the end, and some minor changes if you save Paul, and some tiny dialogue changes when you kill Anna early or not.

The dialogue options aren't RPGy... look...

I am not making much sense. Can't you -feel- it isn't an RPG? It bothers me that people call Deus Ex an RPG just because it feels wrong. I can't explain it better. I am sure there's some certain arguments that would prove that Deus Ex is an FPS with RPG-elements and nothing more but I am not clever enough to find them, I am sorry.

But I can't accept Deus Ex being an RPG, simply because it isn't one. You don't RPG in the game, you FPS. There's RPG elements to keep it interesting but most of the stuff is spent FPSing. Deus Ex plays very differently from Bloodlines - to me. It plays nothing like an RPG - instead, it plays like an FPS with RPG-elements and some choices and many paths through the level (not that many, usually).


---

See, I don't see why you can say that if Gothic is an RPG, Deus Ex is one too. Gothic has all the traditional RPG things and you spend most of the time RPGing: talking to people, having adventures, earning money, doing quests, filling up your journal, getting stronger to beat the tougher mobs. In Deus Ex, you can't even go back to visited locations! In Deus Ex you don't have an... an RPG experience!


Look, I really can't explain it better, and my ramblings are hardly going to convince anyone. I just know that Deus Ex is not an RPG and that is that. I'd rather get a dumbfuck tag than call it one because it would go against my very nature to call a rose a tumbleweed.


I wish I could explain it! It's just that I know in my gut that Deus Ex is not an RPG. I know it like I know black and white.


Fake edit: not that any of this should better. It's a good game, no matter the genre, and it's okay that people have different definitions for the same thing, and it's my fault for bringing it up in the first place, I guess. I just feel bad when people call something that so strongly - to me - is not an RPG an RPG. It feels so wrong. Like heterosexual intercourse. Eww.

true edit: I think I am getting a bit close:

For me, an RPG is any dungeon crawler, but not Diablo or Stonekeep. Wizardry, Might and Magic, you know? Other RPG styles, for me, are deviations - but they still share gameplay elements of dungeon crawlers, so I can appreciate them: action RPGs, jRPGs, Fallout-likes [I like to call them fag-RPGs because they're so LARPy]. I even love them, especially Arcanum. But they're just a corruption, or rather, an evolution of the old, classical RPG I grew up with - the Dungeon Crawler.

The point is now: While these "new" RPG styles have things in common with the dungeon crawlers, and play like them - with some leniency - Deus Ex does not. It has nothing that reminds me of those Dungeon Crawlers, nothing at all. The stat system is shallow, the "dungeons" are trite, there's no random encounters and you can't revisit areas. You don't need to map, there's no party, no magic, no elves and whatever, no ancient evil, nothing "traditional". That's why it's no RPG to me.

More edit: ^ That and the fact it plays like an FPS with some RPG elements thrown in.

 

[Gnidrologist]

So. It's because of no elves.
Ok ok, i understand where you're coming from. It's just he way you make your points. It's obnoxious. You feel nostalgic about your old games you played to death, when you were a kind and now they are only true and rightous examples of the genre.
I have something like that with BIS/Troika games.

 

[Jasede]

You feel nostalgic about your old games you played to death, when you were a kind and now they are only true and rightous examples of the genre.

Yes! Exactly! Finally someone understand me.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

So, we have skills, skill-based gameplay, dialogue options, multiple solutions, choices, consequences, inventory, detailed upgrade system (add silencer, scope, increase range, capacity, accuracy, decrease reload time and recoil), augmentation system with mutually exclusive choices, but for some arbitrary reasons the game isn't an RPG?

Why?

... because it's predominantly an FPS. In the same way "True Lies" is an action film rather than a deep drama about a man's relationship with his family. It also lacks a higher level of disassociation between player skill vs character skill (with regard to combat). At best, it's an "Action RPG", not a "Real RPG".

 

[Andyman Messiah]

So, we have skills, skill-based gameplay, dialogue options, multiple solutions, choices, consequences, inventory, detailed upgrade system (add silencer, scope, increase range, capacity, accuracy, decrease reload time and recoil), augmentation system with mutually exclusive choices, but for some arbitrary reasons the game isn't an RPG?

Why?

... because it's predominantly an FPS. In the same way "True Lies" is an action film rather than a deep drama about a man's relationship with his family. It also lacks a higher level of disassociation between player skill vs character skill (with regard to combat). At best, it's an "Action RPG", not a "Real RPG".

... but still an RPG.

 

[Amasius]

Why?

Because it wasn't marketed as one. That's the only reason I can think of. And I don't agree with DU that it is predominantly a FPS. Sure - you can play it that way and most people probably do but you can also play it as a stealth game and avoid combat a much as possible. The game offers different approaches and thats a reason why it is a classic. Jagged Aliance 2 also has everything a good RPG needs but the turnbased combat is just too good to call it one...

 

[Jasede]

But a stealth game is no RPG. Thief is no RPG. And a game where you can choose between stealth and FPS is still not n RPG, it's a stealth/FPS hybrid (with RPG elements in ths case).

I only played Deus Ex once though, on Realistic, kiling three people total. And it was -still- not an RPG.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

... but still an RPG.

I couldn't put it in that box alone though which is what I think Jasede is saying. As in, Fallout is an RPG. It's not anything else other than an RPG. There's no question as to its RPG qualities. It's not an FPS or anything else. It's only an RPG. Dues Ex I couldn't say the same thing about. I'd be ticking the FPS box as well (be that for First Person Shooter or First Person Sneaker). The same way "True Lies" is an Action / Comedy rather than just being "Action" or just being "Comedy"¹. Take either element away from it and it's missing what the product is. Take the FPS or RPG elements out of Deus Ex and it's not quite the same game. It needs both. It's a Hybrid. Not quite one. Not quite the other. It's got a mixture of both. So it's not "an" RPG, the same way it's not necessarily "an" FPS. Hence the "Action RPG" tag we give games these days to denote those things which aren't "Real RPGs" but have several elements of them.

¹Guess what DVD I watched the other day?

 

[Amasius]

But a stealth game is no RPG. Thief is no RPG. And a game where you can choose between stealth and FPS is still not n RPG, it's a stealth/FPS hybrid (with RPG elements in ths case).

I only played Deus Ex once though, on Realistic, kiling three people total. And it was -still- not an RPG.

It's a hybrid, that right. But not a "stealth/FPS hybrid (with RPG elements)" but a stealth/FPS/RPG hybrid. The RPG aspects are to predominant to call them mere elements. (By the way - if you want to play a great stealthy RPG try the NWN module Honor Among Thieves. It offers as much C&C than Fallout. Oh wait, I forgot - you don't care much for C&C.)

 

[almondblight]

It also lacks a higher level of disassociation between player skill vs character skill (with regard to combat).

Oh, please. Please. Using your mind isn't player skill but using your thumbs is? Football takes skill but chess doesn't?

As for why I prefer the choices and dialogues in Deus Ex to many in Fallout:

1. Lack of "good choice" and 'bad choice", and lack of "this is you making a choice" moments. For instance, in the beginning you can please Paul by going easy on the NSF or please the other folks by taking a bunch out. You don't know that they'll treat you differently depending on how you play, there's not a be merciful/kill them all moment. It depends on how the player decides to go through the game. In Fallout I usually knew when there was a choice moment (and what the results would be and what the good choice was), and when I could do anything without consequence.

2. Dialogue. Less trees, but in Deus Ex when there's a choice there's more often an actual choice. I prefer that to 20 branches all leading to the same choice - illusion of choice.

Then again, this is just my preference (and I have yet to finish Deus Ex).

 

[Joe Krow]

There is a difference between passively selecting targets in an action rpg like Diablo and doing the actual targeting as in Dues Ex. In action rpgs you click on your enemies and then your avatar runs its animation to dispatch them (with the effect usually dictated by the characters stats). In Dues Ex the player gets the enemy in the cross hairs and pulls the trigger; the character is, at most, a modifier. Even in a fast paced real time game there is a difference between selecting the characters actions and performing them. The term "action" can be used to describe both but the context is not the same. In games like Gothic and Morrowind you are more or less clicking on enemies and watching how the character does. Is it the same in Dues Ex when you aim and fire? I don't think so.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

It also lacks a higher level of disassociation between player skill vs character skill (with regard to combat).

Oh, please. Please. Using your mind isn't player skill but using your thumbs is? Football takes skill but chess doesn't?

If all you did in chess was click on your enemy and your character decided what piece to move based on its Chess skill, then no, it wouldn't "take skill". It'd be the character's skill as opposed to the player's skill. There's always an aspect of "player skill" involved (which dialogue choice do I click on?) but there's a marked difference between deciding tactically in the heat of a battle which weapon to use, bunny hopping over a crate and letting loose on some bad guys ... and then having the reflexes of a 12 year old which enable you to pull that off vs "do I want to ask for the reward or not?" and figuring out whether your character's Persuasion skill will allow you to get a higher reward or just piss him off by asking (and by Bioware standards, make you evil as well).

 

[Crichton]

It's nice to see that this argument has come back around, I always enjoy it.

I couldn't put it in that box alone though which is what I think Jasede is saying. As in, Fallout is an RPG. It's not anything else other than an RPG. There's no question as to its RPG qualities. It's not an FPS or anything else. It's only an RPG. Dues Ex I couldn't say the same thing about.

RPG doesn't connote any type of gameplay. There are all different kinds of gameplay that can use different character types (stats) and the like.

Many RPGs are skirmish tactics games (some JRPGs like FFT, Tactics Ogre, Vandal Hearts et al, Most D&D games, RoA and the like).

Other RPGs focus on a single character as action games (Vampire: Bloodlines, Oblivion, The Witcher, Deus Ex, Gothic).

But what about single character, indirect control games? They have neither tactics nor action, but they're RPGs too. And in fact the best RPGs so far have been the ones to focus solely on content and ignore gameplay. (Fallout and Arcanum on the high end, KotOR a little further down, sliding down to NWN and Morrowind and hitting bottom around Diablo and MMOs)

This doesn't mean that everything that allows for character choice is automatically an RPG. I wouldn't but Blade of Darkness, Disciples 1+2 or Warcraft 3 in as rpgs, character choice be damned. But there's no sense in trying to weed them out based on gamplay because "role-playing" isn't a gameplay element.

Gameplay is about succeeding and failing, "role-playing" isn't about right/wrong options, a wizard isn't better or worse than a fighter, only different, putting a point into strength or a point into dexterity should both be valid options. Shooting at your target or 30 degrees to the right shouldn't both be valid Neither should putting your support troops out in front or keeping them in the rear. (of course in most games, "role-playing" still ends up being right/wrong, longsword/katana = right, other weapons = wrong)

 

[almondblight]

If all you did in chess was click on your enemy and your character decided what piece to move based on its Chess skill, then no, it wouldn't "take skill".

Yeah, the thing is, you don't simply click on your party and say "attack enemy" and wait utnil you see the results. That would be Dungeon Seige, and I didn't see anyone praise that for "wow, based on characters' skill!". If one can call combat challenging, deep, needing thought, or any of the things that are supposed to make TB combat "good", they all require player skill. Just as RT does. This should be obvious.

 

[Longshanks]

It also lacks a higher level of disassociation between player skill vs character skill (with regard to combat).

Oh, please. Please. Using your mind isn't player skill but using your thumbs is? Football takes skill but chess doesn't?

Yeah, but when you have stats for things like gun skill, having the player aim and affecting the outcome of a shot clearly reduces the stat's importance.

This is why actions for the character, decisions for the player is such a good divide. It's very easy to model stats for actions, and gives a strong role for both player and character.

Before you come up with the obvious riposte that the importance of Intelligence is reduced by the player's decision making, I'll add that there is some point to this (though not much). However, games like Deus Ex both allow for player decision making and affecting actions, so there is no question that character skill is less important. Such a game moves the division point to more favour player skill, without adding at all to character skill.

As for why I prefer the choices and dialogues in Deus Ex to many in Fallout:

1. Lack of "good choice" and 'bad choice", and lack of "this is you making a choice" moments. For instance, in the beginning you can please Paul by going easy on the NSF or please the other folks by taking a bunch out. You don't know that they'll treat you differently depending on how you play, there's not a be merciful/kill them all moment.

That's not how I remember Deus Ex. I remember the choices being mostly unimportant, yes your actions will affect how various characters feel about you, but they still give you missions, their is very little impact that I can remember. This always felt very artificial, "oh you killed one of our agents and you are scum, but could you do this for us?". I think this aspect was even worse in Deus Ex 2, and I may be getting them somewhat confused, but I'm certain their was a similar problem with the original.

2. Dialogue. Less trees, but in Deus Ex when there's a choice there's more often an actual choice. I prefer that to 20 branches all leading to the same choice - illusion of choice.

Again, the choices in Deus Ex (certainly those in dialogue) were pretty ordinary, certainly not of the level of Fallout. There is not a lot of dialogue in Deus Ex, and even less branching dialogue. Deus Ex copped out and gave you its only meaningful choices in the last minutes of the game, basically a "which ending do you want"? By contrast, Fallout's endings were decided upon on how you played throughout the game, talking town endings here. Fallout had more choices in quest completion, choice in main story progression (not a forced line of missions as in Deus Ex).

I see it as an FPS with RPG elements (weak character creation and stat strength), at most an FPS/ActionRPG, there is plenty of choice illusion and a much smaller amount of real choice, but not a lot of it affects the game in a meaningful way, people just get more pissed off at you, while doing little about it. The choices that are quite good, is being able to complete objectives in different ways, different entry points, sneaking or combat, many games (even FPSs) have this, but Deus Ex did it quite well.

 

[Aegeri]

Heh, that might be what I was referring to as "turn based with a time limit", an oversimplification as admittedly that has a real time element to it (bars filling up yadda yadda).

But as pointed out not every game in the series is like that.
The series covers the full gamut from pure TB to weird-arse hybrid, to normal RTwP.

I honestly don't know why they moved to RTwP when so many people seemed to really like the TB stuff in FFX.

Which were the games with true TB?

Final Fantasy III IIRC is turn based and I think the first two as well. I can't remember what IV-VI do. Final Fantasy X is true turn based. Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy Tactics A2 are also all genuinely turn based.

As to why they changed, it's probably because of their work with Kingdom Hearts and having more player involvement in the combat. Final Fantasy XII is not strictly real time, it actually still uses the same system FFVII does in the background, it just allows the player to move around the field during combat at will. It actually serves to make this way of doing combat a lot better than the more pseudo-turn based method of having everyone stand around constantly. I still prefer turn based combat systems though.

In terms of genuinely turn based jRPGs, there are a lot of these:

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Summoner (1 and 2)
Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne
Almost any Dragon Quest game (I fail to think of a standard Dragon Quest game that isn't turn based)
Disgaea and its sequel
Persona 3
etc

The problem with jRPGs is that they play more like linear adventure games than games like Fallout and have very limited options as to how you can customise your characters. I've played Fallout, Planescape Torment and Baldurs Gate 2 many times because of the different resolutions to quests, characters and party formations I can make. I've very rarely played any kind of jRPG more than once (except Dragon Quest VIII and Disgaea, but those are exceptions) because they offer very few choices in how to approach problems in the game. I personally don't really think of most jRPGs as true RPGs (or what VD calls Classic RPGs), but think of them more as adventure games with limited character development.

But I will say, I love jRPGs because they are one of the few places to find games with turn based combat systems being made regularly.

2. Dialogue. Less trees, but in Deus Ex when there's a choice there's more often an actual choice. I prefer that to 20 branches all leading to the same choice - illusion of choice.

This is not the case. For example, it doesn't matter in terms of if you can or cannot save Paul later in the game if you act like a completely homicidal jerk towards the NSF. You still end up being forced to assist them anyway and they don't appear to mind that you were completely evil towards them. In a similar manner, the game will recognise that you did different things like waste J. Manderly in his office, but there isn't actually any in game effect for this beyond a few different newspaper articles.

There are some exceptions to this in Deus Ex, but rarely through dialogue and mostly through player action (which is where I feel you're confused). If you ignore Paul and stand to fight with him, you can save him from being killed by the UNACTCO assault team. This does mean he still ends up alive further in the game, but in saying this, there really isn't any in game effect beyond this on the ending or anything else. In fact, the ending doesn't even have any reflection of what you did in the game. You simply choose based on how many resources you have (multi-tools etc) and that's about it really. Nothing you've done in the game is relevant anyway.

 

[almondblight]

Yeah, but when you have stats for things like gun skill, having the player aim and affecting the outcome of a shot clearly reduces the stat's importance.

And the importance of all stats is reduced by a players skill in strategy. Hence people finishing Exile scenarios with level 1 parties. Again, if combat is considered "hard" or "challenging" or "deep" - all supposed to be good adjectives - it denotes player skill, not character skill. Character skill only is Dungeon Seige, or getting a message - "you encountered a group of xxx, you fought and won" "you attack the evil king, and defeat him, game over". No one wants to play that. Having player skill is a GOOD thing ins an RPG. It's something everyone seems to love. But only if it's strategy skill and not twitch.


"I see it as an FPS with RPG elements (weak character creation and stat strength), at most an FPS/ActionRPG"

Have you ever played through it with no points put into any skills and no augmentations? Played through it like an FPS?

 

[almondblight]

This is not the case.

Sorry, I should have said I preferred the style where options presented more of a choice, not that more choices we represented. There were more in Fallout, but they were burried under branches that went around in circles.

 

[Joe Krow]

Yeah, but when you have stats for things like gun skill, having the player aim and affecting the outcome of a shot clearly reduces the stat's importance.

And the importance of all stats is reduced by a players skill in strategy.

That would be relevant if the two were not cumulative. Surely you can see that pilling the player's combat skills on top of his existing "roleplaying" choices shifts the game's balance toward FPS? What's left to the character? You get to choose who is attacked in either scenario but the player shouldn't also determine the outcomes... not in an rpg anyway.

 

[inwoker]

Counter-Strike is cool because...

did I ask it?

...it has a strong emphasis on wallshooting, a fucking awesome and fun FPS feature if you learn how to explot it.

...of motherfucking headshots. This is a game that provides some serious gory satisfaction.

...it's realistic. You can't bunny jump like crazy, nor rocket around.

so, still don't see anything brilliant, only some moderate fanboism

...of flashbangs and smokescreens. They add a lot to the tactical and strategical depth of the game.

...there is a defined recoil. In fact, you can actually control it if you crouch and spray.

...it's got a kickass money system. It rewards good skills, and allows for a myriad of strategies (Ecos, Decos, MP5 Rushes, AWP camping, etc.)

...it rewards teamplay. You're not a one-man-army (unless you're HeaToN, Potti, SpawN, or one of the other gods).

this is interesting, still anything brilliant at all

...you actually have to lay down a plan of action, and think it out. A single lost round can mean -$3000 and set you really behind. When to go for ecos, decos, when to camp, what weapons to buy, etc; it all detracts from your cash pool. Feigning rushes, making a split gamble, and many other possible strategies keep every round different.

just description of cstrike specifics, again every multiplayer shooter has strategy etc...

...planting & defusing (inside a 3-minute window) is a very nice multiplayer mode, making the game more static and less of a jump-around-fest.

this is not more than opinion
me thinks that, as you said jump-around-fest is much more interesting

...noise plays a very important role. Footsteps, reloading weapons, jumping, tossing grenades, picking weapons up and other actions can give away your position (which combined with wallshooting/flashbangs/rushes can prove disastrous).

noise plays very important role in every multiplayer shooter

I could go on and on, talking about how the map design is genius (despite a couple of glitches and exploits), how movement is fluid, perfect...almost like a dance, how fun it is to watch replays and analyze another team's strategies. How well fleshed out the weapon vs. armor system is. How incredibly different every gun is. How fun it is to fool around (building human totems, whore-camping until the last minute, getting knife kills, getting into normally inaccessible places), how satisfying to mow down a whole squad is. Even then, I wouldn't be digressing: Counter-Strike simply has too much to offer.

and a bit more fanboism

 

[dragonfk]

Count me in into CS fanboys, please.

 

[kingcomrade]

it rewards teamplay

lol, teamplay on Counter Strike. Enjoy your fantasies.

 

[Autowin]

I laugh out loud anytime someone suggests that stats, quests, inventory, or multiple-choice-dialog define a game as an RPG.

 

[1eyedking]

Counter-Strike is cool because...

did I ask it?

What's brilliant about it's design?

Pretty much.

this is interesting, still anything brilliant at all

If you don't see those changes as revolutionary, then you don't understand anything about game mechanics design.

just description of cstrike specifics, again every multiplayer shooter has strategy etc...

Name the games and their strategies. They must have come before CS.

this is not more than opinion
me thinks that, as you said jump-around-fest is much more interesting

That last part made me snort.

Ehem. Well, besides, that 'option' (as you said) is nothing short of revolutionary. To deny the tremendous change in gameplay that multiplayer mode has brought to the medium is to declare oneself ignorant. Take a look at the huge amount of games that copied it: Medal of Honor, Call of Duty, Day of Defeat, Firearms, etc. It was a huge departure from the deathmatch and CTF methods.

noise plays very important role in every multiplayer shooter

Not as important as in Counter-Strike. Games before it didn't place as much emphasis (or didn't have noises outright).

and a bit more fanboism

so, still don't see anything brilliant, only some moderate fanboism

Boy, calling a someone a fanboy makes for the wittiest of retorts.

 

[Gnidrologist]

I laugh out loud anytime someone suggests that stats, quests, inventory, or multiple-choice-dialog define a game as an RPG.

Yeah. Everyone know it's elves.