Editorial Vince D Weller on Non-Combat Gameplay

[Azarkon]

The trial in NWN 2, I suppose. It wasn't perfect, by any means, but it served to:

1) Further the plot, characters, and role-playing

2) Provide a challenge to those used to battling their way through everything.

Unfortunately, Obsidian had to screw it up by forcing a battle at the end, but even still, I enjoyed the quest.

(There are more examples, especially in PST, but the NWN 2 trial comes to mind as one non-combat quest that could be easily considered as a stand-alone, whereas most of PST was meaningful precisely because it was all tied together)

 

[hotdognights]

Wow, RPGCodex isn't that much different than the TES or Somethingawful forums after all.

 

[Lumpy]

Wow, RPGCodex isn't that much different than the TES or Somethingawful forums after all.

It hasn't been since around November, 2007.

Why is that, Lumpy?

Don't worry, it's got nothing to do with you, sweetcakes. You're fucking irrelevant.

 

[Andhaira]

Why is that Lumpy?

Don't worry, it's got nothing to do with you, sweetcakes. You're fucking irrelevant.

Did I do something to your mom?

 

[elander_]

The trial in NWN 2, I suppose. It wasn't perfect, by any means, but it served to:

There's always a few of those quests in every rpg. Even Oblivion has one quest that can be solved using stealth, by fighting or or *sacrilege* using a dialog option (not talking about that retarded mini-game).

What makes a good rpg or not in terms of choices is how many quality choices we get. I don't think it's essential for every quests to be doable in every possible way. A better solution would be to allocate a certain amount of xp for the play styles you are going to support.

Fallout (that reference of role-playing wisdom everyone should follow blindly specifically when they are dumdfucks) allocated at least 150,000 xp to dialog options unlocked by the speech skill and at least 100,000 xp for sneaking. Science also had at least 200,000 xp allocated to quest solutions that use your science skill. It allows one to have a safistying role-playing experience whatever the play style they choose and to experience most of the game while still leaving some room for replayability.

I think it's important when you have a main quest that it should be doable in any way because everyone will want to complete it. That is only if your rpg supports a main quest which it probably should to be able to sell your game. Other than that it's up to the player to decide how he wants to play and where he wants to go.

 

[fastpunk]

VeeDee is as full of shit as always.

So Andhaira really is JediLearner's alt.

 

[The Rambling Sage]

Wow, RPGCodex isn't that much different than the TES or Somethingawful forums after all.

When the accuser turns to also be the evidence...

 

[hotdognights]

EDIT:

I'm an idiot and Lumpy is smart. That said, it's disconcerting to see a sight that was once the last bastion of decent taste in RPGs become a fountain of Baldur's Gate love and distaste for choice and consequence.

 

[Jasede]

What? The fewest people here have a distaste for that.

Most like those pussy LARP RPGs like Fallout and Aranum where you can be "whatever you want", like a big hero, or a scrawny wizard or a cunning gentleman-thief.

The very fewest here like old, real RPGs - I can only think of Shagnak and me and maybe Binary. Most here welcome the "evolution" of RPGs away from Dungeon Crawlers to something "more" sophisticated.

Bah.

I think most fellows here like both fairly well, but prefer the "new" style, with all those dialogue skill checks and whatnot.

edit: don't get me wrong. I don't hate those new games. In fact, Arcanum is one of my favourite RPGs. However, it's a bit sad when people start saying the old style is not an RPG, or that elements of those modern games are mandatory to make an RPG. If someone made a dungeon crawler today without ANY choice and consequence apart of choose your own party, it'd still be an RPG, no matter what you say.

 

[Nightprowler]

I see here almost 4 pages of peoples fighting over something that doesn't require it.
If the posts were about either the diplomatic way is well done or crappy, I'd understand it, but why fighting over the fact there's one or not ?
I prefer the fighting way, but as long as it's not removed from the games to leave just the diplomatic, I couldn't care less...
Regarding the encounters turning to a fight impossible to avoid, yes, you can't always avoid a fight. Now, as already mentionned, the diplomat could hire people to protect him, or get in touch with the local mob and make sure (bribe option/returning favor/quest) he's safe. I mean, when you see a merchant (NPC) in Fallout, wandering around with his guards, noone's shocked, but when it comes to a PC with an escort, everyone's going nuts.
I won't bother giving more examples, as the game around is to flame down whatever comes instead of at least thinking about it.
They want a diplomatic way ? Give em a diplomatic way, who cares ? Just keep a fighting way and I'm fine And even, if the thing is well done, I might even give it a try out of curiosity.

 

[Ander Vinz]

Most like those pussy LARP RPGs like Fallout and Aranum where you can be "whatever you want", like a big hero, or a scrawny wizard or a cunning gentleman-thief.

The very fewest here like old, real RPGs - I can only think of Shagnak and me and maybe Binary. Most here welcome the "evolution" of RPGs away from Dungeon Crawlers to something "more" sophisticated.

HA-HA-HA

 

[RK47]

So real rpgs are 4-6 spreadsheets fighting thousands of spreadsheets culminating into a final encounter that requires your to beat a super spreadsheet with big numbers.

 

[caliban]

Blahblah old school blahblah dungeon crawl blahblah hardcore blahblah LARP blahblah I really am a prick blahblah "new style"

Correct me if I'm wrong, Jasede, but aren't you twenty-something? So please stop this ridiculous "oh, back in the old times which you may not remember, the games were better" crap. It makes you sound like a child.

I have nothing against old dungeon crawlers, mind you, but constantly reading the same crap is boring.

 

[Lumpy]

Most like those pussy LARP RPGs like Fallout and Aranum where you can be "whatever you want", like a big hero, or a scrawny wizard or a cunning gentleman-thief.

The irony of this coming from a fox-larping pussy aside, WTF? Care to explain why Fallout and Arcanum are "pussy LARP RPGs"? PST might be, arguably. But why the fuck Fallout? There's not much "I'm a good guy, I'm an evil bastard" roleplaying in FO, there's simply skill uses, and choices made based on expected consequences rather than moral standards.

The very fewest here like old, real RPGs - I can only think of Shagnak and me and maybe Binary. Most here welcome the "evolution" of RPGs away from Dungeon Crawlers to something "more" sophisticated.

Because only a retard would consider a game like Mask of the Betrayer to be an evolution from plain dungeon crawlers. Right...

I think most fellows here like both fairly well, but prefer the "new" style, with all those dialogue skill checks and whatnot.

Stupid dialogue choices complexicating my evolved dungeon crawlers.

edit: don't get me wrong. I don't hate those new games. In fact, Arcanum is one of my favourite RPGs. However, it's a bit sad when people start saying the old style is not an RPG, or that elements of those modern games are mandatory to make an RPG. If someone made a dungeon crawler today without ANY choice and consequence apart of choose your own party, it'd still be an RPG, no matter what you say.

It's hard not to get you wrong, when you call Fallout and Arcanum pussy LARP RPGs. In fact, with this edit you only further contradict yourself.

You know what the big irony is, actually? In this post, you act as if you're pissed off because people call your dungeon crawlers non-RPGs. But the truth is, the only reason this whole argument started is because you came in an AoD thread and started shouting that without forced combat for every single character type, it's not an RPG because it strays from your Dungeon Crawler ideal. You're the retard imposing a stupid definition upon RPGs, not us.

You don't like AoD for lack of forced combat. Fine. Do people come to your Goldbox threads to whine about lack of non-combat content? Didn't think so.

 

[Andhaira]

lol

Lumpy is frothing at the mouth,

 

[Jasede]

Internet is serious business.

edit: you know what. Here's the only thing - the only thing - I wanted to express: a totally non-combat path is very ynrealistic, even if you play a diplomat. You could STILL be ambushed by wolves, you could STILL meet a robber who won't listen to you, etc. That's all I wanted to say. There's no point arguing the other things because I am not going to convince anyone; least of all Lumpy who has turned from a nice guy to have around, even if inexperienced in RPGs, to someone very unpleasant to debate with. I am not going to argue any further. Serious business! :salute to avg, still waiting for rape:

 

[Vault Dweller]

Here's the only thing - the only thing - I wanted to express: a totally non-combat path is very ynrealistic, even if you play a diplomat. You could STILL be ambushed by wolves, you could STILL meet a robber who won't listen to you, etc. That's all I wanted to say.

Did you miss my Marco Polo example? The guy traveled over 5 years carrying gifts from the Pope to the Khan (imagine their value) all the way to China and then his fortune, made serving the Khan for 17 years, back to Venice. He lost neither his life nor the valuables. Just think about, Jasede.

In Canada a lot of people go hiking. They manage to avoid grizzly bears, wolves, coyotes, zombies, and cougars. Probably they have magical amulets or something.

You play a diplomat. You need to travel from city A to city B. If you don't have "wilderness survival" skills and decide to travel anyway, you are the stupidest diplomat ever and don't deserve to live. Alternatively, you can figure out a safe way to travel BEFORE you'll run into serious trouble. Marco's golden tablet worked very well and it fits RPG concepts perfectly. Alternatively, one can hire guards, join a caravan, ask the local ruler to provide armed escort, etc.

Overall, it's the "totally combat path" that is very unrealistic. Take Fallout, for example. What are the odds that a guy who spent all his life in a vault can go out and become an ultimate badass, killing raiders, big-ass scorpions, super mutants, robots, etc? No, seriously? You run into three super mutants with heavy firepower. As far as realism is concerned, you are already dead. The only guy who can kill his way out of every situation is Jack Bauer and his image is very far from being realistic.

So, if we can accept combat paths as uber "that's exactly what I would have done in this situation" realistic, why would anyone have problems with non-combat paths?

 

[Ratty]

don't get me wrong. I don't hate those new games.

That explains why you're so fixated upon disparaging them in every thread.

However, it's a bit sad when people start saying the old style is not an RPG, or that elements of those modern games are mandatory to make an RPG. If someone made a dungeon crawler today without ANY choice and consequence apart of choose your own party, it'd still be an RPG, no matter what you say.

Indeed, and if someone made, say, La Sortie des usines Lumière today, it would still be a movie, no matter what anyone says. But to argue that it would be on the same level as - or even comparable to - something like The Battleship Potemkin is simply ludicrous.

Here's the only thing - the only thing - I wanted to express: a totally non-combat path is very ynrealistic, even if you play a diplomat. You could STILL be ambushed by wolves, you could STILL meet a robber who won't listen to you, etc. That's all I wanted to say.

I see. And do you have any evidence that histories of Marco Polo, Sir Richard Burton and Napoleon Bonaparte were fabricated?

 

[Jasede]

Why is the only one who can competently and satisfyingly address my concerns the one I was attacking in the first place?

And are you sure about Napoleon?

Guys. Yes, it's silly, I know - I shouldn't be this fixated on old RPGs. But hey, I am! I grew up with them. It's only natural I tend to become a little suspicious when people start making RPGs where you can even avoid combat completely. But hey, let's just see how it turns out, okay?

 

[cardtrick]

You're all too extreme. Embrace your differences, kids! Link hands together in a rainbow of colors that encircles the world!

But seriously, at least Jasede admits he likes games like Arcanum and PS:T. The rest of you should really try a dungeon crawler sometime, if you haven't -- it's quite a different experience, but can be really fun. I love Wizardry 8. And people who have a liking for true dungeon crawlers -- like Jasede -- kind of have a right to complain, I think. Unlike the rest of us, who are under-served in our desire for good RPGs, they are completely unserved. Except for Grimoire.

 

[Claw]

There is Castle of the Winds.


I've played the first part so often and only yesterday have I found out that part two's been available for free for almost ten years.

Now I can finish it.

 

[Gnidrologist]

It's just another session of extreme attention whoring by Jasede, using his all new TAH OLDSKUUL VS NEWSKUUL trolling shtick, he has discovered lately. Being a furfag is so yesteryear.

 

[cardtrick]

It's just another session of extreme attention whoring by Jasede, using his all new TAH OLDSKUUL VS NEWSKUUL trolling shtick, he has discovered lately. Being a furfag is so yesteryear.

I feel like it's a return to form, actually. We had the "you are morally despicable if you have the vaguest interest in sex" thing for a few months, and that was definitely the worst. I mostly like the "OLDSKUUL VS NEWSKUUL" stuff he posts, although I can see how the intensity/frequency of it would get annoying. I doubt I would have given Wizardry 8 a second chance or even played Star Trail without it, so I'm grateful.

 

[Lumpy]

You're all too extreme. Embrace your differences, kids!

And people who have a liking for true dungeon crawlers -- like Jasede -- kind of have a right to complain, I think. Unlike the rest of us, who are under-served in our desire for good RPGs, they are completely unserved.

All fine, but Jasede didn't complain about the lack of new quality dungeon crawlers on the market, he started whining "Make AoD a dungeon crawler OR ELSE!"

I feel like it's a return to form, actually. We had the "you are morally despicable if you have the vaguest interest in sex" thing for a few months, and that was definitely the worst. I mostly like the "OLDSKUUL VS NEWSKUUL" stuff he posts, although I can see how the intensity/frequency of it would get annoying. I doubt I would have given Wizardry 8 a second chance or even played Star Trail without it, so I'm grateful.

I preferred the "Traditions should be religiously preserved no matter how fucked up!" shtick.

 

[cardtrick]

You're all too extreme. Embrace your differences, kids!

And people who have a liking for true dungeon crawlers -- like Jasede -- kind of have a right to complain, I think. Unlike the rest of us, who are under-served in our desire for good RPGs, they are completely unserved.

All fine, but Jasede didn't complain about the lack of new quality dungeon crawlers on the market, he started whining "Make AoD a dungeon crawler OR ELSE!"

Ah. And you felt that Vince was threatened by our furry friend? I'll admit, Jasede is a scary sort.