Editorial Vince D Weller on Non-Combat Gameplay

[Black]

So, a dialogue becomes a puzzle.

No, thanks, I'll pass.

certain amount of player skill required

I c wut u did thar

 

[Andhaira]

Not to intrude in this most fascinating of threads but I see Torment being quoted as the exemplar of diplomacy, so let me say this:

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TOTALLY AVOID COMBAT IN PLANESCAPE TORMENT!!!!!

You still have to fight some random battles.

 

[Black]

Yeah. So? Want a cookie for that 'discovery'?

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Not to intrude in this most fascinating of threads but I see Torment being quoted as the exemplar of diplomacy, so let me say this:

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TOTALLY AVOID COMBAT IN PLANESCAPE TORMENT!!!!!

You still have to fight some random battles.

You can sneak past random battles (not diplomacy but whatever) but there are 4 combat encounters IIRC that can't be skipped.

 

[elander_]

That wasn't my point. I just don't think anyone's made non-combat interesting yet.

I assume you are saying nobody made dialog with interesting game mechanics yet. There is plenty of fun gameplay for non-combat games.

Gambling is still considered a game isn't it? And also using your brains to deduce things and infere knowledge that isn't explicitly given to you. That's the game you are looking for.

Text adventure games and chose your own adventure games have been using it for a long time.

 

[Andhaira]

Not to intrude in this most fascinating of threads but I see Torment being quoted as the exemplar of diplomacy, so let me say this:

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TOTALLY AVOID COMBAT IN PLANESCAPE TORMENT!!!!!

You still have to fight some random battles.

You can sneak past random battles (not diplomacy but whatever) but there are 4 combat encounters IIRC that can't be skipped.

And thus, you reinforce my point.

 

[Lumpy]

Not to intrude in this most fascinating of threads but I see Torment being quoted as the exemplar of diplomacy, so let me say this:

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TOTALLY AVOID COMBAT IN PLANESCAPE TORMENT!!!!!

You still have to fight some random battles.

You can sneak past random battles (not diplomacy but whatever) but there are 4 combat encounters IIRC that can't be skipped.

And thus, you reinforce my point.

Ho-ly fuck!
Do they come dumber than that?

 

[Lumpy]

So, a dialogue becomes a puzzle.

No, thanks, I'll pass.

Dialogue a sort of puzzle? Having to carefully choose what you say among many options? Completely unrealistic abstraction, that.

 

[The Rambling Sage]

Not to intrude in this most fascinating of threads but I see Torment being quoted as the exemplar of diplomacy, so let me say this:

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TOTALLY AVOID COMBAT IN PLANESCAPE TORMENT!!!!!

You still have to fight some random battles.

But in Torment you can actually chat with the Rats and work for them, so i though you would love it.

 

[Sarvis]

That wasn't my point. I just don't think anyone's made non-combat interesting yet.

I assume you are saying nobody made dialog with interesting game mechanics yet. There is plenty of fun gameplay for non-combat games.

Gambling is still considered a game isn't it? And also using your brains to deduce things and infere knowledge that isn't explicitly given to you. That's the game you are looking for.

Text adventure games and chose your own adventure games have been using it for a long time.

Well, I was talking about RPGs. For some reason even stuff that can and has been done well on it's own typically isn't in RPGs. Sure, there are poker games that are fun... but I can't think of an RPG that sets up a gambling environment and then let's you play poker or something similar as part of the scenario. Some jRPGs do, but it's still usually simplified beyond what an actual game would be.

 

[Andhaira]

Not to intrude in this most fascinating of threads but I see Torment being quoted as the exemplar of diplomacy, so let me say this:

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TOTALLY AVOID COMBAT IN PLANESCAPE TORMENT!!!!!

You still have to fight some random battles.

You can sneak past random battles (not diplomacy but whatever) but there are 4 combat encounters IIRC that can't be skipped.

And thus, you reinforce my point.

Ho-ly fuck!
Do they come dumber than that?

Yep. Go look in a mirror.

 

[The Rambling Sage]

So, a dialogue becomes a puzzle.

No, thanks, I'll pass.

certain amount of player skill required

I c wut u did thar

Uh, so?

Your options are based on the character's skills, previous choices, and in-game knowledge. The way you use them is based on your own problem-solving skills and understanding of the situation.

Just, you know, like in combat? Last time i checked fallout's jumpsuit guy didn't choose where to call shots on his own, nor did my TOEE party made and execute its own plan.

 

[Ratty]

I can't believe staggering number of people here can't grasp that it's possible to create compelling gameplay that doesn't revolve around combat, even after VD provides several instructive examples and when there is an *entire fucking game genre* built around non-violent forms of interaction as cornerstones. If non-violent game mechanics are so fundamentally unbalancing and devoid of any semblance of challenge, then how on Earth are we able to derive dozens of hours of entertainment from games like Myst, Monkey Island, Leisure Suit Larry or Discworld? The mind boggles.

I never thought I'd say something like this to someone on RPGCodex, but people, lay off the fucking dungeon crawlers. They appear to have warped your mindset so much that you are no longer able to wrap your minds around one of the oldest and most successful game design paradigms nor accept the prospect of CRPG designers tapping into that paradigm to craft a more varied and compelling roleplaying experience. I thought this place advocated *advancing* the CRPG genre? Or was that before slogging through a fetid underground maze hacking your way through throngs of random-spawned high-fantasy monsters was formally established as the golden standard of CRPG design?

 

[Andhaira]

But isn'tthe adventure point and click genre dead?
isn'tit the ONLY genre of video gaming thats bit the bucket? (even puzzle games and 2d fighting games still sell)

 

[Ratty]

But isn'tthe adventure point and click genre dead?

No, it isn't. In fact, it's probably doing better than the CRPG genre.

 

[Sarvis]

I thought this place advocated *advancing* the CRPG genre?

What? Are you kidding? This place is about enshrining Fallout as the epitome of everything RPG-ness, and discrediting anything else as an RPG. If you introduce elements not found in Fallout you're probably making an Adventure game like Final Fantasy!

 

[Sarvis]

No. Just give dialogue design the same resources that go to combat, and create conversational situations with the same detail you design "action" encounters.

The SAME resources? So you want a game with 1 dialog tree and 50 combats?

 

[Andhaira]

But isn'tthe adventure point and click genre dead?

No, it isn't. In fact, it's probably doing better than the CRPG genre.

Umm...no its not. The alst major adventure was the sequel to the longest journey. it did not sell too well (probably because they waited until teveryone hadforgotten about longest journey b4 releasing this)

 

[Sarvis]

But isn'tthe adventure point and click genre dead?

No, it isn't. In fact, it's probably doing better than the CRPG genre.

Umm...no its not. The alst major adventure was the sequel to the longest journey. it did not sell too well (probably because they waited until teveryone hadforgotten about longest journey b4 releasing this)

You're probably just talking about PC, but Zak & Wiki for the Wii was pretty good...

 

[The Rambling Sage]

But isn'tthe adventure point and click genre dead?

No, it isn't. In fact, it's probably doing better than the CRPG genre.

As a matter of fact they ARE doing better than the CRPG genre by far. They dominate the indie scene, are slowly recovering mainstream attention among "older" players, and also get a good amount of "big money" tittles. Compared with the "one -good- release a year if lucky" state of the CRPG genre, they are doing pretty well.

In a way they found their niche, being able to survive even if the "industry" and media just ignore or bash them.

The SAME resources? So you want a game with 1 dialog tree and 50 combats?

Maybe i choose words wrongly. For resources i understand time, coders, designers, and money. Since a vast amount of those go to combat related things - Animations, models, effects, big dungeons to later populate with neverending hordes of evil, so-called A.I, encounter design, loot generators, mob placement, et cetera - i would say "redirect part of the time, coders, designers, and money dedicated to all this uneventful shit to dialogue, puzzle, and PNJ design."

But then most campaigns i am a player or GM to only have a couple of duels, some set-piece battles designes as puzzles, and some Boss fights designed as super-puzzles - And so it is too my dream CRPG. So, to answer your question, i believe a CRPG with five combats total and a lot of interaction, dialogues, puzzles, character development, and skill checks would be heaven.

[Edit] Language Mix-Up: PNJ = NPC. Sorry about that.

 

[Azarkon]

Non-combat solutions aren't as simple as the combat crowd paint them. How many people figured out that you can blow up the radscorpions cave's entrance and seal it? Convincing the Master that his plan won't work is also a bit more complicated than picking the right dialogue option.

I tend to agree, but I think the current offering of non-combat solutions leaves alot to be desired. There are only a couple of things I cannot stand in a game, and one of them happens to be doing a breadth-first search through the game space in order to find a "clue" with which I can solve a quest. There is a fine, fine line between an ingenious non-combat solution that could be discovered through careful thought, and a frustrating experience that involves puzzles of the worst kind (ie poking through every nook and cranny in search of some hidden trigger... I have better things to do than waste time on that). Unfortunately, most designers fall on the wrong side of the line, and turn the roleplaying experience into a horrid puzzle game. In fact, most puzzles in CRPGs are simply bad, because not only do they fail to be interesting from a puzzle-solving point of view, but they represent long droughts of plot and character development. If that is the only sort of challenge that can be derived from non-combat solutions, I would rather do without.

But I'm not excluding good implementations. There are just so few of them.

 

[Black]

So, a dialogue becomes a puzzle.

No, thanks, I'll pass.

Dialogue a sort of puzzle? Having to carefully choose what you say among many options? Completely unrealistic abstraction, that.

It's a shame you don't really read my dear.

 

[The Rambling Sage]

Non-combat solutions aren't as simple as the combat crowd paint them. How many people figured out that you can blow up the radscorpions cave's entrance and seal it? Convincing the Master that his plan won't work is also a bit more complicated than picking the right dialogue option.

I tend to agree, but I think the current offering of non-combat solutions leaves alot to be desired. There are only a couple of things I cannot stand in a game, and one of them happens to be doing a breadth-first search through the game space in order to find a "clue" with which I can solve a quest. There is a fine, fine line between an ingenious non-combat solution that could be discovered through careful thought, and a frustrating experience that involves puzzles of the worst kind (ie poking through every nook and cranny in search of some hidden trigger... I have better things to do than waste time on that). Unfortunately, most designers fall on the wrong side of the line, and turn the roleplaying experience into a horrid puzzle game. In fact, most puzzles in CRPGs are simply bad, because not only do they fail to be interesting from a puzzle-solving point of view, but they represent long droughts of plot and character development. If that is the only sort of challenge that can be derived from non-combat solutions, I would rather do without.

But I'm not excluding good implementations. There are just so few of them.

Well, back in the day puzzles used to be normal in most "Lets plunder this dungeon" CRPGs. By now they should have reached a level of wit and finesse comparable to the most twisted Adventure games - But instead we get either half-assed riddles that solve itself or half-assed riddles that require mind reading, not really surprising when most players have gone from being Geeks to being guys of the "A lock. A key. Mmmm... I almost got it." school of puzzle solving, and same with most developers. Today most "puzzles" are actually "mini games", and not puzzling in the least. Time sinks, mostly, requiring the wrong kind of skill.

But then riddles, obscure mechanisms, situations requiring the application of an specific set of skills, spells, or items in a very particular fashion, and very complex social situations where one mistake could mean the end of the party are still strong elements in P&P RPGs. The problem with CRPGs is that no one wants to either put the time required for a good puzzle nor run the risk of alienating a good deal of the market by means of riddles and the like requiring a functional brain.

In any case, it is said a puzzle that does not stops the player and totally blocks him until he has applied enough brainpower as to have an "Eureka" moment (or a "Mmmm... that is funny." moment) is not really a puzzle - Just in the same way a fight that does not stop the player and rapes his party up until he has invested enough thought as to make a flawless plan and execute it in detail is not really a challenging fight, or just like a dialogue that does not make the player carefully choose what to say and fear the future consequences is not really meaningful in any way.

The modern school of CRPG design got it all wrong, at least in the part about "challenge." Yes - The EXECUTION of an action must be ruled by the character stats and skills, but the solving of a given situation (be it solving a puzzle, a battle, an importan dialogue, researching old and dusty books, or whatever) must be up to the player, just as the choices are, and not to the skills or the character.

Ummm... Well. Anyway, there's a point somewhere.

I guess.

 

[RK47]

Well dialogues in combat as a form of intimidation check? I'm sure charisma & strength can come into play here, not in the usual +Dmg way.

It's more like Bluff / Feint checks or Intimidation that forces enemy into a mistake (Lowering Defence/Taking critical hit on next turn) etc.

There are many examples of protagonists that rely not only on fast reflexes or pure brute strength but instead he has quick wits that help him prevent violent encounters yet still aid him when the swords are drawn. (You fight like a cow!)

 

[elander_]

But I'm not excluding good implementations. There are just so few of them.

What is a good implementation example in your opinion?