Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Editorial Voice acting in RPGs - yay or nay?

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Voice over is only good when the player has no control. If the player controls the dialog, and can read and skip ahead, then voice over is inevitably skipped, at least some parts of the dialog. And that causes the 'yeah, i'm playing a game' feeling.

So, cutscenes dialog, selection/order feeback dialog, ambient npc dialog, introductory lines, ending lines, death lines, location lines, even pc exclamations to ambient npc comments (not dialog, for instance, combat taunts) are good.
Voice during dialog is 'meh' even if the dialog is amazing, because you're going to be skipping that even during the first time you hear it sometimes, plus it costs obscene amounts of money.

Unless you make voice the only feedback mechanism and force players to hear the dialog. It could be a nice experiment, but i suspect reviewers would crucify your game.

A problem with this, is, of course, games that like to show faces and are full 3d. It looks pretty damn silly nowadays to center on a character for a conversation and not see their lips moving, but oh well, maybe a camera change so their faces are not visible. But that loses expressions which was a big part of the appeal of VTMB.

I wonder if a game with VTMB-like expressions and 'voice-sync' but without the actual voice would be a disaster.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,150
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
If it's full voice acting, it mean very limited in gameplay branching routes.

If it's partial, it mean you can do branching well, with only critical dialog in voice.

After that, we can start talking about quality voice acting or not.
 

sgc_meltdown

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2003
Messages
6,000
I wonder if a game with VTMB-like expressions and 'voice-sync' but without the actual voice would be a disaster.

a possible way of pulling this off without huge swaths of specific VA for corresponding dialog amounts is to have fictional generic language audio like they did for kotor's aliens

if it's humans you would still need many different types for each gender though, and definitely unique ones for lead characters

like soundsets in the infinity games but for character tropes

high five we fixed it let's kickstart an universal FPS/isometric rpg module maker and put this tech into it, talking heads for the isometric view and full on treatment for fps

it's okay rpgs

I got you now brother
I got you
 

Fatty

Augur
Joined
Nov 17, 2011
Messages
134
Location
Gladstone
Just give me the option to turn it off. I'd rather it not be there at all but it can be marginally tolerable the first time through. Marginally. After that, if I play the game again (or restart) just STFU please.

Off hand I can't think of a single example of VA in a CRPG that added anything to the experience that I wouldn't have rather just read.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Yes, I'm sure it wouldn't consist of linear corridors, horrid pop-a-mole console shooter combat, and shallow mmo-style grind quests.

Different approach determines different execution, and making ME without full voice-over would have to mean completely different approach in design. So yes, I believe much so.

No.
 

Stelcio

Savant
Joined
Jan 18, 2012
Messages
237
Yes, I'm sure it wouldn't consist of linear corridors, horrid pop-a-mole console shooter combat, and shallow mmo-style grind quests.

Different approach determines different execution, and making ME without full voice-over would have to mean completely different approach in design. So yes, I believe much so.

No.
:hmmm:
Care to elaborate or is it top of your ability of discussing?
 

Stinger

Arcane
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
1,366
I want to read this for Chris Avellone but Rowan Kaiser is a hack and I don't want to give him hits.

Can someone post the article in full so the rest of us don't have to click on it?
 
Self-Ejected

Ulminati

Kamelåså!
Patron
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
20,317
Location
DiNMRK
First line spoken to establish what the NPC sounds like. And possibly a few OMG DRAMATIC lines. Majority of dialogue as text. that seems to be the best option.

That said, VTMB probably wouldn't have been the same without full voice. But then again, the VA did a really good job on that one.
I guess it really depends on the game being made. I'd take good writing over spoken dialogue most of the time though. I'd rather have no voice than poor voice. So unless you have biowarian amounts of cash to sink into VA talent, don't even attempt it.
 

Stinger

Arcane
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
1,366
Decided to do it myself:

Jennifer Hale, Nolan North and Troy Baker, among others, have become video game celebrities for their voice acting – deservedly so, given how entertaining they can be as characters like Commander Shepard or Nathan Drake. Recorded speech has become a significant component of most all games, notably RPGs, having grown steadily since the shift to CD-ROM games in the mid-1990s. Yet their importance isn't always apparent.

I, for one, didn't realize their impact on games until just a year or two ago, when I commented on game designer Brenda Brathwaite's blog about how an RPG could be done cheaper and faster without many modern components, which included recorded speech. Brathwaite responded specifically to the voice acting component, saying that once her company started making RPGs with voice acting, they discovered that their writing and editing process had to be completed well in advance of what they were used to, with the actor's recording of his or her lines "baking" the narrative section in place much earlier than normal.

"Great ideas were left sitting on the bench because the time to record them (or render graphics) wasn't available," she said in her reply.

Was this a normal issue facing RPG developers? I started a quick conversation with Chris Avellone of Obsidian Entertainment – designer of famous RPGs like Planescape: Torment, Fallout 2, Alpha Protocol and Fallout: New Vegas expansions – about player choice in cinematic RPGs, and he volunteered, unprompted, some of his issues with recorded speech. "I don't enjoy doing cinematic conversations for a variety of reasons, but I have done them as part of my job."

Avellone described three main issues: first, that it disrupts his design process; second, his personal preference in terms of role-playing; and third, that their hard work that may not bear fruit.

In the first case, he says: "...on the resource end, the flexibility for fixing and editing voice-acted speech often interferes with the later stages of production as well – working on Alpha Protocol vs. Fallout 2, for example, were much different experiences, and I enjoyed F2 more." This aligns him with Braithwaite's experiences.

When I asked him if he had any particular example, he couldn't pick just one, saying, "My best example of voice inflexibility is just about any game I've worked on that was fully VO'd. Whether Alpha Protocol or [Knights of the Old Republic 2], the recording and localization must be done much earlier than the end product. If a quest is edited, changed, a character dropped, a mission removed, an error found, then you spend a lot of time editing lines and trying to work with the story cohesion."

Having played Knights of the Old Republic 2, a game with tremendous potential but one which was clearly hampered by lack of development time, I could sympathize. Huge swaths of that game were removed, rendering the original end of the game an incoherent mess. Modders have patched in parts that were removed, but they lack much of the polish of the original game. The amount of time spent fixing the issues of recorded dialogue must have played a part in the lack of time available to meet the publisher's release date demands.

On the personal level, Avellone says, "Often, conversations where the player is voice-acted detracts from my experience (I want to imagine what my character sounds like, not what a voice actor puts in my mouth)." Now, I don't entirely share this belief, although I do dislike it when a game, especially a role-playing game, makes the character who is supposed to represent "me" sound ridiculous (see the infamous Final Fantasy X scene above for the most notorious, if over-hated, example).

However, I do find that voice acting often disrupts the pacing of the games to their detriment. I tend to read much faster than people speak, especially people trying to enunciate clearly for a recorded story. The slower pacing can be grating, especially if the writing and the voice acting aren't done well.

That's one of Avellone's main points as well: "RPG cinematic conversations are incredibly labor-intensive and something that only a few studios excel at." He cites BioWare specifically, saying that they succeed where so many others fail. "BioWare is good at cinematic dialogue because they have the resources, skilled personnel (and the resources to hire specialized personnel as well), and a pipeline built and established from iterations of a conversation system across several similar titles, which is a damn smart way to do things."

In fact, Avellone isn't even sure that the rewards are worth the effort and hassle: "I am questioning whether developers should ever try to that, as I don't feel there's any value in playing catch-up to someone who's already got it down unless you're adding some new mechanic to the experience." This seems a little extreme to me – The Witcher's use of voice acting struck me as surprisingly effective – but I'm likewise unsure if the rewards match the hassle.

Many years ago, I remember reading Raymond E. Feist describing the process of creating the accents used for Return To Krondor before it was released. He talked about how, given one of the main characters' geographic location within the fantasy world as well as his class, it made sense to give him a hybrid Cockney/Mediterranean/Pacific Islander accent and how they were working with the voice actors to achieve these accents. The idea sounded good, and having read Feist's plans I understood why James sounded how he did. But other people – who didn't know the intent of the process – simply derided the accent as a ridiculous mish-mash of totally different influences. A lot of work, not a lot of reward.

However, there are cases where good voice acting is critical to a game's success. Obsidian Entertainment is currently working on South Park: The Stick of Truth, which Avellone described as "...an example where, by the nature of the franchise, removing the voices would hurt the title." He did note "...that doesn't mean we have to voice the (Player Character)/New Kid, however." He also cited the recent Batman games as similar examples, made better by their voice acting. "Arkham Asylum/City benefited from a number of the Animated series actors, so that's another example. Then again, those are established, set characters in a set universe."

It's easy for players to simply consider the presence of voice acting in a game as simply a delivery of text via a different sense, but it's more complicated than that. It affects pacing and role-playing potential on the player's end. It also adds new levels of complexity to the designer's job, making games take longer and cost more money, especially games with complex, large narratives like RPGs. When it works well, it can be a fantastic addition to a game. But I don't think it would hurt for players to adjust their expectations regarding voice acting. It may be more trouble than it's worth.

Overall nothing new added and Avellone himself is retreading familiar material. We've had far more insightful and practical discussions about VO here before.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,409
Location
Copenhagen
I feel like saying I love voice acting but I can really only recall VtM:B where the voice acting added more value that it cost to implement.

It was, however, quite a value there.
 

Zed

Codex Staff
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
17,068
Codex USB, 2014
How much voiced dialogue did VtMB have though? I mean, relative other games with"full VO". I remember a lot of text in the game being read on monitors (and obviously not voiced). The PC wasn't voiced either.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,409
Location
Copenhagen
How much voiced dialogue did VtMB have though? I mean, relative other games with"full VO". I remember a lot of text in the game being read on monitors (and obviously not voiced). The PC wasn't voiced either.

Nothing next to games like DA:O since all the text was, you know, relevant. So I'm guessing not that much. But does it matter?

The point was more that I didn't feel voice acting added much of value unless it was absolutely excellent (as was the case with Bloodlines).
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,150
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Just give me the option to turn it off. I'd rather it not be there at all but it can be marginally tolerable the first time through. Marginally. After that, if I play the game again (or restart) just STFU please.

Off hand I can't think of a single example of VA in a CRPG that added anything to the experience that I wouldn't have rather just read.

The Tourette sisters voice actress is awesome.
 

Zed

Codex Staff
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
17,068
Codex USB, 2014
The point was more that I didn't feel voice acting added much of value unless it was absolutely excellent (as was the case with Bloodlines).
I agree. But I think it's easier to go wrong the more you have.
 

SuicideBunny

(ノ ゜Д゜)ノ ︵ ┻━┻
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
8,943
Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Torment: Tides of Numenera
Yes, I'm sure it wouldn't consist of linear corridors, horrid pop-a-mole console shooter combat, and shallow mmo-style grind quests.

Different approach determines different execution, and making ME without full voice-over would have to mean completely different approach in design. So yes, I believe much so.
voice overs are not a major design decision and the pretty much only system they affect in ME are dialogues and there is no connection between dialogue system as such and the popamole linear corridor shooter gameplay, ergo no way voice overs or their absence would have any influence whatsoever on the latter.
 

l3loodAngel

Proud INTJ
Patron
Edgy
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
1,452
Off hand I can't think of a single example of VA in a CRPG that added anything to the experience that I wouldn't have rather just read.
PST - Ravel and Transcendant one dialogue before duel. The Morte lines.
MotB - Gan banter.
Other than that can be axed without harm...
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I feel like saying I love voice acting but I can really only recall VtM:B where the voice acting added more value that it cost to implement.

It was, however, quite a value there.
How much of that was VO and how much was expressions? Still, if you're going to do voice over, do it like bloodlines
1: don't hire superstars
2: have a sound director ffs
3: have the writers involved with the recording
4: don't voice the pc if it is a blank slate, it is even probably harmful
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom