Game News Wasteland 2 Kickstarter Update #35: Follow Up on the Prison Demo

[Excidium]

Not many RPGs before fallout had action points, aimed attacks, visibility penalties, hex grid movement, critical tables, etc. They tried to make combat tactical but they just kinda sucked at designing systems.

I'm not sure if having a supa-detailed combat model necessarily means that the designer's intention was to implement tactical combat. I suspect that some of those 90s designers had a mindset of "add more stats and details cuz those are cool"

That's not supa-detailed, it's the basics for an RPG of that time.

especially in Fallout's case where they were originally intending to implement GURPS and then had to replace it with something equally complex.

But to the extent they would have probably implemented in Fallout, GURPS is p. simple.

 

[Brother None]

Trying to make a game that is both a Jagged Alliance 2-level tactical combat game AND a fully-featured, deep RPG with a complex skill system, tons of dialog and C&C would be a horrible example of feature bloat even if you had an AAA budget. I find WL2's combat challenging and more tactical than most turn-based RPGs I know of, but beating JA2 was never a goal.

the fact that most areas aren't even ready.

A lot of areas will not be in the beta.

Am I misunderstanding something here or do they not realize one of those stances has been pretty much implemented already (which renders the whole "animation" argument rather moot, potential difficulties coding in proper AI behaviour etc. aside)? Both the Rangers and the NPCs assume a crouching position when behind waist-high cover nodes.

Those animations would look ridiculous in open space. GraphicWhoreDex would not stand for it.

 

[Infinitron]

Not many RPGs before fallout had action points, aimed attacks, visibility penalties, hex grid movement, critical tables, etc.

That's not supa-detailed, it's the basics for an RPG of that time.

Hmmm.

 

[Excidium]

Not many RPGs before fallout had action points, aimed attacks, visibility penalties, hex grid movement, critical tables, etc.

That's not supa-detailed, it's the basics for an RPG of that time.

Hmmm.

Sorry, meant CRPGs on that first line.

 

[HiddenX]

Excidium What about Goldbox games, Ultima 6, Betrayal at Krondor, Realms of Arkania, Dark Sun games, Incubation ... ?

 

[Excidium]

Excidium What about Goldbox games, Ultima 6, Betrayal at Krondor, Realms of Arkania, Dark Sun games, Incubation ... ?

What of them? Never played Incubation.

 

[HiddenX]

All tactical CRPGs with grid movement before Fallout 1 with many tactical options.

PS:
Incubation & addon are THE HARDEST tactical combat games ever made. JA 2 is easy against these.

 

[Excidium]

All tactical CRPGs with grid movement before Fallout 1 with many tactical options.

Some of these games did implement things that fallout didn't (fallout seriously lacked guard/overwatch, interrupts or disengage attacks). Don't forget that all those games are party-based so you are probably relying on that fact for the many tactical options. Not to mention magical spells which are the easiest and surest way to add tactical depth. But pick two mundane characters and combat options amount to bumping each other and scraping HP until one dies.

 

[tuluse]

Also a hex grid was specified, not any grid.

 

[Roguey]

Still likely to have better combat than every Top 10 Codex RPG sans ToEE, even without stances.

I'll be disappointed if it's worse than ToEE considering its uneven content and use of D&D rules.

It shouldn't be too difficult even for an inept team to make turn-based combat better than what we had in 80s and early 90s RPGs simply because those games were made in the 80s and 90s. Just as long as they don't tune it absurdly low, which likely won't be as big a problem here as it was in Shadowrun Returns.

 

[Infinitron]

It shouldn't be too difficult even for an inept team to make turn-based combat better than what we had in 80s and early 90s RPGs simply because those games were made in the 80s and 90s.

Explain.

 

[Roguey]

It shouldn't be too difficult even for an inept team to make turn-based combat better than what we had in 80s and early 90s RPGs simply because those games were made in the 80s and 90s.

Explain.

Technology's improved a lot and it's not like those games had exceptional content and systems. Most of them were D&D derivatives.

 

[tuluse]

How does improved technology affect turn based rules?

 

[Excidium]

How does improved technology affect turn based rules?

Making the game itself is a hella lot easier. Very little in the way of technical limitations.

 

[UnknownBro]

This game is going to SUCK. Embrace the shittyness.

What's next, romances are in?

 

[Lady_Error]

PS:T had romances... Yet it didn't suck. Depends on how you do it, I guess.

 

[tuluse]

How does improved technology affect turn based rules?

Making the game itself is a hella lot easier. Very little in the way of technical limitations.

I don't think there was a technological limitation on Cain and co realizing their critical tables were fucked up and no one would do anything but shoot for the eyes.

I guess it's easier to prototype things, but as you like to point out pnp rpgs have plenty of great mechanics that make all CRPGs look terrible, and those didn't require any technology to come up with. I don't think implementation was that hard in the 90s. Plus, Jagged Alliance 2 has yet to be topped and that came out in 99.

 

[Infinitron]

What's next, romances are in?

Goat romances.

 

[Brother None]

Combat design is a matter of design and iteration. It has little to do with technology, though earlier prototyping and improved AI certainly helps.

But if you expect the ultimate improvement upon Jagged Alliance 2's execution of turn-based combat to come from a full-fledged, deep RPG, you're delusional.

 

[Excidium]

How does improved technology affect turn based rules?

Making the game itself is a hella lot easier. Very little in the way of technical limitations.

I don't think there was a technological limitation on Cain and co realizing their critical tables were fucked up and no one would do anything but shoot for the eyes.

I guess it's easier to prototype things, but as you like to point out pnp rpgs have plenty of great mechanics that make all CRPGs look terrible, and those didn't require any technology to come up with. I don't think implementation was that hard in the 90s. Plus, Jagged Alliance 2 has yet to be topped and that came out in 99.

Well, in the case of Fallout specifically it's mostly dumb design. Doesn't take a lot of time to realize that firing a gun costing more AP than reloading and reloading AP costs being universal is p. retarded for example.

I was referring to older games. Less time spent worrying about low-level stuff and limitations now that hardware is a non-issue and you have APIs that do everything for you is more time implementing more complex designs.

 

[Infinitron]

Doesn't take a lot of time to realize that firing a gun costing more AP than reloading and reloading AP costs being universal is p. retarded for example.

Hmmm, got any arguments for this that aren't based on REALISM?

 

[Excidium]

Well, in the case of Fallout specifically it's mostly dumb design. Doesn't take a lot of time to realize that firing a gun costing more AP than reloading and reloading AP costs being universal is p. retarded for example.

Hmmm, got any arguments for this that aren't based on REALISM?

AP costs are based on the time each task takes. What takes more time, pointing the gun and pulling the trigger or removing the magazine, putting bullets in it then inserting it back in? What's faster to reload, a pistol or a minigun?

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

WRONG! AP costs are based on FUN!

 

[Infinitron]

AP costs are based on the time each task takes. What takes more time, pointing the gun and pulling the trigger or removing the magazine, putting bullets in it then inserting it back in? What's faster to reload, a pistol or a minigun?

Yes, those are realism/simulation-based arguments. Do you have any other, more substantial arguments for a heftier reload AP cost?

(For the record, I have a Sawyery gamist argument for it. Let's see if you can figure it out.)

 

[FeelTheRads]

more time implementing more complex designs.

Except... nobody does it, because graphics and the rest of this shit actually take a lot more money and time than it did before. If games were made at the graphical level of the old game, then you would be right, but they're not.
Even inXile prefers to focus on animations (or so they say) rather than more complex designs.