Codex Interview Wasteland 2 RPG Codex Interview with Brian Fargo - Part 1

[Achilles]

Almost all the guys who played skyrim would like a Wasteland with updated graphics

I really wish I could believe that, but I'd have to see it with my own eyes. If Fargo's Kickstarter manages to raise the money, I'd consider it a step in the right direction.

 

[Infinitron]

I didn't say they should lie. That's why I said they should reduce the scope of the game and expand on it if they raise more money. Anyways, you're much better informed than I am, I wasn't aware that 1 million is the minimum amount of money they need to produce it.
To be honest, I'll be surprised if they get more than half of it. I'm still donating and corssing my fingers, but it won't work out propably. Double Fine raised 2 millions sure, but that doesn't mean that every game dev who promises to produce a hardcore RPG will get even nearly as much.

Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert are legends, and at least Schafer has a solid reputation of making fun games even today. Brian Fargo, not so much. Hell, I bet there are many people around who are fans of classic RPGs yet don't really know who Fargo is.

Why do they need more than twice for their game than Double Fine? Are adventures really that much cheaper to make? Or maybe Fargos project is just too ambitious? I don't know, but somehow this looks like a doomed endeavour to me.

I had no idea who Schafer was until I saw the kickstarter hubub even though he made two of my all time favorite games. And there's no way in hell I'd give him a cent if he's making stuff like Costume Quest now. And I still have no idea who Gilbert is. Brian Fargo's name has stood out for me like few others in spite of not much done lately that I'd be interested in.

I really doubt that there's more adventure game fans than RPG fans, or even close to as many. If there was you'd see some made once in a while. There's tons of RPG fans, it's just a lot easier to sort of please them than it is with adventure games. Almost all the guys who played skyrim would like a Wasteland with updated graphics, but it's a lot quicker to make something like skyrim and it translates to a console well.

Due to inflation the budget of the old fallout would be even more today. So you can't really cut too much out from there, you just can't keep a dozen people employed for long for 100k, or make anything at all without either lots of people or a very long dev time which also costs money. But how much of that budget went to voice acting, I wonder? Probably quite a bit, and I skipped over about 100% of it, voice acting is just annoying as hell if it's more than one sentence.

So I don't think it's too unrealistic. I'm almost sure there's more people out there who want this game, but I'm not sure they know they want this game. Many if not most of the guys playing back then have long since decided that RPG today means wander around aimlessly listening to voice acting, or you play an MMO. If I didn't get a new game recommended by the codex once in a blue moon I'd have long since stopped trying RPGs altogether, just as I have with adventure games. Adventure games almost never get made, and they are never good enough for me to care when they do.

Check your assumptions. I don't think you realize how big the adventure game genre was in the early 90's.
And that's what matters - the old fans. 16-year old kids who play Skryim aren't going to donate to your Kickstarter. A Kickstarter game needs to be aimed at an older audience.
Actually though not knowing who Schafer and Gilbert are tells us all we need to know about you.

 

[Shannow]

I had no idea who Schafer was until I saw the kickstarter hubub even though he made two of my all time favorite games. And there's no way in hell I'd give him a cent if he's making stuff like Costume Quest now. And I still have no idea who Gilbert is. Brian Fargo's name has stood out for me like few others in spite of not much done lately that I'd be interested in.

I really doubt that there's more adventure game fans than RPG fans, or even close to as many. If there was you'd see some made once in a while. There's tons of RPG fans, it's just a lot easier to sort of please them than it is with adventure games. Almost all the guys who played skyrim would like a Wasteland with updated graphics, but it's a lot quicker to make something like skyrim and it translates to a console well.

Due to inflation the budget of the old fallout would be even more today. So you can't really cut too much out from there, you just can't keep a dozen people employed for long for 100k, or make anything at all without either lots of people or a very long dev time which also costs money. But how much of that budget went to voice acting, I wonder? Probably quite a bit, and I skipped over about 100% of it, voice acting is just annoying as hell if it's more than one sentence.

So I don't think it's too unrealistic. I'm almost sure there's more people out there who want this game, but I'm not sure they know they want this game. Many if not most of the guys playing back then have long since decided that RPG today means wander around aimlessly listening to voice acting, or you play an MMO. If I didn't get a new game recommended by the codex once in a blue moon I'd have long since stopped trying RPGs altogether, just as I have with adventure games. Adventure games almost never get made, and they are never good enough for me to care when they do.

Without putting it as harshly as Infinitron:
1. You're really projecting too much here. Just because you don't know them that doesn't mean nobody else did. Same with just because Fargo means something to you, doesn't mean he means something to others.
2. Without speculating on the actual number of fans for the respective genres, I think it's quite safe to say that the adventure crowd is far more homogene in their likes and dislikes. If you have 20 people wanting a Ceasar's Salad and 100 people wanting meat, you'll probably get 20 orders of Ceasar's salad but less than 20 orders for the various different meat dishes.I also highly doubt that many of the Slyrm-lovers would be interested in Wasteland 2 the way Fargo wants to make it. Just look at the majority of the non-codex Fallout1/2 vs Fallout3 comments. Perhaps 1 out of 100 FO3 players went, played the originals and liked them.
3. Trying to compare old budgets to new budgets is not only pointless because of inflation. Talent, tools, experience, etc also influence the final budget. Budgets for games that seem similar in quality can differ wildly today, too (Risen, DA:O, Slyrm, TW2, DKS, etc.). And VO and similarly superfluous stuff eats a lot of the budgets (check the recent Swen Vernicke interviews(Larian)).
4. Making people who would be interested in your product aware of it has always been a problem. That's why we have shitty advertising.

 

[Drowed]

Almost all the guys who played skyrim would like a Wasteland with updated graphics, but it's a lot quicker to make something like skyrim and it translates to a console well.

What? No way! Where does this come from? It's pretty much the opposite!

The only way fans of Skyrim (speaking here of the majority of them) would be interested in a project like Wasteland is if it is transformed into a first-person game with real-time combat. A game with isometric view (or similar), where you must control each member of your group/squad individually? It's intolerable. This is no secret, just see the number of people who criticized the camera *even* in Diablo 3. Or see the speech that most players do when someone talks about turn-based games (that aren't JRPGs) in any other site besides this one.

 

[Brother None]

Fargo's got little name-value, yeah, compare to DF folk. Though every Interplay game did open with "Brian Fargo presents", so it's kind of seared into our brains, heh.

That's why I think it's a good idea, even if only from a marketing perspective, to add people like Mark Morgan, bring up Jason Anderson's work a lot, and of course name-drop Fallout like crazy.

Perhaps 1 out of 100 FO3 players went, played the originals and liked them.

Well, that'd pretty much be enough, though.

 

[Shannow]

Yep, but the number is pulled from my ass
Could just as well been 1 out of 10000 or 1 out of 50 *shrug*
The point wasn't that I think W2 will fail, the point was that I strongly doubt that "almost all" people who liked Slyrm would also like W2.

 

[Brother None]

'course. But ironically, Fallout's popularity is a huge boon for marketing this project.

 

[Omicron]

Perhaps 1 out of 100 FO3 players went, played the originals and liked them.

I did.

 

[villain of the story]

Aren't you a unique snowflake. How old are you? Where do you live? Post your picture in the pictures thread.

 

[Temaperacl]

Hey by the way while we're at it, I think I recall reading that the original Wasteland had permadeath, is this true? I know that you can reload from the start of a dungeon, but can you always do it or are your saves affected by something else?

Since I didn't see any answer to your question - yes, it is true (At least for a single character). There were two main mechanics at play:

First is the health system - once a party member ran out of HP, they would enter one of several states. For light damage, they would become UNConcious. In this state, you get better over time, so will wake up after you reached 1HP. Of course, if all of your party members were UNC at the same time, you were probably in combat and would still be in combat when someone reached 1. Which sometimes resulted in battles, especially early on (I'm thinking Agricultural station) which were rounds of getting in 1-2 hits followed by being knocked UNC again. If the damage was more severe, you would become SERiously injured. In this case (and all later cases), you got worse over time, becoming CRiTically wounded, MoRTally wounded, and COMatose (I think in that order, but I'm not positive). Characters could try to use the medic skill (if they had it) to improve the condition of the injured character. If the injured character is not treated in time, they will end up dead. At this point, pretty much all you can do is go through their pockets and look for loose change.

The second aspect is how the game saved (At least on the PC) - You could save manually and every time you entered a new map, the game would automatically save. There was only 1 save, so if you saved or changed maps after a character died or became injured without being able to get to a doctor or have a medic operational in your team, you've basically lost those team members.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Are we going to read part 2 before the summer?

 

[Infinitron]

Do you really think that day of the tentacle made more sales than wasteland? Well, I find that highly doubtful. Maybe someone can look some facts up here but in fact since fallout sold something like 250k copies I am not sure it outsold it.

Thing is, if you look at individual games, you're not seeing the full story. The thing about the adventure games of the early 90's is that there were tons of them. Sierra released a whole bunch of games each year.

Adventure games really were a big deal. Before 3D shooters became prominent, they were also the genre that was pushing technology forward the most. Cutscenes, voice acting. Sierra pioneered the use of motion capture in computer games.

The lengendariness of guys like Carmack and Warren Specter blows most everyone else out of the water, and other FPS games. Then guys like sid meier and the sims guy, then way down that list is anyone who made RPGs. Then even further down that list is anyone who made adventure games. Not much room for dispute there,

Maybe, but what matters here is who's most legendary among people who are aware of and willing to donate money to Kickstarter projects.

 

[Infinitron]

For the record, I honestly don't know whether the Wasteland 2 Kickstarter project will succeed or fail.

I just get the feeling that the RPGs of yore, overall, were simply not as memorable as the adventure games of the same period. Not that they were bad - just not as memorable. Maybe it's because they didn't have that humor and charm that sticks with you for the rest of your life.

 

[MisterStone]

We kin haz part 2 nao?

 

[felipepepe]

I don't need to justify which is a bigger market, it's simply a fact that I am right. Adventure games have always been a niche, and now it's a virtually dead niche. But this might work more to their advantage since there's fewer games to choose from.

Do you really think that day of the tentacle made more sales than wasteland? Well, I find that highly doubtful. Maybe someone can look some facts up here but in fact since fallout sold something like 250k copies I am not sure even it outsold WL.

Yeah, except that you are wrong. Full Throttle sold over 1,000,000, for instance.

Also, adventure games still have dozens of games being released every year, their niche is way more alive than ours. Just look at this, they have 54 adventure games to be released in 2012, probably more than we had in the last 5 years, and that's counting all the Action-RPGs, hybrids, indie roguelikes and cheap-made dungeoncrawlers.

No matter how you look, Tim Schafner has more fame, a better recent portfolio of games, lures a larger audience and his game is more likely to please all the fans. Still, I will plead the highest tier I can on Fargo's project, because is something I really believe in.

 

[asper]

Hardcore RPG forum: rpgcodex.com - 9,849 members

Hardcore adventure forum: adventuregamers.com - 41,659 members

They even have their own shop on their site. Professional news, interviews, previews. The userbase is educated and sports monocle tastes, and is four times bigger than that of the Codex.

Anyway, this is not saying the Fargo kickstarter will fail. The only way we will know is by seeing how it plays out.

 

[St. Toxic]

Hardcore RPG forum: rpgcodex.com - 9,849 members

Hardcore adventure forum: adventuregamers.com - 41,659 members

A "hardcore adventure gamer", when compared to the typical monocled crpg enthusiast, looks like a shriveled up grandmother standing next to a gang of bikers. Never mind that the actual adventure genre is, or at least has been, casual tripe for longer than golden age crpg's have existed.

 

[Infinitron]

How many members on the Watch?

EDIT: Hey, they have less than us?

 

[curry]

I think RPGWatch should just accept Codex's superiority and assimilate. I don't even get why that website exists, it has no purpose and no quality.

 

[felipepepe]

Knotanalt, most of your arguments are based on "I didn't hear, I didn't know, I didn't care".

You may have not enjoyed anything by Schafer since Grim Fandango, but lot's of people enjoyed Psychonauts and Brütal Legend, they are famous games that have lot's of fans, and so are his older games. Monkey Island was even remade in HD some time ago, and Day of the Tentacle is as classic as Fallout 1. But what is Fargo last great game? InXile has been around for 10 years and didn't release a single good game that gamers can relate too. And most gamers now think of Bethesda when talking about Fallout, so that won't work either.

And let's not forget, Tim Schafer has a great charisma. The guy is like the Jack Black of gaming, you watch his video and you wanna take part in whatever he is doing, he looks as fun as his games are. Definetly his video played a great part in getting all that money, and we know that Fargo is more of a regular guy and is going to have to work really hard just to get half the attencion (especially from the DDA generation) that the funny fat guy playing drums got.

We know that he is in the right path, doing interviews with some great declarations, going out for the old fans, getting Mark Morgan on the team and all that, but he definetly is in a way harder position than Schafer. I also believe that he definetly will get more than 1 million, but it will take a lot of work to get close to 2 million. I think that he will focus on the die-hard fans he/RPGs has, so we will see less donators, but higher values, especially since most Wasteland players should have a job by now.

 

[Brother None]

Less donators with a higher average seems a good bet to me. And honestly, it's not a competition for Wasteland 2's Kickstarter to beat Double Fine Adventure's. If it beats a million, I'll be ecstatic. Like DF, any added money will primarily go to increase in graphics/VO, rather than expanding gameplay (it's very hard to expand gameplay in a good open-world RPG without costs spiraling out of control).

 

[felipepepe]

It's not about being a competition, but the fact that Fargo's project needs more money AND is less atractive to the average gamer. Until Fargo starts the project, we can only estimate how much he will need, and how much he will actually get. The fun thing is to imagine he is also doing the same thing, comparing himself with Schafer and thinking how much he will raise, and what is at stake...must be one of the most challenging/interesting moments he ever faced as a producer.

 

[curry]

It's not about being a competition, but the fact that Fargo's project needs more money AND is less atractive to the average gamer. Until Fargo starts the project, we can only estimate how much he will need, and how much he will actually get. The fun thing is to imagine he is also doing the same thing, comparing himself with Shafner and thinking how much he will raise, and what is at stake...must be one of the most challenging/interesting moments he ever faced as a producer.

What an embarrassment it must be if he fails to raise enough money to make the game, though. And those who donated will be seriously butthurt.

 

[Infinitron]

Schafer, not Schafner. Means "Shepherd" in German.

Hmm.

 

[Spectacle]

What an embarrassment it must be if he fails to raise enough money to make the game, though. And those who donated will be seriously butthurt.

That's the point of kickstarter though, if a project doesn't raise enough money then none of the pledgers are charged, an effective anti-butthurt feature. You can of course intentionally set the goal at less money than than you realstically think you actually need, but that's borderline if not outright fraud.

Running out of money before the project is finished due to overrunning the budget is of course a real risk in any software project, but that can happen even if they raise 10X as much money as the goal. Probably even more likely, since getting lots of money will of course make them want to make a more ambitious game, and thus more likely to fail.