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Which Oblivion Dev Lied The Most?

franc kaos

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Top Hat said:
Besides, shouldn't the real question be "Which of Bethesda's developers told the truth?"

That would make for a short thread, until it derailed into the mechanics of creating the perfect RPG or who's the bitch, Todd or Pete. A better question:
Which dev was closest to the truth? Todd - for his 'Oblivion is all about riding horses, killing things.'

Change the comma after horses into a semicolon, put an 'and' in and you've got 90% of Oblivions gameplay right there. The rest would be 5% dialogue, 2% herb gathering, 1% of new books, 1% watching the RAI malfunction and 1% main quest with all it's 'political intrique'.
 

DarkUnderlord

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Lumpy said:
DarkUnderlord said:
Lumpy said:
Just glad here at Bethesda we are our own publisher and developer and have free reign to make what we want."
What he's saying is that Bethesda publishes their own games. Which is completly true.
No, it ain't. 2K Games published Oblivion.

Lie + 1
Wrong. They co-published it, mostly in Europe.
... and Australia and the rest of the world and even North America on both PC and console. Look for the little "2k Games" logo on the front of your copy.

Lumpy said:
Also, they didn't finance Oblivion in any way, so it was a completly independent project.
Yes, 2k Games decided to publish it completely for free. In fact, no money changed hands what-so-ever. Scouts honour.

Lumpy said:
Besides, don't most games get published in Europe and America by different companies?
Your point? You just said "Bethesda publish their own games". Wouldn't it mean that if someone else was involved in the publishing part, that that little bit would be a lie?

Lumpy said:
DarkUnderlord said:
So, Oblivion according to Lumpy:
  • Truth Told = 9
    Bad Predictions = 1
    Subjective Statements = 1
    Exaggerations = 1
    Over Enthusiasm = 2
    Opinions = 3
    Unsure = 2
    Changed minds = 6
    Lies = 11
According to you, rather, since you modified some of them.
Seeing as you got about two things completely wrong and there were about five "I dun geddit", I had to. If you like, change some of the lies to a bunch of "I don't get it" and a handful of "Lumpy Completely Misinterpreted It".

Lumpy said:
And what is this list supposed to mean anyway? It doesn't make much sense.
That's because what you're saying doesn't make much sense.

Lumpy said:
And a Bethesda meeting according to the Codex...
No, more outlining the point that a lot of what Bethesda were saying was PR bullshit and didn't make it into the game. That's the point here. Look at what the developers say and ask yourself "did that make it into the game?" Out of that list of quotes only 9 out of 36 did. That means 75% of what we were told was going to be in Oblivion didn't make it in either because the developers outright lied or according to you "changed their minds" or were "just a little over-enthusiastic" about it. 75% of what people were told was going to be in the game simply wasn't there. That's the point.

Lumpy said:
In my opinion, 'telling the truth' means saying what you think is true, and 'lying' means saying what you know isn't true.
It's a good thing the dictionary disagrees with you:
1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3. an inaccurate or false statement.
 

Twinfalls

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Nice post, Lumpy, and you got a good reply from MrHappy1991:

I really have know idea for the poll options, so I'm not going to bother trying to firgure them out. But the lack of politics/background conflict/complex characters etc. came as a huge suprise to, as A) they had been one of the series greatest strengths and B ) the death of the Emperor seemed perfect for ractions vying for power, and you choosing one that suited you, and bringing it to the top and C ) that quote.

Both Morrowind and Daggerfall had great worlds. They achieved this in different ways, but they both worked for me. Daggerfall excellent world structure. The kingdom was broken into politically charged provinces/areas supporting different powers and factions that you could manipulate. There were seats of power and regional factions and political intrigue and backstabbing among tons of interesting characters. The plot was twisting and did have choices, and every one was self serving, but no one was really good or evil. Seasons passed, towns and religions celebrated holidays, and the music was amazing smile.gif Morrowind did it differently. It's strength was faction conflict. Every faction was to some degree allied or against several other factions, and you could choose the one you wanted to succeed (you couldnt ally factions, but you could in at least one case turn them against eachother, or wipe out another factions leaders as there were no unkillable characters). Plus, the plot was full of lore and mysteries (like the dwemer, which were brilliant), religions being uprooted, and the natives conflicting with the imperials. I was expecting some combination of these in Oblivion (as it was claimed to be bringing back some stuff from Daggerfall), and expanding that into an even more indepth system of faction relations and maybe a dynamic world.

Unfortunately, Oblivion lost most of that. The factions you could join or influence were non-political and didnt really interact. There was no heirarchy to the religion (and what is up with unkillable characters? Arrg). Most of the lore was only 2 dimensional, and many characters were black and white in terms of morality. Their was little background conflict. The world seemed to be missing a backbone and background, which was always, for me, the greatest strength of the series.
 

Ladonna

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Is it me or are the fans vanishing? They seem to be losing determination when it comes to defending the prescious.

Why did the wonderful AI 'get cut'??? Is there a sane explanation given as to why this brilliant, never seen before, AI was cut out of the game? :lol:
 

Lumpy

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It was breaking the game! The NPCs were so smart, they were killing each other and stuff. That's why the devs didn't allow them to read books often and buy things at shops.
(I wonder who could possibly consider NPCs starting civil wars because of deer an example of groundbreaking Artificial Intelligence)
 

Texas Red

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Lumpy said:
It was breaking the game! The NPCs were so smart, they were killing each other and stuff. That's why the devs didn't allow them to read books often and buy things at shops.
(I wonder who could possibly consider NPCs starting civil wars because of deer an example of groundbreaking Artificial Intelligence)

Then they should have announced so. I visit RPG sites daily and never heard anything regarding the nerfing of AI. Maybe I missed it but so did a lot of other people. After Oblivion was released, the forums were exploding because people only then realized that the AI was not what was promised and only then did we learn about the game-breaking scaling.
 

Top Hat

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They nerfed the AI because it ended up being smarter than Todd Howard. Even the AI read books occasionally...
 

psycojester

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The problem was the AI was to good.

Half the hunters were programmed to believe in an anarcho-capitalist system of government with minimal government checks and balances on the deer meat industry. While the other half were programmed to believe in a communist system by which hunters were randomly assigned to gather deer meat for the good of the whole community.

These 2 groups naturally fell out with each other and the player encounters the end result of a long and passionate socio-political debate
 
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Lumpy said:
That list of quotes was a list of quotes of things that weren't in the game, out of the hundreds of quotes on www.waiting4oblivion.com , out of which most are true.
Also, I made another thread on ESF:
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=563961

This is what happens when you make a good non biased poll in ESF, at about page 3, generic Xbox users will start whining how bad Morrowind was because his khajiit/argonian couldn't wear boots or helmets.

Blehh...
 

DarkUnderlord

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Lumpy said:
OUCH. For future benefit for when the thread is deleted:

The diamond
Lie [ 48 ] ** [40.00%]
Over-estimation [ 44 ] ** [36.67%]
Misunderstanding [ 2 ] ** [1.67%]
Feature that existed yet got cut [ 14 ] ** [11.67%]
Truth [ 6 ] ** [5.00%]
Other [ 1 ] ** [0.83%]
I don't know [ 5 ] ** [4.17%]

The bookseller
Lie [ 62 ] ** [51.67%]
Misrepresentation [ 20 ] ** [16.67%]
Feature that existed yet got cut [ 27 ] ** [22.50%]
Truth [ 1 ] ** [0.83%]
Other [ 6 ] ** [5.00%]
I don't know [ 4 ] ** [3.33%]

The politics
Lie [ 72 ] ** [60.00%]
Over-estimation [ 22 ] ** [18.33%]
Misunderstanding [ 4 ] ** [3.33%]
Feature that existed yet got cut [ 14 ] ** [11.67%]
Truth [ 2 ] ** [1.67%]
Other [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
I don't know [ 6 ] ** [5.00%]

What this thread is about - there have been several developer statements which have turned out to be false. Many were probably innocent mistakes, but there are a few which don't seem so innocent. Here are some of them:

1. The diamond:
QUOTE(Todd Howard)
It's all of that. When you first play the game, [Radiant AI] is really just for show. It makes the world believable and entertaining, and I think that's important. But as you play, you start to figure out what you can do with these NPCs, and how you can influence their behavior, and when doing a quest, it really comes into play. A simple "get the diamond from that guy... quest can be done in hundreds of ways now. Is he sleeping? When is he home? Does he take the diamond to work with him? Does he like me? Can he sell it? Should I kill him? Pick his pocket? Steal his food and see if he sells the diamond to eat? That's just some off the top of my head.

In the end, did that turn out to be true? Not really. In such a quest, you could steal it from him or kill him for it, but those options are present in any RPG. Could you steal his food to make him sell the diamond? Could you persuade him to sell it to you? No. Then, one has to wonder, how could Todd be wrong in such a way?

2. The bookseller:
Or chapter five of the well known E3 Video. You enter a bookstore, talk to the bookseller, persuade her with a nifty persuasion mini-game, so she invites you upstairs with her. There you can see her very active and non-scripted schedule, which includes practicing marksman and using a marksman potion when she notices that her skill is bad, reading, eating, feeding her dog, going to bed, and paralising and burning her dog because it annoys her with its barking. All of that completly unscripted.
Now, if that was all unscripted, how come in the final version, all NPC actions must be scripted? I'm not a modder, but from what I've seen in the CS, there's no "Do what you feel like doing RAI instruction. You have to tell the NPCs to eat, sleep, read books, use items, etc. yourself. Did the bookseller actually realize that she wasn't good at marksman, so she drank that potion? Or was she actually scripted to do it? Was she actually annoyed by the dog, or was it a scripted sequence of events? How about the inviting upstairs? That's never happened to me in Oblivion.

3. The politics:
QUOTE(Gavin Carter)

The political landscape of the game world is highly fractured following the emperor’s assassination, and you will have to be cautious of the motives of those who would befriend you.

I have never noticed any form of politics whatsoever in the game. The lords of this politically fractures province would give you quests, not to assassinate a rival, to get them more power, or to defend them from a rival lord. Rather, they had you close Oblivion gates, find missing paintings, and explore lost ruins. Nobody had any motives, everyone told the truth. You could do the quests for all the nobles without any of them interfering with the others.
I'd say lie for all of those. For the diamond, they knew their AI wouldn't do that. At best I could say it was over-enthusiasm. For the bookseller though, they portrayed that as people dynamicaly using potions and all sorts of shit when in reality, she'd been scripted to use the potion, to set the dog on fire and so on. Likewise the politics. Whatever they may have been planning, they simply didn't pull it off. So either they're incredibly naive about what they can accomplish, they spoke too soon (which is something Bethesda keep saying they don't do. They reveal information "when we're ready to and not before") or they're over-hyping the crap out of it and lying through their teeth.
 

Twinfalls

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Ha ha, more delusion and further bethesda developer bullshit revealed:

Talaran the fanboy with moderator powahz said:
Where did you find the statement that all npc actions have to be scripted? Not being sarcastic, I'm curious.

The bookseller was apparently set up for the demo; not necessarily scripted, but they set up a special situation run-through for the demo to show off the AI. Things changed from the demo to the game. Anyone notice that Todd's character had 10,000 health and magicka? Show off the combat, the outdoors, the creatures, the magic, the npcs, everything in the game, in 20 minutes. Think they maybe set the ai to extremely short timing cycles to get as much/as many actions in as possible?

QUOTE
The video is the same thing we showed at E3. It's pieces & sections of existing game content and a lot of stuff made specifically for the E3 demo (for example, the entire sequence inside the bookstore -- including all of the dialogue -- was made for E3 in order to demonstrate some of the things you can do with RAI.) The player character was beefed up, and the enemies seriously nerfed (to the point of one or two hits to kill) for the demo.

The forests and terrain (including the beloved soil erosion) are pre-generated in the editor and are then the same for everyone every time you play the game.

Lots of stuff has been heavily tweaked (and in some cases completely redone) since the video was made, and we continue to optimize and improve. We have a lot of people playtesting the game now (internally) and have been adjusting gameplay based on their feedback.


QUOTE
As far as the bookseller sequence. No, the entire thing was not scripted -- not in the sense that it represents a designer typing in hundreds of lines of script code. In the sense that it's a sequence of events that happen in a particular order, you might consider it scripted, but the way you set up those events, and how the actors accomplish them, is not scripted.

For example, the target practice. All she's told to start practicing (basically) is "fire a certain number of arrows at this target from this location." That's it. There's a bow in the room, so she automatically goes to get it first. There's also a quiver in the room, so she goes to get that. She then equips the items, walks over to the firing point, and shoots a few arrows. The arrows miss the target not because she has been scripted to shoot at points away from the target, but because her marksman skill is low.

That's the difference. She's given a basic goal, and figures out how to accomplish it based on what she has available to her and her stats.

The sequence is a set of examples of the kinds of things you can do with RAI -- including grouping a sequence of AI packages together to produce a tight, deterministic sequence of events.


QUOTE
On the "demo dog"

The dog wasn't scripted. In fact there were several times that when the demo was run that the dog decided to just stand around for a few seconds instead of heading for the food. Eventually the temptation of the meat was too much for it and it ate.

Actually the demo looks scripted, but after watching it a number of times, you start to see differences that occur each time. But Todd probably practiced giving the demo a hundred times before E3 so it would go off smoothly. Even little things like tossing pumpkins on a trip wire to trigger a trap required skill. I saw several people play through the demo and mess that section up and had to use an arrow from the bow to to trigger the trap instead.


Why the AI may have been toned down:

QUOTE
Questions about Radiant AI: Okay, here's the thing with Radiant AI... If you ask, "Can the NPCs do this? Or can they do that?" They answer is yes, with RAI, they can do a ton of stuff. But the player is unlikely to see some of it for a variety of reasons. For example, if the player hits an NPC with a spell and they get poisoned, would the NPC try to purchase a cure posion potion? Well, no, not likely, because he's going to be too busy trying to kill the player, and besides, the poison probably won't last that long.

And, in some cases, we the developers have had to consciously tone down the types of behavior they carry out. Again, why? Because sometimes, the AI is so goddamned smart and determined it screws up our quests! Seriously, sometimes it's gotten so weird it's like dealing with a holodeck that's gone sentient. Imagine playing the Sims, and your Sims have a penchant for murder and theft. So a lot of the time this stuff is funny, and amazing, and emergent, and it's awesome when it happens. Other times, it's so unexpected, it breaks stuff. Designers need a certain amount of control over the scenarios they create, and things can go haywire when NPCs have a mind of their own.

Funny example: In one Dark Brotherhood quest, you can meet up with this shady merchant who sells skooma. During testing, the NPC would be dead when the player got to him. Why? NPCs from the local skooma den were trying to get their fix, didn't have any skooma, and were killing the merchant to get it!
 

Jim Kata

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psycojester said:
The problem was the AI was to good.

Half the hunters were programmed to believe in an anarcho-capitalist system of government with minimal government checks and balances on the deer meat industry. While the other half were programmed to believe in a communist system by which hunters were randomly assigned to gather deer meat for the good of the whole community.

These 2 groups naturally fell out with each other and the player encounters the end result of a long and passionate socio-political debate

Power comes from a mandate of the people, not some farcical aquatic ceremony!
 

ixg

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Because sometimes, the AI is so goddamned smart...

Funny example: In one Dark Brotherhood quest, you can meet up with this shady merchant who sells skooma. During testing, the NPC would be dead when the player got to him. Why? NPCs from the local skooma den were trying to get their fix, didn't have any skooma, and were killing the merchant to get it!


A bit of a contradiction here, no? Sounds pretty retarded to kill the skooma merchant; now where will these "addicts" get their skooma?
 

Lumpy

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OMG, the addicts killed the skooma vendor.
Rather that happening in some lost sewer at a time when I'm extremely likely not to be around, I'd rather see people buying things from the various shops in the towns, rather than walking around aimlessly all the time.
 

Inziladun

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After seeing countless polls like this on the ESForums, I think I can safely assume that people who are disappointed with Oblivion arn't a vocal minority. Sadly most of these people think Morrowind was the best thing since sliced bread, but still, an enemy of Oblivion is an ally of me.

Oh yeah... I forgot... the people who like the game are all too busy playing it. (Or with Xbox 360 users, too stupid to figure out how to log onto the internet)
 

Lumpy

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Although you can like the game and still notice the bullshit in those lies.
 

suibhne

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psycojester said:
The problem was the AI was to good.

Half the hunters were programmed to believe in an anarcho-capitalist system of government with minimal government checks and balances on the deer meat industry. While the other half were programmed to believe in a communist system by which hunters were randomly assigned to gather deer meat for the good of the whole community.

These 2 groups naturally fell out with each other and the player encounters the end result of a long and passionate socio-political debate

I think this is my new favorite post, in the middle of my favorite thread EVAR.

Life sometimes offers too much satisfaction to bear.
 

Mr Happy

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http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?&showtopic=563961
Unsuprisingly, nobody even bothered to try to defend the "no politics" part.

Twinfalls said:
Nice post, Lumpy, and you got a good reply from MrHappy1991:

Peace
 

psycojester

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Again the "no politics" is part of Brilliant AI.

The NPC's of the land are well aware of current events, they know if they discuss politics or display political symbols they'll be deleted by summer.
 

Sovy Kurosei

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summer said:
Do not make threads concerning other members. Much less use an auto censor bypass in the topic title. :)

The topic is... said:
The Official Fan-boy Awards, get out and vote!

Unless the topic change I can't spot what should have been censored. Can you?
 

OccupatedVoid

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Sovy Kurosei said:
summer said:
Do not make threads concerning other members. Much less use an auto censor bypass in the topic title. :)

The topic is... said:
The Official Fan-boy Awards, get out and vote!

Unless the topic change I can't spot what should have been censored. Can you?

fanboy is censored and replaced with 'a devoted elderscrolls fan'.
 

franc kaos

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About the AI, couldn't they just add a line in the radiant scripts that says members of the same faction (ie guards villagers etc), do not kill each other, and if a guard apprehends a villager for stealing, they get arrested for three days.

The NPCs would only steal if their responsibility was below 30, so they could also have added more checkpoints (ie an NPC would only murder if their responsibility was below 10, report a crime if above 50 etc etc etc).

I'm no programmer, but isn't that what all those else/if statements are for? Surely if the Radiant AI was producing grossly unexpected results it means it was coded incorrectly - or am I missing something obvious?
 

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