Which Oblivion Dev Lied The Most?

[Lord Chambers]

Lumpy is just trolling and presenting one-sided posts. Please lock him up moderators.

Oh, come on he's providing some context against the rather one-sided codex oblivion-hate orgy.

I know, that's why it's so absurd for me to suggest that using Summer's language. It was a joke.

The Devs did not lie, they told the truth as they knew it, just because you do not see things their was does not make it lies.

And this thread is not but trolling, and one sided look at things.
And you want feed back from them.

 

[obediah]

Lumpy is just trolling and presenting one-sided posts. Please lock him up moderators.

Oh, come on he's providing some context against the rather one-sided codex oblivion-hate orgy.

I know, that's why it's so absurd for me to suggest that using Summer's language. It was a joke.

The Devs did not lie, they told the truth as they knew it, just because you do not see things their was does not make it lies.

And this thread is not but trolling, and one sided look at things.
And you want feed back from them.

Ah, I've led a Summer-free life, so I didn't get the joke.

Carry on.

 

[elander_]

Its possible that people like MSFD didn't realy know much about how quests would play, but making generalized statements about this, giving false hopes to people without knowing what you are talking about is dishonest or at least treating fans like if you thing they're a bunch of idiots you can manipulate with 5 year old lies. I hope someone keeps this list for Fallout 3. They better spit what we want to know about the game in detail before they sell it.

 

[Mr Happy]

As for those quotes, who knows. The quote that always got me though was

The political landscape of the game world is highly fractured following the emperor’s assassination, and you will have to be cautious of the motives of those who would befriend you.

Which would make sense, especially because the political conflict in TES has always been one of its greatest strengths. But in Oblivion? Who?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

That could be why Ken Rolston quit... Though, he had to be making a lot of money.

Ken Rolston kicks ass. Anyone that worked on PARANOIA has to have a something going for him.

 

[Nog Robbin]

As for those quotes, who knows. The quote that always got me though was

The political landscape of the game world is highly fractured following the emperor’s assassination, and you will have to be cautious of the motives of those who would befriend you.

Which would make sense, especially because the political conflict in TES has always been one of its greatest strengths. But in Oblivion? Who?

There's political intrigue in Oblivion? :shock:

 

[hiciacit]

Haha. Comedy gold!

 

[Lumpy]

Again, there are big lies. The politics one and the diamond one being the dirtiest.

There are points where it looks like they changed their mind. I say that because all of those things would have not been hard to implement, and they wouldn't have any reason to lie about them. Programming the "broken weapons fall to the ground" feature would have probably taken a programmer one or two hours, bug-testing included. Thus, the reason why it wasn't implemented is most likely because they decided it wouldn't improve gameplay. Maybe they thought it would be annoying for the player to pick up all his broken stuff after a fight.

And about exaggeration. This would be a lie "Oblivion has the best dialogue ever in any RPG". There's no way any designer could believe that. On the other hand, if someone says "Oblivion has better dialogue than Morrowind", you can't know that he is lying. He might be, but he probably isn't. After all, they took several decisions based on Morrowind to make the dialogue better. Even if those decisions weren't right, they obviously thinked otherwise, or they wouldn't have taken them. And yes, better for the casual gamer still counts as 'better'.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

There are points where it looks like they changed their mind. I say that because all of those things would have not been hard to implement, and they wouldn't have any reason to lie about them.

You mean no reason apart from hyping the game? And if all these things were so easy to implement, where are my spears and crossbows? If you'll recall, they were removed because "animashun is teh hard!"

Yes, some things that were present in Morrowind are not in Oblivion -- but a lot more has been added than removed

So what, they added in lots more content and then changed their mind and removed it all? That's about the only way that's truthful.

[Kathode] "All screenshots we've released are 100% in game showing stuff we've already got implemented. We haven't done any special poses or anything like that, with the exception of magazine covers."
Which is true.

True + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "I'm sorry, but what part of "without losing our hardcore rpg fans" don't you understand?"
Wrong prediction.

Bad Prediction + 1

[Slateman] "Each of the faction lines in this game have plots and quests to much greater depth over MW. Quality, not quantity."
Factions do have storylines, rather than being a random succession of quests.

True + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "I know you don't want to hear it, but you're just going to have to trust us that the dialogue is better than Morrowind's."
Depends on which way you look at it. Unlike Morrowind, NPCs actually say unique things most of the time. And it's all voice acted.

Subjective + 1

[Todd] "As you play, you start to figure out what you can do with these NPCs, and how you can influence their behavior, and when doing a quest, it really comes into play. A simple 'get the diamond from that guy...' quest can be done in hundreds of ways now."
Big lie. But then again, this is Todd.

Lie + 1

[VSXX] "We have everything from mice to moles to crickets. The most fearsome you have ever seen even! You thought sleeping at night with a singing cricket outside your window was bad. You wait till you meet the one that plays a 14 piece drum set outside your window."
It did have a large variety of monsters, larger than Morrowind, I think.

No crickets that I've seen though. Certainly no big chirpers playing drums outside my window.

Lie + 1

[Pete] "Honestly, and this is just my opinion, I think the hardcore RPG guys are going to love what we have in store for them in Oblivion. The depth, the level of polish...it crushes Morrowind. That doesn't mean that other people won't want to buy it and play it because it's a beautiful game that has fun combat and cool quests. We'll make enough copies for everyone."
Over-enthusiasm combined with PR bullshit. Not dirty lying though.

Over Enthusiasm + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "You'll be reading LOTS of stuff. All of the quest lines are much more in depth, challenging and interesting. And there's a heck of a lot more to the game than just the guilds and the main quest. Lots and lots of other things to do that haven't been mentioned. Stats play a huge, huge role. Class actually has meaning this time. The game is better balanced. You have more rewards for advancement besides just getting better at things. The dungeons are better designed, the NPCs are more interesting, the dialogue is better written.

If you think this is a simple, dumbed down hack & slash, you couldn't be more wrong."
The NPCs are more interesting than Morrowind (although that isn't really a huge achievement). Stats play an important role. Some quests are better written, although they involved too much combat. Again, not really a lie.

Too much combat = hack 'n slash.

Lie + 1

[BlueDev] "For Oblivion, there's a very concious effort to avoid too much random information spewing by NPCs. Fear not--there's still the same amount of info to be found in the game. In fact, the NPCs probably have more than ever to say; it just makes more sense for them to say it."
Exaggeration.

Exaggeration + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Oblivion is infinitely superior to Morrowind in every conceivable way."
Just his personal opinion.

Opinion + 1

[MattRyan] "So for all of you thinking that it would be neat to steal something, and then take off on your horse....guess what? An NPC can do the same dirty trick to you as well. "
This is a lie, indeed.

Lie + 1

[Todd] "The clothing you wear does affect certain NPC's, but not in a big way, it’s subtle."
And it doesn't? I think clothing affects NPC disposition.

True + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Broken shields and weapons are automatically dropped and they clatter to the ground using Havok physics. Broken armor stays on, but is ineffective and you'll know if you're wearing broken armor or not."
They probably just changed their mind. After all, it wouldn't have been really hard to implement.

Changed mind + 1

[Slateman] "While I cannot go into detail, rest assured that even players who max out a bunch of skills will discover challenges in this game. We didn't leave you guys out "
I don't really know what he's talking about.

Players who max out skills don't get challenged.

Lie + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Just because you can attempt to bribe someone does not mean they'll automatically accept it."
Changed their mind.

Changed mind + 1

[MattRyan] "We are gamers. We have given tons of time toward the balance of gameplay. Asside from the designers, artists, programmers, and producers.... our staff of QA testers are extremely good at exploiting our game systems and looking for loopholes in gameplay, or shortfalls in fun vs. realism.

In conclusion, to completely cut out any adjustment to difficulty in enemies would not be fun, just as making all creatures off-set to your level would not be fun."
So... which part of this is a lie?

The last part where they "cut out any adjustment to difficulty".

Lie + 1

[Slateman] "Yep. To second MSFD, we don't auto-level exactly to your level. We have all sorts of adjustments available. If we didn't the game would be boring "
Again, I suppose they decided to change that later on.

Changed mind + 1

[MattRyan] "If everything was leveled then you'd have no fear of anything in the game ('I can beat everything!') We plan on scaring the heck out of the player by higher level creatures."
As above.

Changed mind + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "You're walking through a seedy part of a town in Western Cyrodiil. People mill about, some engaged in conversation, others minding their own business, out on their own errands. Suddenly, an ugly man decides he doesn't like you. Maybe he's drunk, maybe he's just a bully, maybe he's just showing off in front of his friends -- but for whatever reason, he has taken your measure and decided he can best you.

He comes charging at you, with a nasty looking mace in his hand and a look of hatred on his face. Onlookers move back to make room for what should be an entertaining fight.

Quickly drawing your sword and shield, you wheel around to face him. He's upon you pretty quickly though, and you barely have time to raise your shield (hold right mouse button) before his first blow thunders down upon you.

But you block well, and as he recoils from the collision, you quickly perform left & right slashes with your sword (left click, pause, left click). The bully realizes this isn't going to be easy.

He backs off a bit, and starts dodging around you. First to the left, then to the right. You maneuver to keep him in view, looking for an opening. Suddenly he steps back, raises his mace in both hands, and steps forward, bringing the mace towards your head in a crushing blow!

But you're quick -- you step to the side as he attacks. As he passes by, you execute a spinning maneuver and slash him in the side (hold left mouse button and left maneuver key). The hit is solid, and your foe staggers from the blow.

But it's not over yet. The bully swings his mace wildly -- his first swing misses, but the next one connects for a blow that sends you staggering. Pressing his advantage, the bully bears down on you with a power attack of his own. OUCH. This isn't going well. You take a glance at your health meter, it's getting a bit low. You quickly back up out of the bully's reach and raise your shield (hold right mouse button).

He's hurting, too. You circle each other for a time, looking for an opening, trying to recover some fatigue. Finally the bully charges forward with a devastating overhead blow, perhaps hoping to break your shield. But the shield holds and the recoil send him staggering back. This is your chance! You perform a mighty forward power attack (hold the left mouse button, press forward) and connect solidly. The blow staggers your foe once again, and you perform 3 slashing attacks in rapid succession (left mouse button, pause, left mouse button, pause, left mouse button), and finally the bully collapses to the ground, defeated.

The crowd disperses, going back to their own business."
I suppose this is just enthusiasm. There aren't any clear lies in there.

Over Enthusiasm + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "We happen to think that console gamers are smarter than that, and the success of Morrowind on Xbox proves that console gamers actually ARE interested in games with MORE depth and complexity than some people seem to think they are."
What is the lie?

Morrowind is not deep or complex.

Lie + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "I absolutely guarantee that they'll be able to make mods that will completely blow away anything we saw for Morrowind, using the new Construction Set."
Script Effect, for example.

True + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "You can only use the map-based fast travel to go to places you've already been. So you'll HAVE to walk to each possible location AT LEAST once."
WHAT THE FUCK? This is 100% true.

Not quite. You can travel to any of the big cities without having visited them at all.

Lie + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "We could make traditional creatures that looked like every other depiction of those creatures you've seen in books, movies, or other games, but then where's the originality in that?"
Right... I don't get this either.

Oblivion is far from original.

Lie + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "NPCs would have to be told to go into your house via Radiant AI. And even if they WERE, you could always lock your door..."
Changed their mind.

Changed mind + 1

[Slateman] "Trust me, you're going to get lost if you wander in these forests and don't use the compass or map."
Since they didn't give written directions...

Considering the entire island is forest, I'm gonna say this is true.

True + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "you can enter every interior."
WTF again? Which interior can't you enter?

Given the Orrery, Lie + 1

[Pete] "There isn't a magazine on the planet that hasn't gotten information if they've asked for it."
Which is the lie?

Didn't we go through a whole period where they weren't saying anything? I can't remember though and I might be confusing it with Fallout.

Unsure + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Resurrected NPCs are not themselves. They're basically mindless automata who will follow you around and fight for you."
Which is completly true. He is talking about spell-reanimated NPCs.

True + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Oblivion is an extremely rich, complex game with a tremendous amount of depth, compelling quest lines, interesting NPC characters, a huge variety of player character types and intricate character progression set in a huge, varied game world. Combat, magic, and AI have all been dramatically improved to enhance gameplay while still providing a balance between player skill and character skill, because after all, Oblivion is a role playing game. Yes, some things that were present in Morrowind are not in Oblivion -- but a lot more has been added than removed, and the goal has always been to make a game that is both more accessible to first-time RPG players, and is also challenging and rewarding for more experienced players."
Personal opinion.

Opinion + 1

[Pete] "We will continue to support the mod community as best we can and let them do the great things they do, just as we did with Morrowind."
TESCS wiki, Construction Set released before the game, very user-friendly CS.

True + 1

[Sentinel] "The sad fact is that many development studios can't afford to bankroll their own game development. So they rely on publishers to give them the money to create these games. The problem with this is that the publisher then feels they should have input into the game since they are spending the money. Hence Atari and EA have such a big influence on a game they publish.

Just glad here at Bethesda we are our own publisher and developer and have free reign to make what we want."
What he's saying is that Bethesda publishes their own games. Which is completly true.

No, it ain't. 2K Games published Oblivion.

Lie + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "We're NOT going to slap in features that don't work well just to say we have them."
Which is fake? How?

I don't know.

Unsure + 1

[Pete] "Holidays this year"
Changed their fucking minds.

Changed mind + 1

[Pete] "You know if you have a 360 it will look as good as it can possibly look. If you have the latest, greatest PC with the best video card, etc., it will probably look the same as the Xbox 360 version."
Which is true.

True + 1

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "The compass, the quest marker and compass icons, are NOT the hand-holding, dumbing down babysitter some folks paint them out to be."
Opinion.

Opinion + 1

[Hayt] "We're around on a daily basis, and we're reading. When we're ready to comment on things, you'll all know."
Which, again, is true.

True + 1

So, Oblivion according to Lumpy:

• Truth Told = 9
  Bad Predictions = 1
  Subjective Statements = 1
  Exaggerations = 1
  Over Enthusiasm = 2
  Opinions = 3
  Unsure = 2
  Changed minds = 6
  Lies = 11

 

[OverrideB1]

This would be a lie "Oblivion has the best dialogue ever in any RPG". There's no way any designer could believe that. On the other hand, if someone says "Oblivion has better dialogue than Morrowind", you can't know that he is lying. He might be, but he probably isn't. After all, they took several decisions based on Morrowind to make the dialogue better. Even if those decisions weren't right, they obviously thinked otherwise, or they wouldn't have taken them. And yes, better for the casual gamer still counts as 'better'.

However, after the fact, when the 'wonderful' dialogue of Oblivion was revealed to be simplistic (being charitable) or childish (being truthful), you have to ask yourself whether the opinion was, in fact, opinion or whether it was hyperbole of the first water, if not downright lying.

Given that the dialogue is so piss-poor, and that there were continual references to how much the dialogue had improved, it begs the question whether those hyping up the dialogue had actually seen it or were just responding to what they'd been told. If the latter, then they are guilty of nothing more than being naif. If the former, then they were lying faster than a horse can trot.

And better for the casual gamer may still count as being better, but -- were I new to the ES series -- I would be deeply offended that the simplistic 'see spot run' dialogue was being described as "deep and meaningful'

 

[Twinfalls]

The Big Lie this time was the "e3 demonstration video" - ie the bookseller. How they all shook and shimmied the Big Lie Dance with the repeated 'it's not scripted'.

MSFD may be an over-enthusiastic coder with a PR habit, but overall, the picture is clear. It's cumulative.

They're liars alright.

 

[Texas Red]

The Big Lie this time was the "e3 demonstration video" - ie the bookseller. How they all shook and shimmied the Big Lie Dance with the repeated 'it's not scripted'.

MSFD may be an over-enthusiastic coder with a PR habit, but overall, the picture is clear. It's cumulative.

They're liars alright.

Ah yes, the infamous bookseller video. That same situation was hyped to the second coming of the Christ in untold interviews. Of course nobody mentioned that this was completely and utterly untrue. When I got Oblivion, I was expecting to see such encounters. Then I found out that somewhere somebody from Beth silently stated that the RAI was nerfed. I find it odd that I didnt see the announcement because I followed the development quite closely and I constantly visit RPG news sites.

How can you justify such a lie? For clearly that was a lie. And they say downloading games in order to test them is immoral and wrong.

 

[denizsi]

It's also possible that they are not necessarily liears but insrtead, they are "living the lie".

No, I'm not serious.

 

[Greatatlantic]

You can change the Xbox360 one will look as good as the game can possibly look to a lie. A high end PC will outperform and have better visuals then the XBox36 version.

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6147028/p-2.html

In addition, the PC version can be tweaked to look even better then the 360 version even when your not a high end gaming rig. The most important one of these is the "pea-soup", or the really low rez textures of distant terrain.

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6148788/index.html

 

[Vault Dweller]

Fargoth quest, anyone? Bethesda pulled the same shit with Morrowind, but nobody noticed, so why not do it again? All previews were going on and on about how awesome and deep the Fargoth quest is. You know the rest.

 

[HanoverF]

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "We happen to think that console gamers are smarter than that, and the success of Morrowind on Xbox proves that console gamers actually ARE interested in games with MORE depth and complexity than some people seem to think they are."
What is the lie?

Morrowind is not deep or complex.

Lie + 1

And considering they're charging $2 for horse armor, I'd say it's also a lie that they think console gamers are smarter than that...

 

[Bradylama]

Regardless of the intention of the person making the statement, it's still a lie.

Uh, the whole nature of a lie is intent. If one makes a statement they know not to be true, then that would be a lie. If they make a statement thinking that it is true, when it was in fact not, that would be a mistake.

That said, the only way they wouldn't be lying in most cases was if those features actually existed in the game at the time, and were removed later. Note that it is rarely said that they intended to implement those features.

 

[Darkflame]

It's also possible that they are not necessarily liears but insrtead, they are "living the lie".

No, I'm not serious.

lol, comedic gold

 

[KevinV12000]

Wow. I don't normally think of myself as naive or unaware, but I have to say that I am just outright shocked by this collection of quotes. While, as some have argued, there are some quotes that clearly do not rise to the level of lies, the overall effect of these quotes is to make it clear that the very core nature of the game was being seriously misrepresented to Bethesda's most ardent fans.

I remember being quite pleased when Bethesday scooped up the Fallout license from the bankruptcy court floor. Now...after Oblivion and reading this...wow.

 

[Mr Happy]

As for those quotes, who knows. The quote that always got me though was

The political landscape of the game world is highly fractured following the emperor’s assassination, and you will have to be cautious of the motives of those who would befriend you.

Which would make sense, especially because the political conflict in TES has always been one of its greatest strengths. But in Oblivion? Who?

There's political intrigue in Oblivion? :shock:

Did I say there was? I was pointing out that it alsways had been in a strength (in Daggerfall, and to a lesser extent Morrowind) unitl Oblivion.

 

[Top Hat]

To quote dictionary.com, although I don't know why...

Lie –noun
1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3. an inaccurate or false statement.
etc...

I'm guessing there will be people for whom the first/second definition holds (By the way, how can a car be a lie?). That's fine. For me, it's the third: any statement, regardless of intention, which is not the truth is a lie.

I prefer this definition because it avoids the whole issue of intent. Did Bethesda deliberately lie to us, or did they just change their minds? We'll never know: even if they said one way or the other their answer could very well be false. So, by taking the first/second definition we end up with not being able to say either way.

It's like when people say that they "meant well" when things go bad. They might as well say a pedophile "means well" when he's abusing little children, because he's trying to make himself happy.

Besides, shouldn't the real question be "Which of Bethesda's developers told the truth?"

 

[jiujitsu]

I love threads like this. Slapping people in the face with things they've said.

Too bad we won't see any of them comment to defend themselves. Pussies.

 

[Lumpy]

In my opinion, 'telling the truth' means saying what you think is true, and 'lying' means saying what you know isn't true.

 

[stargelman]

In my opinion, 'telling the truth' means saying what you think is true, and 'lying' means saying what you know isn't true.

Ok. I for one do not believe that people like Steve Meister went out of their way to tell lies. I do believe he believed what he said when he said it. I do this because I've talked to him many times and even had a burger (with fries!) with him at one time, where we talked about Oblivion, other games and even... the Codex! I think I remember myself saying that you guys were nuts and evil and whatever, and he said something to the effect of you just knowing what you wanted in RPGs and being rather honest about it. As you can imagine, that was a good time before this whole Codex = BAN issue, back when I was still a fanboi.

That said, making a rather bold statement and then not retracting it later - when you know it to no longer be true - because it might diminish your chances of selling your product - is pretty dishonest in my book. I think I have a pretty good idea who's responsible for that.

 

[Lumpy]

[Sentinel] "The sad fact is that many development studios can't afford to bankroll their own game development. So they rely on publishers to give them the money to create these games. The problem with this is that the publisher then feels they should have input into the game since they are spending the money. Hence Atari and EA have such a big influence on a game they publish.

Just glad here at Bethesda we are our own publisher and developer and have free reign to make what we want."
What he's saying is that Bethesda publishes their own games. Which is completly true.

No, it ain't. 2K Games published Oblivion.

Lie + 1

Wrong. They co-published it, mostly in Europe. Also, they didn't finance Oblivion in any way, so it was a completly independent project. Besides, don't most games get published in Europe and America by different companies?

So, Oblivion according to Lumpy:

• Truth Told = 9
  Bad Predictions = 1
  Subjective Statements = 1
  Exaggerations = 1
  Over Enthusiasm = 2
  Opinions = 3
  Unsure = 2
  Changed minds = 6
  Lies = 11

According to you, rather, since you modified some of them. And what is this list supposed to mean anyway? It doesn't make much sense.

And a Bethesda meeting according to the Codex:
"Todd: Greetings, my dear developers. What devious deceptions have you prepared for today?
MSFD: I will tell them that broken items will drop to the ground, but they actually won't! And that bribing will not work any time, yet I will not spend the 10 minutes required to program that.
Slateman: I will lie to them that we are independent because we are publishing the game ourselves, while in fact, 2KGames distribute it in Europe. The poor idiots won't suspect a thing.
Pete: And I will, most deviously, tell them that the game will be released on the holidays, but in fact, we might actually delay the release.
Todd: Perfect Gentlemen. Perfect. These lies will no doubt double our sales."