Decline Why 95% of the "modern" cRPG are so lame?

[DalekFlay]

You're right when you say that people making retro style games should be motivated by passion. But I don't think there's necessarily a choice between retro games and what sells right now. A few years ago, many journos considered turn based combat to be a relic of the past. And while many still do, there is clearly a market for turn based rpgs. And if you guide yourself strictly by what sells right now, chances are your game won't stand out in the crowded Steam marketplace. Unless, of course, you're already a very big company.

That part of it was more about how I wouldn't make a blobber that relied on graph paper in 2021. Ideally people are exposed to "retro" game styles, want to make a game like that and then look at the current market to influence how that kind of game succeeds.

 

[Ol' Willy]

JA2 isn't an rpg

Mass Effect isn't an RPG

 

[rusty_shackleford]

JA2 isn't an rpg

Mass Effect isn't an RPG

mass effect is the standard that all RPGs should be judged by

 

[Lilura]

mass effect is the standard that all RPGs should be judged by

No, it isn't. Jagged Alliance 2 is.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

mass effect is the standard that all RPGs should be judged by

No, it isn't. Jagged Alliance 2 is.

nope

 

[Monk]

Does lameness refer to the point about games using the same major structures? I remember reading that in terms of type there are only a certain number, e.g., side scrolling, tower, isometric, first or third-person, etc., with combinations used. The same applies to story elements, scenarios, etc.

It's like those FPSes that have similar mechanics and are just reskinned. Is OP looking for a new type of cRPG?

 

[fork]

Does lameness refer to the point about games using the same major structures [...]?

I think it refers to the fact that they're shit.

 

[KK1001]

1. WoW-inspired loot and systems completely shorn of all edges in the name of chasing "balance" instead of fun
2. Shoestring budgets
3. A fucked up kaleidoscopic combination of trying to reinvent the wheel, combine one or more classic RPGs together, while doing something ~new~ at the same time.
4. Lack of understanding of what made these games good
5. Trying to "fix" the "flaws" of these games
6. The same tired producers whose time has long since passed

 

[Sweeper]

No, it isn't. Jagged Alliance 2 is.

mass effect is the standard that all RPGs should be judged by

That's a funny way of spelling Underrail and/or Pathfinder Kingmaker.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Lame is a very apt description, but in the real sense of the word; not the slang sense. They are hamstrung both by committee, and choice of preferred demographic.

I believe the answer is Anthropophobia... though alas, it might not be an irrational fear these days.
These days the offended organize on social media for word of mouth boycots, studio/developer shaming, and worse.

So, you're saying all we need to get an overall increase in cRPG quality is a couple of death squadrons targeting feminazis/LGBT lobbies?

Come on, there's 15K murders a year in the USA, what's a bunch of cunts more?

 

[Zerth]

mass effect is the standard that all RPGs should be judged by

The game with radial dialogues and binary moral choices. Srsly?

 

[JarlFrank]

People who consider JA2 to not be an RPG are just too small-minded to wrap their heads around the idea that one game can be an excellent entry in two genres at once (strategy and RPG).

 

[Twiglard]

People who consider JA2 to not be an RPG are just too small-minded to wrap their heads around the idea that one game can be an excellent entry in two genres at once (strategy and RPG).

There isn't much role-playing to be done. Mostly it's one town that's mob-run/demilitarized and some minor quests here and there.

 

[DalekFlay]

We should have a thread where we debate what makes a game an RPG.

 

[Doktor Best]

We should have a thread where we debate what makes a game an RPG.

Threadtitle should be Groundhog Day

 

[JarlFrank]

People who consider JA2 to not be an RPG are just too small-minded to wrap their heads around the idea that one game can be an excellent entry in two genres at once (strategy and RPG).

There isn't much role-playing to be done. Mostly it's one town that's mob-run/demilitarized and some minor quests here and there.

You create your own character at the start of the game. Plenty of options there. I usually make her a chick who's good with rifles.
Your character's skills increase with use, like in The Elder Scrolls and other RPGs with use-based XP systems.
All the mercs you hire have stats that increase with use, just like your own char. The mercs even have personalities and some are incompatible with each other. Having Fidel and Flo in the same squad will make both pissed off, for example, because Fidel considers her a worthless soldier.
The game is also non-linear in that you can attack the cities in any order you want, or even skip them, because ultimately all you really need to do is get to Deidranna and kill her.

Is that not enough "role-playing" for you?
What "role-playing" is there to be done in Wizardry 1? Less than in JA2, yet it is an RPG.
Why, then, is JA2 not an RPG when it has more role-playing than Wizardry 1, and has perfectly fine RPG mechanics (character creation, stats, skills, use-based skill leveling)?

 

[Burning Bridges]

I know the ticket said Arulco, but how was I supposed to know that's not how the Arubans spell Aruba. I mean... these people speak Arubic.

 

[Twiglard]

Is that not enough "role-playing" for you?
What "role-playing" is there to be done in Wizardry 1? Less than in JA2, yet it is an RPG.
Why, then, is JA2 not an RPG when it has more role-playing than Wizardry 1, and has perfectly fine RPG mechanics (character creation, stats, skills, use-based skill leveling)?

Part of the reason is that the game frames and presents itself as distinct from the RPG tradition. It's a strategy and turn-based tactics. Could you imagine a sports game with rpg elements? You could have all elements of player character progression and development in a skill-based sports game. Sports RPG. Sounds absurd, right? Score a goal, get XP and level up your tackle.

Dungeon Rats also has almost no story but frames itself as part of the RPG tradition.

As an example -- among the Lisp programming language family (as derived from LISP 1.5) there's Scheme, which is not a Lisp. It is a Lisp by all possible definitions but the users doesn't see eye to eye with the larger Lisp community. At least that's how Kent Pitman explained it on c.l.l. It has absolutely everything in common with ANSI Common Lisp and way more than, say, Apple Dylan.

 

[orcinator]

It died when people decided that using dynamite on the scorpion cave was less interesting than pumping your speech, picking the longest dialogue options and talking your way out of every problem.

Also the best RPG series is Civilization.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Could you imagine a sports game with rpg elements? You could have all elements of player character progression and development in a skill-based sports game. Sports RPG. Sounds absurd, right? Score a goal, get XP and level up your tackle.

Football Manager has more RPG elements than 83% of RPGs released in 2020

 

[Delterius]

if a game does the wizardry 8 thing where you create a whole party but they have entire personalities you can assign to each character

then

and only then

its an rpg

there ya go i did it

 

[Ol' Willy]

People who consider JA2 to not be an RPG are just too small-minded to wrap their heads around the idea that one game can be an excellent entry in two genres at once (strategy and RPG).

Thing is, as RPG JA2 is somewhat lacking.

Z.B., each character has some skills available - which are more akin to perks in Fallout or feats in Underrail. But assignment of skills starts and ends at chargen. You have two "skillpoints" for your char, so you can pick up two skills or have one skill in expert. That's not great RPG design. Again, z.B., I make a sneaky char and pick up Stealth expert at chargen. Then, later, I would surely benefit from related perks - I may be interested in Night Ops, Camouflaged, Ambidextrous for better use of silenced weapons or Full Auto for better use of silenced SMGs. But I can't pick up any new skills. This limits character progression a lot.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Is that not enough "role-playing" for you?
What "role-playing" is there to be done in Wizardry 1? Less than in JA2, yet it is an RPG.
Why, then, is JA2 not an RPG when it has more role-playing than Wizardry 1, and has perfectly fine RPG mechanics (character creation, stats, skills, use-based skill leveling)?

Come on, it's like you've never took part of any conversation on the topic around here or you've played the ostrich all along...

 

[Monk]

I think it refers to the fact that they're shit.

What isn't, and why?

 

[somewhatgiggly]

I mean, why do we like the games we do?

I like Fallout:New Vegas, Icewind Dale, Underrail, Fallout 1-2. Even DXHR. Why?

Well, I could customize the shit out of my characters, and I gave a damn about the story. It felt like I was making a difference, even if it was a push in the right direction to tumble the big boulder off the hill. And the world felt alive; it felt like things were happening and the NPCs actually gave a damn. I could replay most of them, too, and mods extended their lifetime.

I don't get that with most other games. They can't be modded, or they're just boring, you feel less like someone than just a murderhobo, you can't replay a whole new style (thus extending getting some bang-for-buck), or something like that.

And, granted, all those examples have flaws, too. NV feels empty after you stroll out of town and finish their problem of the week, and the Legion is half-cooked. Icewind dale is a huge dungeon crawl (but that's fine). Underrail is a little static and tries a little to hard to be 'legit' to the chagrin of the player. Fallout 1 and 2 are limited by their tech and misapplied focus (comedy and references in 2 to the detriment of the world), and DXHR got too linear (Jensen is already premade up the wazoo and the endings were literally buttons, but I liked pressing the button I did - Sarif, btw). All of those games needed polish.

The next big CRPG or just RPG whatever just needs to have a polished, living world, than a open sandbox. Fill in the side stuff. Make it moddable; stuff it with DLC to finish the world or expand gameplay, and have a conflict players can give a damn about, and a character the player can mold into their proxy-avatar. Have 'layers' of content per location so a level 10 character does something and can come back to deal with something at level 20, 30, 40, and that content can be unique or tied to the greater story, or both. That, I feel, will make a damn good crpg for the 2020s+

In the case of, say, Fallout, it's been hijacked. No, not by some political bogeyman but a deluded corporate boardroom, that thinks Fallout is the place 'where you can do everything and anything' in some post-apoc atompunk wasteland...when, no? The flurry of choices came from a selection of available ways to play the game. You're not making settlements in 1 or tactics or even 3, but you could shoot everyone and anyone dead because it if can bleed, it can be killed. When that mantra took over the original theme, that's when that series fell down the gutter. The Post-atomic wasteland barely mattered in 1 other than 'this is what the world left us and now we're trying to get by'. No one cared about Old-World America or China in 1, it was just trying to adapt now. In 2, the Past-lovers are the literal villains who'll undo everything due to their nostalgia and cause, etc, etc.... But come the new games and it's all America this, China that, Communism this, Lol so whacky, atomic cars!