Why AP is FAIL: 2 reasons

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

You know skyway, maybe Obsidian are more original than you give them credit for? Only they've ever made NPC influence meter systems that are actually interesting and worthwhile, they've thought of new and unusual things like the overland map, spirit meter, used unpopular settings like Rasheman, proven that they actually do their homework by looking at whats good and bad about games. Like NWN and they generally improved the balance and made the system less exploitable and cheap in general with the NWN2 changes I previously mentioned and heap of others that I haven't.

And maybe the lack of social skills for AP and inclusion of mini games aren't such a bad idea for an aRPG? Instead of a binary digit that decides if you are successful or not it goes with a more hand on approach with the pre-mission preparation in the hub deciding how to prepare for the mission. And then when you leave the hub your preparation comes into play and then go ahead and interact in a real time cut scene with a time limit to think about how you want to deal with conversations, or maybe try to do a subtle investigation while trying not to get caught. I haven't seen an RPG with this kind of interaction before, have you?

And as for setting... well it's subjective, sure, but no is so absurd as to honestly think that it's impossible to make shit up like the gadgets of the 007 movies, The sonar system of The Dark Knight, various MacGuyver type shit that takes suspension of disbelief to a whole new level, or the pseudo sci-fi prototype technology of the Tom Clancy series... and the list goes on. Plenty of people find the GTA, 007, 24 and Batman series' to be very entertaining and sometimes interesting, and guess what? They were all similar to the AP setting.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I sense a whole damn lot of fail in this thread's sector.

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

I sense a whole damn lot of fail in this thread's sector.

It's really not that hard to understand... AP is an ARPG, so instead of letting MT be ruled entirely by numbers it asks that the player makes it up as they go along. You don't go "ok i haz 10 charisma" and click the 10 charizma respones when they appear. That would make it less of an ARPG if it was the case. Also if you guys are referining to really old school games with the likes of hunger systems and overland maps that may have been dime a dozen in the 80's-90's some time before Zelda, Ocarina of Time was considered an RPG (which is lolz for obvious reason)

Then try harder. Adventure and flight sims used to be common too, but not anymore. Not in the Bioware/Betheshda/Legend of Zelda generation

 

[MetalCraze]

Only they've ever made NPC influence meter systems that are actually interesting and worthwhile

OMG nobody did NPC influence systems before Obsidian!

spirit meter

Holy crap - a timer dependable on your decisions - nobody did that like one hundred times before

used unpopular settings like Rasheman

What? Faerun is unpopular setting? Pro-tip: Rasheman is not a setting. Thai wizards are popular and their "sector" pretty much too.

improved the balance

oh lol - they imrpoved the dnd3.5 balance?

Instead of a binary digit that decides if you are successful or not it goes with a more hand on approach with the pre-mission preparation in the hub deciding how to prepare for the mission

Holy crap - that must be some innovashun. No really - dice rolls are binary digit. Cool logic.

And maybe the lack of social skills for AP and inclusion of mini games aren't such a bad idea for an aRPG?

and lack of non-combat skills too. You play retarded minigames instead. But if you replace skills with minigames how can you even say it's a rpg and not a dumb console shooter?

unusual things like the overland map

Hahaha ffs. Mickeymouse is your typical ESF untermensch it seems.
With such incredibly retarded arguments (more dumb akshun and twitching in RPGs please - stop with that numbers shit grandpa!) that just tell that you didn't play RPGs much - are you sure you're on the right forum?

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

Lol at selective comprehension. Basically you'll just take everything I say and twist it on it's head despite claiming to have experienced it all. I consider myself more experienced in RPGs than your average GTTV or gamespot gamer. Everything except Descent to Undermountain and SoZ by BIS/Obs, Dues Ex, FO 1-3, Vampire by Troika, everything by Bioware, and some FF and Zelda games and probably the other couple of troika games later. Note that I'm going with the "official" definition of RPG, and not personal interpretation.

If AP mini games are like ME, they will be an ACTIONRPG feature, not a replacement like you seem to think due to the fact you need to pass the skill point test before the minigame. This is not a debatable point of ME mini games. A replacement would be the removal of the diplomacy skill and instead giving people options in the way of interaction and equippable items. If AP gives enough variety of these things then it could be like an interactive how to win friends and influence people simulator, rather than how much of a point or skill investment you put into it.

Since talking to you is like talking to a zealous Christan fanatic, I really can't be fucked explaining anything else to you after this.

By the way, random luck in RPG skills like accuracy, bullet damage and persuasion can GTFO and suck a dick for all I care. They have their place, and completely skill based action like aiming and persuasion is not it.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

God, please, someone ban skyway or make him shut up. Personaly, Im convinced that AP will be shit, but reading the Bitchers mental diaherra almost makes me want to defend the game.

spirit meter

Holy crap - a timer dependable on your decisions - nobody did that like one hundred times before

What. What is that sentence even supposed to mean? The spirit meter was a clever implementation of the main story element into the gameplay which gave the game a sense of urgency and opened up different roleplaying possibilites. Care to back your bullshit up with facts skyway? Can you name a single RPG in the last 5-6 years which did something similiar?

used unpopular settings like Rasheman

What? Faerun is unpopular setting? Pro-tip: Rasheman is not a setting. Thai wizards are popular and their "sector" pretty much too.

[/quote]
Of course Rashemen is a setting you dumbass. Just because it is part of a larger , more standart, overused and bland world (Fearun) doesnt mean the subsetting itself is equally uninspired.
Its like saying "Planescape Torments setting was unoriginal because it is based in the overused D&D universe". You fail at basic logic, are you really that dumb skyway?

 

[Dionysus]

and lack of non-combat skills too. You play retarded minigames instead. But if you replace skills with minigames how can you even say it's a rpg and not a dumb console shooter?

I don't think there's any evidence that they've replaced the skills with minigames. Many ARPGs have skills and minigames that coexist. I assume that infiltration will govern lockpicking and technical aptitude will govern computer use.

Of course Rashemen is a setting you dumbass. Just because it is part of a larger , more standart, overused and bland world (Fearun) doesnt mean the subsetting itself is equally uninspired.

He probably thinks that Angola is the same setting as Japan, because they are on the same planet.

 

[MetalCraze]

What. What is that sentence even supposed to mean? The spirit meter was a clever implementation of the main story element into the gameplay which gave the game a sense of urgency and opened up different roleplaying possibilites. Care to back your bullshit up with facts skyway? Can you name a single RPG in the last 5-6 years which did something similiar?

In the last 5-6 years? No. The timer was a good thing sure - but saying that Obsidian did something unusual because of a single thing is unfair. Though MotB is their best game to date.

Of course Rashemen is a setting you dumbass. Just because it is part of a larger , more standart, overused and bland world (Fearun) doesnt mean the subsetting itself is equally uninspired.

Strawman? I didn't say it was uninspired (and Thai wizards and their region by far not unpopular) but Obsidian still didn't make anything original which is the point. They still used a setting made for them for their game.

Its like saying "Planescape Torments setting was unoriginal because it is based in the overused D&D universe". You fail at basic logic, are you really that dumb skyway?

No you just fail and throw strawmen as always.
PS:T is based on the overused D&D universe? Compared to Faerun - Planescape is the shining beacon of originality and innovation and was very new at the time they started make Torment.
But the argument was not about this. It was about how Obsidian can only use settings made by someone else and can't create anything of their own.
And you call me dumb if you can't grasp the main reason of the discussion? Redding is teh hard or something?

Many ARPGs have skills and minigames that coexist.

Care to name those "many" aRPGs? And how many of them were something more than console piece of shit?

Besides when will you start pay attention? Dev said "you need skills to play minigames" which means skills affect nothing but more boredom in the game. That's some a"rpg" there - binary digit indeed - either you don't hack the computer or you have to play a hacking minigame - no matter what your skill is you will still have to twitch or gtfo. That must be some good implementation of stats right there.
What is even more retarded with this approach is that you won't be able to get your dose of minigame boredom unless you have a required level of skill, just like in ME with dialogues or in the recent addon to Oblivion. Which is a crap compared to dice roll things where even a smaller skill has a chance of success because of high dice roll - which is pretty realistic as it can be called luck. Or you can easily fuck up everything even if you have a high lockpicking skill but got dice roll so low that you broke the lock - oh but I forgot - there won't be breaking locks in AP.

 

[Dionysus]

And you call me dumb if you can't grasp the main reason of the discussion? Redding is teh hard or something?

To be fair, you did write something extraordinarily stupid. It's hard not to pick on that sort of thing.

Besides when will you start pay attention? Dev said "you need skills to play minigames" which means skills affect nothing but more boredom in the game.

If you know that, then why did you suggest that minigames replace noncombat skills? You are now suggesting that the skills are absolutely necessary.

That's some a"rpg" there - binary digit indeed - either you don't hack the computer or you have to play a hacking minigame - no matter what your skill is you will still have to twitch or gtfo. That must be some good implementation of stats right there. What is even more retarded with this approach is that you won't be able to get your dose of minigame boredom unless you have a required level of skill, just like in ME with dialogues or in the recent addon to Oblivion.

So, now you are complaining because the skills will be too important? I can understand why someone with no dexterity would avoid action-RPGs, but I don't see why the same person would then turn around and claim that character skills are too important.

Which is a crap compared to dice roll things where even a smaller skill has a chance of success because of high dice roll - which is pretty realistic as it can be called luck. Or you can easily fuck up everything even if you have a high lockpicking skill but got dice roll so low that you broke the lock - oh but I forgot - there won't be breaking locks in AP.

I definitely disagree with this point. You might think that one-armed bandits offer the height of interactive entertainment, but I really don't think that dice rolls are terribly entertaining. But it doesn't surprise me that you are more of a craps player than a poker player.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Personaly, Im convinced that AP will be shit, but reading the Bitchers mental diaherra almost makes me want to defend the game.

And to think that we once wanted to give that title to DU.

 

[MetalCraze]

why did you suggest that minigames replace noncombat skills?

...what?

So, now you are complaining because the skills will be too important?

what

 

[MLMarkland]

wut

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

Skyway, are there any FPS twitch based action games you enjoy? I've never actually seen anything from you that would suggest that you're not generally opposed to an action FPS style game where you're required to do lots of looking left/right, a bit of up/down with lots of clicking action. Unless you count all the bitching you do about the optional auto aim of AP, FO3 and ME. You did say you played Unreal some time between now and 11 years ago for at least 5 minutes. Dues Ex, Flashpoint, Rainbow are games you say good things about which can be played as twitch skill hand-to-eye coordination if that's the style of play you prefer, though it's mostly optional.

What I'm trying to say is, what does Skyway like in a twitch hand-to-eye skilled game?

 

[Wyrmlord]

Dues Ex

For fuck's sake, how long can you keep spelling it that way and get away with it?

 

[MetalCraze]

Skyway, are there any FPS twitch based action games you enjoy?

Why yes of course. From dumb fun of Doom and its clones which is like Alien Shooter in 1st person (or actually - AS is Doom top down) where you kill real hordes of enemies with gore everywhere; cool John Woo stuff in Max Payne and incredible atmosphere of its winter city to even pointless stuff like online UT99 once in a while. I like such really twitchy shooters because they provide fast action and meat. I only dislike the lack of co-op in most of them and the fact that they get repetitive after a while.

I've never actually seen anything from you that would suggest that you're not generally opposed to an action FPS style game

Why would you? Codex rarely discusses old games besides RPGs or tactics (as they go quite hand in hand)
And there are no good new real twitch shooters - Kill/Switch started the trend of boring cover-behind-this-specially-placed-block-take-out-dumb'n'slow-enemy-with-auto-aim crap instead. Which is the case with ME and its clone - AP - because the gameplay is incredibly sloooooow without any reason (other than console gamepads) and predictable - ME just like GoW f.e. is just one long corridor with specially placed boxes and it looks and plays bad.

the optional auto aim of AP, FO3 and ME.

Optional lol - you forgot to add GoW and Kill/Switch to this fail list.

Dues Ex, Flashpoint, Rainbow are games you say good things about which can be played as twitch skill hand-to-eye coordination if that's the style of play you prefer, though it's mostly optional.

In fact they are anything but twitch games. They are the other side in fact - more thoughtful as you can be easily killed and/or ammo is scarce so you need to proceed with care. I can't say that they somehow relate to "I ran out of the hospital and took down literally the horde of guards".

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

I consider winning lone wolf at the kill house against 30 terrorists to be fairly twitchy. At least I've rarely won it on elite in a typical day where my rambo and Jack Bauer skills are not at my personal best.

 

[Dionysus]

why did you suggest that minigames replace noncombat skills?

...what?

and lack of non-combat skills too. You play retarded minigames instead. But if you replace skills with minigames how can you even say it's a rpg and not a dumb console shooter?

So, now you are complaining because the skills will be too important?

what

What is even more retarded with this approach is that you won't be able to get your dose of minigame boredom unless you have a required level of skill, just like in ME with dialogues or in the recent addon to Oblivion. Which is a crap compared to dice roll things where even a smaller skill has a chance of success because of high dice roll...

 

[Wyrmlord]

Seriously though, when it comes to instant gratification, modern shooters fail to provide even that. For pure mindless killing sprees, old shooters still do a better job.

Modern console shooters have absolutely nothing to provide. Nothing. They are slow, they are easy, they are short, and they have small corridors with one or two enemies in them.

And they are ugly as shit.

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

Most old shooters are pretty bad at providing instant gratification when compared to online player versus player. I have never played a single player shooter with half the tension of a multiplayer game of Rogue Spear when an 8 vs 8 ends up with me holding my breath and very cautiously searching the place, wary of the enemy hitting me when I'm looking the wrong way. And TF2 pub servers are great for some mindless fun and fooling around.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

Fallout 3's mini-game system is the worst of both worlds. You can't attempt to lock-pick this because you're not good enough, but when you are, you still have to do the same trial/error wank control console retard action mini-game (or force it with 15% chance of success). Instead of roleplaying, it's larping, but with magical cock-block limits, like nuh-uh you aren't confident enough to do attempt high-level wanking which differs from normal wankin in no other way than your skin gets tighter.

But I'm not suggesting that it'd be better to have either minigames or skill checks. I suggest forget fucking minigames and have stat rolls like Fallout.