Why AP is FAIL: 2 reasons

[MetalCraze]

You were criticising Obsidian "fanboys" of disregarding developer's comments that they did not like. You did the same with the "stealth path" comment, passing it off as PR talk.

Except the difference is that no proof of stealth gameplay was shown - even more - Avellone was talking about how this path is his favorite - yet every dev incl Avellone himself talks easily in-depth about how you blow various shit up and every video shows Thorton gunning down hordes of enemies even while devs mention stealth. Yet they never give you an example of stealth gameplay besides "you can paw paw that enemy from behind the cover"
And a simple common sense tells you what?

Stealth skill also appears to be incredibly lame - just look at its description - it doesn't help a stealth gameplay - it just makes enemies in the distance blind to any of your moves - even if you will move in front of them but in crouched position (hi Oblivion)

Their work is no longer in the game.

Oh really? And you are saying something about my complaints and "flip flopping" while you are playing deaf or something?
The video is new and Avellone said their work is IN the game.

Also, note that SoZ took a different direction, and focused on a wide variety of different dialogue and stat checks, not on depth.

Different dialogue? Stat checks? Excuse me? First - dialogue was shit and consisted literally of 3 words (ME had longer sentences), second - that isn't an excuse for bland characters and piece of shit story and writing.

He also said stealth is his favourite pathway, and a number of developers have mentioned the existence of a stealth path. Yet you don't believe that? Interesting.

They never mentioned an existence of stealth path. They just said that you can paw paw that guy from the cover or use a "spell" that makes you invisible in front of the enemy for several seconds.

But there are aspects that are more positive.

Like which? Even on comparison shots posted above ME character stats look better than AP's crap. ME even had dialogue stat checks (though lame).
It is also can be clearly seen that AP is yet another ripoff of a Bioware game. Obsidian can't come up with anything of their own.

 

[Spectacle]

What I don't get is why anyone was excited about the Aliens RPG. Sure, there's some interesting stuff in the Aliens universe, but considering that the game was aimed at a mass market whose main familiarity with the franchise is from the silly Alien vs Predator stuff, I'm pretty sure the Aliens RPG was about a generic space marine moving through generic spaceship corridors and killing aliens by the bucketload.

 

[RK47]

Gamefaqs "How to gain influence with Predator to recruit him"

 

[Longshanks]

Their work is no longer in the game.

Oh really? And you are saying something about my complaints and "flip flopping" while you are playing deaf or something?
The video is new and Avellone said their work is IN the game.

I don't recall that part of the video, but Annie has posted numerous times, and quoted Mitsoda, that nothing of her's remains in the game, and I think only the dialogue system remains of Mitsoda's contribution (not sure on that). It's possible that some character's they designed are still there, hence Avellone's comment, but Annie has clearly stated none of her writing is in the game. If their work were included, I'd not see that as a negative. Brian's done some good stuff in the past, and as I said, SoZ did not focus on quality writing or characters (not played it myself, so will have to take your word on the poor writing and characters. In fact, I've not completed any Obsidian game yet; part way through NWN2 atm, only playing it to get to MotB).

Stealth skill also appears to be incredibly lame - just look at its description - it doesn't help a stealth gameplay - it just makes enemies in the distance blind to any of your moves - even if you will move in front of them but in crouched position (hi Oblivion)

Agree. It doesn't sound good. Seems to be used in the same way as most RPGs - Fallout, Bloodlines, Oblivion. Particularly for an actionRPG, handling it like in Deus Ex and Thief, where levels are designed for you to be able to stay out of sight, is far better. Looking for it to have a mix, like in Bloodlines, but with more than just a few levels designed for it.

 

[MetalCraze]

I'd not see that as a negative

You don't see a bland piss poor writing as negative?

SoZ did not focus on quality writing or characters

It didn't focus on anything. It is the worst Obsidian "game" to date (yep even worse than NWN2) - it has everything done bad - it feels like an amateur mod.
In fact it is so bad that they let devs do voice-overs for characters - so low-budget it was.

Seems to be used in the same way as most RPGs - Fallout, Bloodlines, Oblivion.

Well in FO they were always detecting you when you was sneaking in a direct line of sight where there were no obstacles iirc. Bloodlines and Oblivion had the worst implementations of stealth I've seen.

Looking for it to have a mix, like in Bloodlines

There wasn't a mix - stealth in Bloodlines was ridiculously overpowered - when you put 8 points into it you could sneak literally in front of the enemy's nose and he couldn't see you.
Another thing that will absolutely ruin AP is Exp-per-kill - seeing as combat is boring and all. There won't be a reason to even try to do stealth. Unless they will give you exp for something else which I doubt considering that they are going for direct copy of Mass Effect. But I would like to know that.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Bloodlines and Oblivion had the worst implementations of stealth I've seen.

Very true. One game allows you to be undetected even while squatting under someone's nose, the other has enemies detect you and your location the moment your arrow has been fired.

 

[Talonfire]

Well to be fair, stealth can only be done justice in a pure stealth game like Thief where the game is structured around that mechanic. RPGs tend to be stat reliant, so stealth goes from being useless to making you undetectable depending on how many points are placed in it; no matter what the environmental conditions are. The lights could all be on in a random Bloodlines building, and you could still be undetectable if your stealth was maxed.

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

All the lack of social skills prove is that any choices in AP will be solely up to whatever it is you want to do as a player and not be restricted by a points meter. Kind of like The Witcher which also had a ton of combat, no stealth and a pre-defined character. And you can file this under speculation/wishful thinking if you like, but could this be what Obsidan was referring to when they said "we want players to be able to experience everything in one game"? Either that, or it's a totally linear FPS.

 

[MetalCraze]

will be solely up to whatever it is you want to do as a player and not be restricted by a points meter.

OMG my gaem restrikts me becuz I hav a different beeld of character!!! Git thet shit out of my gaems grandpa!

Except you won't. It only means that some choices will either have a 100% chance of failure or success no matter what you do. That must be so fun. Oh and "there won't be a "failure" choice" as devs said. So...

Kind of like The Witcher which also had a ton of combat, no stealth and a pre-defined character.

TW is a good example of why such system is bad.
It was always railroading you and was linear as fuck thanks to that (Geralt was even talking through most of dialogues without any player interaction) - no matter what you choose - it always meant success - probably CDP just confused PC with consoles and made a game for PC first by mistake.

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

Skyway, I don't care what you want in an RPG, and neither do Obsidian. If an RPG gives no chance of failure in interactions because you're always going to succeed due to lack of restrictions it does not mean everything will be perfectly obvious or predictable. It doesn't necessarily indicate what will happen should you choose from a pre-defined selection of actions or reactions such as "aggressive, professional and suave" responses when dealing with people. Dues Ex, a game you just love to fap off to had no social skills, and barely any interaction from the player, yet it wasn't really railroaded and was actually quite a good RPG.

By the way you can't accuse people of been fan boys without looking like a hypocrite. kthxbai

 

[MetalCraze]

So tell me how am I a hypocrite?

BTW, Deus Ex is not RPG.

Also you seem to forget that this is Obsidian we are talking about - the Mediocrity Corp. itself which never did anything original.

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

*covers ears* lalalalalalala not listening

 

[Wyrmlord]

If an RPG gives no chance of failure in interactions because you're always going to succeed due to lack of restrictions it does not mean everything will be perfectly obvious or predictable.

I think me and DraQ have talked about it several times. I think it is something that DraQ has talked alot about in the RPG design discussion.

I said that no bad choices is a wrong move for a game to take because you never have to worry about the decision you make. No bad choices is particularly unnecessary when games allow you to save and reload anyway. And trying out different things and seeing which one works is a fun thing to do in games anyway, a part of the challenge.

And yes, no bad choices is the same thing as one good effect and one bad effect for each choice. It means that the player never has to worry about making a mistake with a choice, because he's bound to gain something on way or another. It happens that way in NWN2 between choosing the Thieves or the Guard, which is a totally pointless choice. No choice should be a perfect substitute for another.

DraQ said that one right choice is also a bad move, because it means railroading a game, and simplifying everything you do in the game. And he's also right, I am afraid. When there's one way of doing something, and you know what it is, doing the task seems like filler content.

Fact is that neither binary simplicity nor equivalent possibilities are the way to go. A game needs to offer differentiated choices. Each choice gives its own unique benefit, which neither negates nor augments any benefit of another choice. Choosing between lockpicking and hacking in Deus Ex gains you totally different advantages. Hacking means you turn the turrets on enemies. Lockpicking means you get access to blocked areas.

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

Fact is that neither binary simplicity nor equivalent possibilities are the way to go. A game needs to offer differentiated choices.

No they don't. I've enjoyed plenty of simple or binary single player games, and the movie style presentation would be more entertaining without constant breaks in the flow of things like Dues Ex. Judging by what I know AP is more of the former, but it doesn't really mean there can't be variation of the interactive movie variety.

I don't care if this is a shallow or simple view to take, sometimes I want to be entertained. Other times the likes of AP and ME bore me and that is when I pick from one of several games like Dues Ex, Alpha Centauri and so on.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I don't care if this is a shallow or simple view to take.

You shouldn't. Indeed, you should only worry about whether the game is fun.

Do understand though, when people talk about dumbing down, they are not really just talking about complexity.

Because in fact, it's not so much reduction in complexity as it is the complete stripping of entire features from games, reasonably good features, for no reason at all.

Like how wall climbing, rooftop jumping, and levitation are no longer there at this point in the Elder Scrolls series. Or how Deus Ex 3 won't even have skills at all. Like Deus Ex's jumping skill, which allowed you to drop from large heights and survive the falls. Things that people have fun using are just cut down from games, and you just have less of a game to play.

Also, sometimes you are so shortchanged on the content, you don't even have a game at all. Like CoD4. Missions like the one where you have to defend against waves of Ultranationalists on a hill and then run back down to the helicopter can be said to be fun. Missions where you are simply following orders and taking cue, like All Ghillied Up, have absolutely no point at all.

Believe me, nobody ever said they want complexity and nothing else (otherwise Paradox games would be more popular around here). It's making it fun that counts.

 

[FeelTheRads]

game is fun.

How about sad? Is a game good if it's sad? Eh? Eh?


I thought only TESFers used this moronic simplification of games. "Hey, Fallout 3 is fun, that's all that matters!"

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

game is fun.

"Hey, Fallout 3 is fun, that's all that matters!"

 

[Talonfire]

Also you seem to forget that this is Obsidian we are talking about - the Mediocrity Corp. itself which never did anything original.

Are you confusing Obsidian with Bioware again? They're not the greatest developers ever, but "unoriginal"? Knights of the Old Republic II and Mask of the Betrayer must have been figments of my imagination.

 

[MetalCraze]

KotOR2 which is a sequel of Bioware's game and based on the most overused sci fi-fantasy setting.
And MotB which is based on the most overused fantasy setting and an addon to a game which is a sequel to yet another game by Bioware.
Apart from characters and writing everything was done for Obsidian by someone.

 

[Jim Cojones]

MotB which is based on the most overused fantasy setting

Except there is no other crpg set in Rashemen.

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

Whole feats like Knockdown and monk speed been massively nerfed, warlocks, cool down timers, 5 skill point stack limits, 4 total classes, lower crit range on weapons just to name a few gameplay differences... yeah, I can see how NWN2 totally ripped NWN off with the gameplay...

lol

 

[Talonfire]

KotOR2 which is a sequel of Bioware's game and based on the most overused sci fi-fantasy setting.
And MotB which is based on the most overused fantasy setting and an addon to a game which is a sequel to yet another game by Bioware.
Apart from characters and writing everything was done for Obsidian by someone.

How "overused" a setting is, is inconsequential. It's how they actually use the setting that's important. Knights of the Old Republic II tried to do something that wasn't done before in the Star Wars setting, and even if the final product was far from perfect it was still more "fresh" than the original KotOR which used every Star Wars cliche possible.

 

[MetalCraze]

MotB which is based on the most overused fantasy setting

Except there is no other crpg set in Rashemen.

It was still that PoS DnD 3.5 - and what's worse - epic levels. My mage was totally useless - they don't get anything past level 20 - unlike some dumb barbarians.
I would've wished MotB to be a separate game and didn't require NWN2 crap or be a sequel to it.

Knights of the Old Republic II tried to do something that wasn't done before in the Star Wars setting, and even if the final product was far from perfect it was still more "fresh" than the original KotOR which used every Star Wars cliche possible.

It still had jedis - and they are the main problem of Star Wars setting.

The fact is still there - Obsidian used someone else's ideas - they never made an original setting or game themselves. And AP is only a proof of their inability to create.
Out of all settings they've chosen the most boring one - "a tour to the places which you see on evening news every fucking day".

 

[Talonfire]

It still had jedis - and they are the main problem of Star Wars setting.

The fact is still there - Obsidian used someone else's ideas - they never made an original setting or game themselves. And AP is only a proof of their inability to create.
Out of all settings they've chosen the most boring one - "a tour to the places which you see on evening news every fucking day".

I agree that Jedi are overused in Star Wars, which is why I consider TIE Fighter the greatest Star Wars game ever. No freaking Jedi except for Vader and the Emperor who only make occasional appearances.

I think Obsidian has the potential to create a decent original setting, unfortunately they decided to go with a ridiculous idea that no one cares about for their first foray into the IP arena. Then again so did Bioware; remember Jade Empire?

 

[MetalCraze]

Jade Empire

Compared to a generic yet-another setting in a modern-day "popular" places that we see in every single game about fighting terrorists (which is strange for a game "inspired" by Bond movies - which featured some bizarre places, or Bourne/Bauer with their "city-next-door" locations) - JE setting was pretty original - a setting based around chinese fairy-tales is not something common + steam-punk-ish flying machines. It is still dull overall though, but it had potential.