Why AP is FAIL: 2 reasons

[Vault Dweller]

There are plenty of reasons to be VERY excited about AP, if the released info is true. Since Obsidian doesn't have a habit of making shit up, I see no reasons not to trust the info.

 

[Volourn]

Yes, they do. They claimed SOZ would be as awesome as old school rpgs. They lied.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm not talking about subjective things like "trust us, it will be awesome!!!" I'm talking about specific gameplay features and examples.

 

[Azrael the cat]

I think one thing being left out is that most of the pro-Obsidian camp, myself included if I can be in that camp, are very heavily couching their praise in relative terms. Because frankly, as much as I might prefer my old collection of Arcanum, PS:T, Deus Ex, SS2, FO and Bloodlines, there's only so many fucking times we can replay the same games. After a while it's either 'buy a new game', or give up gaming.

Why not just take a hiatus from RPG's? It's not like you have to force-feed yourself shit all year round or give up RPG's for ever.

Mainly because I like RPGs enough that I still kind of enjoy even crappy ones. It's like red wine - that's my favourite alcohol, and I love the stuff, but that doesn't mean that I have a refined taste for expensive reds. Quite the opposite - sure, I REALLY like good reds, but I'll still enjoy a shitty house wine, or a cheap red while reading in the evening.

And I usually enjoy a crap RPG ahead of a decent game in most other genres. I still miss the good ones though. So the point is, and I don't think that this is unusual, I like RPGs enough that I'll be buying one or two this year no matter what, primarily because I've played my back-catalogue to the point where I need at least a year or two off them before I can enjoy them again. Like most people in that position, I look around to see what the best ones will be, even if it is the best of a sad bunch.

And there's also just the matter of interest. What better RPGs are coming out? I know some people will say AoD, and that might be right and could well be one I'll buy, but indies simply aren't going to flood the market such that they'll replace my mainstream rpg gaming - at best they might be a pleasant bonus every few years. And if Obsidian is a shit rpg studio even by today's low standards, what studios SHOULD I be following?

And then there's just the trivial 'does anything make this guy happy????' question. What non-indie RPGs that are coming out in the next couple of years does Skyway think are actually going to worth getting, and what rpg companies does he think are better? And where SHOULD Jason Anderson have gone, rather than InXile?

 

[Volourn]

"I'm not talking about subjective things like "trust us, it will be awesome!!!" I'm talking about specific gameplay features and examples."

Subtle sarcasm is subtle.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

There are plenty of reasons to be VERY excited about AP, if the released info is true.

But it's the unsaid things that are worrying. Like how Obsidian has no experience with making a shooter or an action game. Even when Bioware had previous experience, it didn't stop Jade Empire from tanking in the action department and bringing the game down as a whole.

And even some of the info is open to a lot of interpretation, which can go either way depending not on how much you trust Obsidian's credibility, but how much you trust their capability.

I want a good game as much as the next guy, but it's probably only going to be worth a rental, if even.

 

[Vault Dweller]

There are plenty of reasons to be VERY excited about AP, if the released info is true.

But it's the unsaid things that are worrying. Like how Obsidian has no experience with making a shooter or an action game.

Did Troika have a lot of action/shooter experience when they made Bloodlines, which most Codexers agree was a p. cool game. No?

Granted, Bloodlines was a mixed bag game, but if AP is a game of Bloodlines caliber, I'll be a happy customer. I was just surprised to see people at the Codex trashing the game because it doesn't look cool and drawing conclusions out of their asses.

I want a good game as much as the next guy, but it's probably only going to be worth a rental, if even.

Based on what, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Imbecile]

. I was just surprised to see people at the Codex trashing the game because it doesn't look cool and drawing conclusions out of their asses.

I dunno, to some extent this is classic codex. Its more fun to bitch, so you make negative prejudgments, and throw in a little extra spice if the game in question is popular, on a console or over hyped.

 

[ghostdog]

Did Troika have a lot of action/shooter experience when they made Bloodlines, which most Codexers agree was a p. cool game. No?

Granted, Bloodlines was a mixed bag game, but if AP is a game of Bloodlines caliber, I'll be a happy customer. I was just surprised to see people at the Codex trashing the game because it doesn't look cool and drawing conclusions out of their asses.

Yeah, but Bloodlines had excellent art direction and atmosphere, from what I've seen so far AP is likely to fail in these departments.

 

[buccaroobonzai]

I think one thing being left out is that most of the pro-Obsidian camp, myself included if I can be in that camp, are very heavily couching their praise in relative terms. Because frankly, as much as I might prefer my old collection of Arcanum, PS:T, Deus Ex, SS2, FO and Bloodlines, there's only so many fucking times we can replay the same games. After a while it's either 'buy a new game', or give up gaming.

Why not just take a hiatus from RPG's? It's not like you have to force-feed yourself shit all year round or give up RPG's for ever.

Mainly because I like RPGs enough that I still kind of enjoy even crappy ones. It's like red wine - that's my favourite alcohol, and I love the stuff, but that doesn't mean that I have a refined taste for expensive reds. Quite the opposite - sure, I REALLY like good reds, but I'll still enjoy a shitty house wine, or a cheap red while reading in the evening.

And I usually enjoy a crap RPG ahead of a decent game in most other genres. I still miss the good ones though.

Well its an addiction of sorts. In the same way you enjoy cheap beer if you're a beer lover, cheap wine if you're a wine lover, cheap bud if you're a pot smoker, you will still be drawn, as in a mental addiction, to the best of the mediocre RPGs out there, until you find the really great ones.

Alpha Protocol must fall somewhere between Deus Ex 2 on the low side, bt it has to be better, maybe it will be as good as a poor man's Deus Ex. I think the most important aspect is gameplay, whether it will have multiple solutions, an expansion of choices. Can quests be solved by stealth, hacking, or diplomacy/wits besides combat? That will make up for a lot of other miscues if they are.

 

[elander_]

If I'm in a waste facility, however, it'd make sense if all I ever found was shit. Now you try.

Kid it's MCA doing the writing. Nothing more needs to be said. Just wait and see.

 

[Qwinn]

The point is that if you hype three choices per dialog segment you should have more than 3x as much dialog. That's what a dialog TREE means, things branch out. By the second segment you theoretically would have 9 different situations

Which is a wonderful explanation of -why- the sort of dialogue trees you're looking for are completely utterly impossible. It will never happen. Ever. Just a -third- segment would require 27 different branching pathways. Why not create 27 different games for that much effort?

(fewer because branches can fuse back together which is OK).

No, bullshit, it is NOT OK for you or other whiny codexers. "Fusing back together" is the same thing accomplished when you're doing 3x the dialogue - it's what ME did. But that wasn't good enough. And if they extended it out one branch and gave you 9x the dialogue which then fused immediately back together, you'd -still- say "there's no consequences!". I mean, if 3x the dialogue that fuses back together but doesn't really change anything is "just flavor", why would 9x the dialogue that fuses back together be better?

Look, as far as branching dialogues go, you will probably -never- see it get much better than ME. None of your favorite old RPG's ever branched more than it did, you know. And the fact that it -did- branch as much as it did is why the game was so short.

But if you're not going to be happy until someone produces a game where every dialogue tree branches -exponentially- at each juncture, I predict a great deal of dissatisfaction in your future. Cause you have nooooo idea how ridiculous what you're demanding is. If you think it'd be easy, try writing just ONE dialogue the way you think it should be, and then try doing it so that it fills up a game that lasts more than 10 minutes.

Qwinn

 

[Jasede]

It's funny, but an alien shooter/RPG with the "Aliens" movie mood would have had the potential to a really amazing game, even if it ended up being "mostly an FPS". Look at Alien versus Predator (the games), for example.

 

[St. Toxic]

Mainly because I like RPGs enough that I still kind of enjoy even crappy ones. It's like red wine - that's my favourite alcohol, and I love the stuff, but that doesn't mean that I have a refined taste for expensive reds. Quite the opposite - sure, I REALLY like good reds, but I'll still enjoy a shitty house wine, or a cheap red while reading in the evening.

I'm happy for you, but that's no reason to argue against a more refined taste. I'm also fairly certain that, being a wine enthusiast, there are plenty of wines even you couldn't force down, and that being the tolerant fucker you are. What happens then? You trash it, make a mental note, and move on to better things. In this case, there's nowhere to move on to, unless we're talking scotch or beer or other assortments of spirit (see: games) untill such a time wine starts running like... well, wine.

What happens if you keep drinking the same shitty wine? It keeps getting shittier, untill you reach the point where it's undrinkable and you pass it up anyway; makes sense to rid yourself of the addiction early, while you can still take it in steps.

Kid

it's MCA doing the writing. Nothing more needs to be said. Just wait and see.

Fuck, what a convincing argument. B)

 

[Forest Dweller]

The point is that if you hype three choices per dialog segment you should have more than 3x as much dialog. That's what a dialog TREE means, things branch out. By the second segment you theoretically would have 9 different situations (fewer because branches can fuse back together which is OK).

If you say you have to only write 3x the amount of dialog (compared to what? Of a single linear path with no choice?) then it means you are doing worse than Bioware... that the 'choices' are only just 'flavor' (Bioware does have some real branching/C&C). You have 3 separate versions of the story like in an interactive DVD and you are choosing for each scene which version you want to watch. It means there is no branching within dialogs.

No, you fucked up your reasoning. It could very well be that there is branching within dialogue, but then some fusing back together (which you admit is okay and standard - it has to be) so that on average, there is 3X dialogue. And 3X is better than every Bio game. They are famous for having the classic arrangement of three lines to pick and then having the NPC give a generic response that can fit all three. So that's just 1X. Of course, they're not all like that, but quite a few are. I'd say on average a Bio game ranges from 1.5X to 2X, after everything averages out.

 

[Longshanks]

What's so bad about the setting? The real world's a pretty cool place.
The spy theme is great for a video game, just as it's been great for many a novel, movie, TV series. Isn't it exciting to finally be getting a spy RPG? So, if your complaint is a general one, I don't get it. If it's specifically about AP's realisation of this theme and setting, limiting yourself to what we know, what is it you don't like about it?

And, how can you not like Thorton? Look how cool he is!

Another new screenshot:

 

[Azrael the cat]

Mainly because I like RPGs enough that I still kind of enjoy even crappy ones. It's like red wine - that's my favourite alcohol, and I love the stuff, but that doesn't mean that I have a refined taste for expensive reds. Quite the opposite - sure, I REALLY like good reds, but I'll still enjoy a shitty house wine, or a cheap red while reading in the evening.

I'm happy for you, but that's no reason to argue against a more refined taste. I'm also fairly certain that, being a wine enthusiast, there are plenty of wines even you couldn't force down, and that being the tolerant fucker you are. What happens then? You trash it, make a mental note, and move on to better things. In this case, there's nowhere to move on to, unless we're talking scotch or beer or other assortments of spirit (see: games) untill such a time wine starts running like... well, wine.

/quote]

Which gets back to my question: what ARE the good wines, i.e good RPG games, coming out this year, and who ARE the good rpg-making developers at the moment? Relatively speaking, of course, and excluding indies (unless they've got a plan to pop out games each year).

 

[MetalCraze]

I'm not talking about subjective things like "trust us, it will be awesome!!!" I'm talking about specific gameplay features and examples.

VD I didn't know you liked minigames instead of skills, sloooow console shooter combat with auto-aim and retarded one-word "dialogues"

If I'm in a waste facility, however, it'd make sense if all I ever found was shit. Now you try.

Kid it's MCA doing the writing. Nothing more needs to be said. Just wait and see.

Yeah I've already seen his writing in KotOR2 - where dialogues had the exactly same responses Bioware-style.
Not mentioning the super cool RPG Descent To Undermountain where MCA star just oh so shined.
Oh look MCA wrote text for PS:T together with Planescape original creators - he is soooo kewl and his games are so good.

http://blogfile.paran.com/BLOG_205498/200903/1237221618_Mar09_03.jpg

Simple logic tells me that threaten and draw gun is the exactly same shit and will lead to the same response.

But damn the game looks fugly and devoid of any atmosphere and style. Obsidian will never learn.

 

[Jedi_Learner]

VD I didn't know you liked minigames instead of skills, sloooow console shooter combat with auto-aim and retarded one-word "dialogues"

Isn't it obvious? If you could see him in real life, you'd properly notice the white stains under his mouth. How many interviews has he done with Obsidian Entertainment, and why is he always there to defend them when they make shitty games?

 

[Forest Dweller]

That sweat looks good. Best rendering of sweat I've seen in a game.

Simple logic tells me that threaten and draw gun is the exactly same shit and will lead to the same response.

Come now, it should be obvious that "threaten" is going to be something more subtle.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Jesus Christ, is that what Mass Effect dialog looked like? What the fuck? For some reason i just assumed it was something akin to Sam and Max, shortened sentences that give away to longer versions when selected, which was annoying as fuck to begin with (i don't care how long Sam's sentences can be, reduce the text size and put the fucker there).

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

That man's chest hair
Is that
The final boss

 

[Jim Cojones]

Jesus Christ, is that what Mass Effect dialog looked like? What the fuck? For some reason i just assumed it was something akin to Sam and Max, shortened sentences that give away to longer versions when selected, which was annoying as fuck to begin with (i don't care how long Sam's sentences can be, reduce the text size and put the fucker there).

No, it isn't like in ME. Bio game had short sentences more or less resembling the beginning of the dialogue lines that followed them. But (if it can be told just by looking at one picture) Alpha Protocol seems to be better in this regard because you're sure what Thorton will do if you tell him to draw a gun, while Shepard can do the same after choosing an option that looks quite neutral.

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

If I understand the three JBs correctly Jack Bauer would threaten Jason (durhur) would simply get straight to drawing the gun... and 007 would?

 

[MetalCraze]

Come now, it should be obvious that "threaten" is going to be something more subtle.

And? The response will be the same most likely "uh ok ok I'll tell you!"
Also how do you know that "Threaten" doesn't mean "draw gun"? After all the main source of inspiration as per Avellone was Mass Effect and Fahrenheit for this stupid shit. OMG MCA IZ GOD HE DID A SINGLE GOOD GAME 10 YEARZ AGO - no matter than both "inspirations" are known for having the exactly same options hidden behind different words and MCA is known for this very biowarian fuck up in KotOR2.