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Why AP is FAIL: 2 reasons

MetalCraze

Arcane
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Except that as you know during hype you always show the best parts of your game and even make them look better than they actually are.
Either Obsidian incredibly fails at hype or that "pick up dialogue" (which actually featured two different ways of how it went and was fully posted - except choices didn't affect anything besides "failure/victory") is indeed the best writing of secondary characters they came up with - and it looked like something Gaider would write.
And knowing previous Obsidian game hype - secondary characters may easily end up like that.
 

MasPingon

Arcane
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May 13, 2007
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Castle Rock
Cloaked Figure said:
and btw..i despise the codex hivemind mentality..i think that FO1 wasn't that great, and hate pre-98 RPG's. so your comparison does not make sense since i am completely different than the tools here who parrot VD non-stop.

That doesn't count, you are an idiot
 

elander_

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Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
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What they did was showing you how the dialog system works. I didn't enjoyed Planescape or Fallout just by looking at a few lines of dialog. There's no two/three line piece of dialog that would give me the idea of of what is playing these games.
 

AlaCarcuss

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BrizVegas, Australis Penal Colony
skyway said:
I didn't see RE5 so I can comment - but design can easily help any visually/technically outdated game. Blizzard games are another proof. VtmB which still looks good is another proof. Alpha Protocol just looks bland - full of locations that was seen over and over again in games.

Yep, I know what you mean. I wasn't really refering to how bad AP looks, just how amazing RE5 looks on so-called outdated hardware. To get this sord of detail and fidelity out of a 4 year old system must'a taken some special skillz - though Capcom's always been pretty good at that.

Really, it's one area developers like Obsidien should take note of. It's a bit like the old (early) dos days when programmers had limited RAM and CPU cycles to work with and everything was done in assembler. Forces you to make the most of what limited resources you have. Maybe Obsidien should hire some console devs (only for the artwork and graphix of course) :wink:
 

MetalCraze

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elander_ said:
What they did was showing you how the dialog system works. I didn't enjoyed Planescape or Fallout just by looking at a few lines of dialog. There's no two/three line piece of dialog that would give me the idea of of what is playing these games.

You are forgetting that the target audience of PS:T was bookworms that like well-written literature, while the target audience of AP is dumb 15 years old kids - as said by Feargus himself (if what other hype tells is not enough)

Hümmelgümpf said:
skyway said:
except choices didn't affect anything besides "failure/victory"\
And that's totally not enough.

It was not enough as a good example of dialogue and different outcomes. Hey even ME does that.
 

elander_

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skyway said:
You are forgetting that the target audience of PS:T was bookworms that like well-written literature, while the target audience of AP is dumb 15 years old kids - as said by Feargus himself (if what other hype tells is not enough)

Your point was that AP dialog is bland because of the two three lines you saw. That's not a way to evaluate a games dialog and was never their intention for you to see their best dialog (unlike Bethesda who said that nuked town would be a example of c&c).

About what Fergus say in an hype interview i don't give a shit. It looks like you are being selective here. I trust MCA can do interesting dialogs that please both PC players and consoles players (does anyone has doubts of MCA writing capabilities?). Let's call this failure when we have a demo to play or something more substantial shall we?
 
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Skyway not jumping to conclusions and treating every single prototype build and preview to be the final version would be like an Arab not strapping dynamite to their bodies in the name of Allah.
 

MetalCraze

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Urkanistan
Hümmelgümpf said:
skyway said:
Hümmelgümpf said:
skyway said:
except choices didn't affect anything besides "failure/victory"\
And that's totally not enough.

It was not enough as a good example of dialogue and different outcomes. Hey even ME does that.
No, you can't fail in ME. That wouldn't be Xtreme™, would it?

You can fail to have sex with alien chick if you choose not to.

elander_ said:
Your point was that AP dialog is bland because of the two three lines you saw
2-3 lines? More like 20+ lines and all of them are bland. That's not a good way to hype writing you know.

It looks like you are being selective here.
Me? Hahaha:

About what Fergus say in an hype interview i don't give a shit.

Speaking about hiding the head in the sand and selective reading.

I trust MCA can do interesting dialogs that please both PC players and consoles players (does anyone has doubts of MCA writing capabilities?).
You can't please retards that don't want to read and RPG players who like good writing at the same time - even a simple logic lets you understand that.
Not mentioning a retarded "dialogue" system that is already in the game. About which writing are we talking if "dialogue" options are consisting of a single fucking word?
 

Dionysus

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AlaCarcuss said:
I think we're just going to have to accept that the 'old-days' are gone forever. There will never be any more games like the FO's, PST, Arcarnum etc. Not from mainstream developers anyway. It's a different world now.
None of those were mainstream games. Alpha Protocol is a multiplatform action RPG. There are still PC-exclusive niche RPGs in the works.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the game, but I don't usually get hung up on style factors like graphics or writing. I don't care if the graphics are boring or if they use a keyword system (as long as there are some decent choices as some of the screenshots and interviews imply). I think a lot of people are overly concerned about the dialog considering the type of game that this will be. I'm more concerned about whether Obsidian can put together decent levels with multiple paths and emergent gameplay. It sounds like they are trying, so I'll withhold judgment.
 

ghostdog

Arcane
Patron
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Dec 31, 2007
Messages
11,115
Wyrmlord said:
Actually, why even bother rationalizing?

Alpha Protocol LOOKS boring. It's impossible to even get any good vibes from watching the vids of the game. It just looks so dull. Swinging on a rope in a Middle Eastern area, dealing with a Chinese official at gunpoint - none of those things seem remotely interesting.

Everything I see of Protocol, I just feel, "God, how incredibly dull."
This
 

Longshanks

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Messages
897
Location
Australia.
skyway said:
Except that as you know during hype you always show the best parts of your game and even make them look better than they actually are.
Voice work is one of the last things to be completed and fully integrated into a game.

skyway said:
Either Obsidian incredibly fails at hype or that "pick up dialogue" (which actually featured two different ways of how it went and was fully posted - except choices didn't affect anything besides "failure/victory") is indeed the best writing of secondary characters they came up with - and it looked like something Gaider would write.
Maybe it is. And I agree that it's underwhelming (as are the brief bits in the trailer). But, this was shown at a very early stage; very first preview if I recall. It's fair to question how impactful and differentiated the various stances will be, but not fair to dismiss them based on one, very early example.

Given that the game's an actionRPG, something we've known for some time, there's no confirmed information that is overly negative. Overall, the PR has been quite dull, and has definitely not focused on parts of the game I'd like to see, but PR's like that. We all know that Bethesda didn't show any Fallout 3 dialogue, or anything non-combat at all, till very late, and look how good that game turned out :wink:.

You may well be right, AP may be a dumbed down piece of shit with retarded dialogue, no C&C and crappy action. There sure are some signs that point to this. But your certainty of it is born of a clear desire to bitch/whine/bash, not on rational thought. I'm still holding out some hope for decent action, good amount of different approaches and some quality dialogue. I'm not expecting, or even seriously hoping for a masterpiece, or even something of Bloodlines' quality. Just something that is at least worth playing.
 

elander_

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skyway said:
2-3 lines? More like 20+ lines and all of them are bland. That's not a good way to hype writing you know.

It could have been 20+ which is bullshit, it doesn't say anything.

Speaking about hiding the head in the sand and selective reading.

You say hype is all crap and then try to take conclusions from it when it pleases you. That's selective reading.

You can't please retards that don't want to read and RPG players who like good writing at the same time - even a simple logic lets you understand that.

Console games have bad writing because they are badly written. Console players aren't all shooter players and PC players aren't all bookworms.

If that's the way you think then your idea of AP is already made when they said it was a console game.

Not mentioning a retarded "dialogue" system that is already in the game. About which writing are we talking if "dialogue" options are consisting of a single fucking word?

So? Ultima 7 has one line dialogs too. You see what your character is going to say after you click on it. I'm not very happy with this but i won't say it's a failure.
 

St. Toxic

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elander_ said:
There's no two/three line piece of dialog that would give me the idea of of what is playing these games.

elander_ said:
It could have been 20+ which is bullshit, it doesn't say anything.

Some people can tell shit from candy by smell alone. Others have to put their face in it to know for sure. Then there's the group that needs a taste or two to figure it out. Lastly we have those who're convinced it's candy, no matter what their senses (should) tell them.

What I usually do, protip, is examine my surroundings. If I'm in a candy-store, chances of me finding candy are improved. If I'm in a waste facility, however, it'd make sense if all I ever found was shit. Now you try. :cool:
 
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I think one thing being left out is that most of the pro-Obsidian camp, myself included if I can be in that camp, are very heavily couching their praise in relative terms. As in 'better than the other crap coming out at the moment'. That isn't exactly brimming with anticipation - its a sad reflection of the state of the media, and picking which out of a very poor crop one is likely to take up in the next year. Because frankly, as much as I might prefer my old collection of Arcanum, PS:T, Deus Ex, SS2, FO and Bloodlines, there's only so many fucking times we can replay the same games. After a while it's either 'buy a new game', or give up gaming. I don't doubt that many old rpg fans HAVE given up gaming in despair, and for good reason. But if we were to give up gaming, we wouldn't be at this site.

Which gets me to my question - I absolutely accept all the criticisms people are making of AP. It still seems like it might be fun enough, but yes, I accept that the minigames are retarded, Obsidian doesn't have a good record at combat romps, it seems combat-oriented (as everything is these days, outside of Civ-type games) and Obsidian lacks experience in the genre. The setting though is something I quite like, but each to their own on that. Anyway, the question: what ARE the good games coming out in the next couple of years. Seriously, I'd love to hear that, especially from Skyway. Skyway mentioned in another thread that Jason Anderson could do so much better than going to InXile - really? Which companies would those be? I'd love to know, because frankly I'd be among the first to ditch AP for some good late-90s-esque intelligent gaming. So which games coming out this/next year, and which existing companies should I be looking at?

In other genres, maybe I can see some hope. I've been a fan of both rts and turn-based civ-gaming for a while, and I fall into the pro-Blizzard camp on that, even re WC3 (won't get into the debate here, but my reasoning was basically that it brought good guerilla-tactics into the staple for rts, with undead not being able to win a standing fight against equal-tech opponents, yet being very strong via their ability to harass and avoid direct combat through hit-and-run and flanking tactics. That and the use of timing - from even mid-ranked b-net games you'd go in thinking 'I want the main battle to be at the 3min mark' or similar). But even we accept Blizz as a 'good games developer', they're not exactly a company that satisfies the old rpg market. They make good games for their audience, but it would seem silly to go 'AP is crap because Diablo/SC2 will be much better'.

The same applies for any other maker I can think of. To my knowledge there isn't a new civ out next year, but even so, it isn't really going to satisfy my RPG craving. I'm looking forward to the indies, but frankly they're an unknown quantity, and I don't believe that the market is such that you will get a massive level of indies filling the gaming whole. Maybe a good game every few years from VD and a couple of others, but not enough to constitute a hobby by itself.

So, in a relative sense, what are these great games that I should be buying isntead of AP? I'm not saying this to diss anyone - I'm actually serious. Am I missing something about the gaming market?
 

St. Toxic

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Azrael the cat said:
I think one thing being left out is that most of the pro-Obsidian camp, myself included if I can be in that camp, are very heavily couching their praise in relative terms. Because frankly, as much as I might prefer my old collection of Arcanum, PS:T, Deus Ex, SS2, FO and Bloodlines, there's only so many fucking times we can replay the same games. After a while it's either 'buy a new game', or give up gaming.

Why not just take a hiatus from RPG's? It's not like you have to force-feed yourself shit all year round or give up RPG's for ever.
 
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Strap Yourselves In Codex+ Now Streaming!
I have to agree with those who say that the game just looks utterly bland. I cant be really arsed to even care about things like gameplay mechanics, writing (though those suck too, propably).

It just looks so fucking boring.

Now the Aliens RPG was something i was cautiosly looking forward to. Too bad it got canned...
 

Talonfire

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Dec 18, 2008
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Why even go out of your way to research this game? It's looked like crap since day one. A generic action movie storyline saddled into an RPG environment, oh my freaking God... AWESOME!
 

Thrasher

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Jan 17, 2008
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Put me in the "appears too bland" camp.

But it could just be bad promotion/hype.

Visually it certainly is less distinctive than Deus Ex . ;)
 

sheek

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Longshanks said:
1. Agree that the trailer sucks. But, feel you may be overstating its importance.

2. Not sure what you're getting at here. Is it that 3 alternate dialogues is not enough? That it seems superficial? That the interviewer is stupid?

Different trees for each stance in all conversations, if that is what they were to deliver, would provide more variation of dialogue based on choice, than most RPGs. Of course, more choice is expected within each stance. Not suggesting dialogue and the level of choice will be brilliant, or even that each tree will be written three times, just do not see how the comments quoted make the game an auto-fail in this aspect.
The point is that if you hype three choices per dialog segment you should have more than 3x as much dialog. That's what a dialog TREE means, things branch out. By the second segment you theoretically would have 9 different situations (fewer because branches can fuse back together which is OK).

If you say you have to only write 3x the amount of dialog (compared to what? Of a single linear path with no choice?) then it means you are doing worse than Bioware... that the 'choices' are only just 'flavor' (Bioware does have some real branching/C&C). You have 3 separate versions of the story like in an interactive DVD and you are choosing for each scene which version you want to watch. It means there is no branching within dialogs.

I doubt it will be like this. My point is how retarded the PR is doesn't bode well for the game.
 

ricolikesrice

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May 11, 2007
Messages
1,231
dont really think AP will be good either, then again it could be superawesome mechanics/gameplaywise and i still wouldnt care because the setting (bourne hollywood bullshit ) turns me REALLY off.

however to be fair MOTB also looked like utter shit because obsidian sucks hard at making trailers and MOTB also sounded like utter shit in previews/interviews. and we all know how it turned out quite the opposite.

so while the game certainly looks as dull and bland as it gets i think for those who unlike me arent completely put off by the bourne bullshit they should keep an eye open.
i mean it cant be worse than SoZ, can it ?
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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Messages
24,939
"No, you can't fail in ME'

Don't lie. You can.

Anyways, AP looks to be an alright. Won't be 'best evar'; but it'll be fun.
 

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