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Why did Real Time Strategy genre die out?

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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I would say that playing a MOBA is akin to playing poker- any retard can win once in a while because he got lucky, but being good enough to calculate your odds properly while also judging the human factor of the other players is an artform.

It's funny to see that analogy, because i always hated all forms of gambling, and even in poker i've always been skeptical how much "skill" actually factors in that game.

Chess impresses me. Poker bores me to shit.

Likewise, it seems to me MOBAs are just total shit based on those descriptions.
 

Blutwurstritter

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I would say that playing a MOBA is akin to playing poker- any retard can win once in a while because he got lucky, but being good enough to calculate your odds properly while also judging the human factor of the other players is an artform. Obviously the MOBA also has the dexterity factor of precise timing and positioning.

The thing is, if you suck at a MOBA, as long as you're trying to get better, losing doesn't feel that bad because you learn something. "Oh wow that character is so good, I'll try him next" and then you get stomped as that character and know a way to fight against him next time. You can also learn a ton about the game by spectating before even playing, and it will help you out immensely.

If you suck at SC or AoE, it probably means someone sent an army to destroy you that was 3 times bigger than what you had, or killed half your workers with one or two units or a cannon rush. There's nothing to learn from that. You can't turn around and try to harass someone with a rush yourself because you'll kill like 3 workers, forget to build 8 and get supply blocked because you were too distracted. You just need to practice until you can micro well enough to match them. Your decisions and knowledge don't matter at all if you can't actually accomplish the plan you chose. Knowing that splitting units to dodge AoE attacks is effective is utterly pointless if you can't execute well enough anyways.
That is a horrible description, unless mobas like Dota have changed enormously in the last 10 years (I've played WC3 Dota around 2006-2013). The main reason why it is much easier to get into the game is the simple fact that you play 5 vs 5. This allows you to mix new players with experienced ones. They can make up for beginners mistakes and teach them the ropes (typically in a very unfriendly and forceful manner). If mobas were 1 on 1 you'd have exactly the same problem with demotivation as in other strategy games, as noobs would get crushed ~100% of the time when facing a better player. The team aspect makes mobas easier to get into and more forgiving. Its also easier to balance skill levels when its 5 vs 5. This also prevents long frustrating loosing streaks, since the other 4 players will carry you to victory once in a while, even if you are a poor player.

The biggest factor of luck is whether you get good teammates when playing public, but the game play and mechanics are nowhere near poker. With a stable team you could easily get consistent performances in Dota. I agree with the learning curve aspect, which also benefits from 5 vs 5 since you can also watch better players ingame and learn from them.
 

Damned Registrations

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If you can't actually accomplish the plan you chose, your decisions and knowledge just might not be very good. I don't see the difference to skill issues in other games, including in turnbased strategy games. A strong player will optimise their economy better and have more troops, and on top of that control those troops better.
Imagine if in order to build settlers in Civilization you needed to type 85 words per minute. Does that mean you're a skilled strategist because you 'chose' to be a warmonger and never build a settler? Or does it mean you had no other options? Would it make the game better by raising the skill cap?

It's funny to see that analogy, because i always hated all forms of gambling, and even in poker i've always been skeptical how much "skill" actually factors in that game.
I felt the same way, but it's undeniable that some people can make a living doing it, even playing online when there's no 'tells' to exploit. The margins are slim to be sure, but if you know what cards are left in the deck and what that means your opponents might have and you might have, that's a skill for sure.

The main reason why it is much easier to get into the game is the simple fact that you play 5 vs 5.
You can play 4v4 in most RTS games as well. Same thing happens in both genres: If you're shit, someone on the other team (and probably your own team) will notice and pick on you. Like I said before, the difference is that in a moba you can learn from that pretty much every time, outside some shit that might go over your head, like ward placement. You won't learn anything from getting rushed down before you're ready in an RTS because it's just a straight up dexterity issue at that point. You may as well go practice some mouse accuracy drills instead of the game.

The biggest factor of luck is whether you get good teammates when playing public, but the game play and mechanics are nowhere near poker.
This is true, but the part about it being extremely knowledge based and requiring excellent memory and recall is the same. One of the biggest advantages you can get playing dota is knowing exactly how much damage another player can deal to you with their spells. It means what appears to be 50/50 odds to a newbie is revealed to be 80/20 odds to an expert. There's still some uncertainty; maybe they roll a critical hit, maybe their teammate happens to be hidden close by (another factor you can mitigate with good memory and attention) but if you at least know that you'll survive their entire suite of spells +3 attacks, or that your speed advantage means you can hit them twice as they run back to the tower, or that their spell has a 6 second cooldown and you can engage and escape before it comes back... that's where the game is won and lost in the early stages. Which, btw, are pretty much 1v1 or 2v2 duels anyways, and you can absolutely get beaten badly enough at that stage to lose the whole game for your team if everyone else is at a deadlock.

Moba's are popular because the game fundamentally rewards gameplay experience and knowledge more than pretty much any other type of game. Your ability to theory craft is incredibly important. It seems like it'd be important in an RTS, but it's really not because any situation where a given strategy should win can simply be changed to another with enough micro. Do banelings work well vs small, fragile units? Well they're supposed to, but the answer is actually that they work well vs players that can't split their units apart at a momet's notice. This also means that as you rise through the ranks, things you took the time to learn before become not just irrelevant, but outright wrong.
 

Harthwain

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I feel that the old schood style RTS got its peak with the holy trio of Starcraft, AoE and C&C (sorry never played TA) and i don't see how you can improve on this formula without major changes (Rise of Nations was good though).
I'd say Warcraft 3 was the peak of RTS genre (for Blizzard at least), not Starcraft. It really expanded upon the idea of hero units and abilities. I also liked how they tweaked the economy.
 

Lyric Suite

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I liked the upkeep feature because it allowed people to make a come back even if you lost a skirmish, at least at the level of skill i used to play at not sure if it worked like that at the pro-level.

WC3 is the last time i devoted myself to an online RTS, only exception being Dawn of War. I missed CoH because i was skeptical about an RTS with no base building and already explained all the ways SC2 pissed me which is where i gave up on the genre.
 
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I fucking hated that upkeep shit in WC3, seemed like I'm just being punished for having good macro. Also not a fan of hero units. SC2 definitely suits me better.
 

Harthwain

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I fucking hated that upkeep shit in WC3, seemed like I'm just being punished for having good macro.
Upkeep was part of it and I think it was done very well. Allowing the player to catch up by getting a bit more resources before getting his army back up was a good idea to prevent snowballing. Another good thing - compared to Starcraft - was that your mine had limited capacity in terms of workers to operate optimally, so you couldn't just flood the mine the way you could flood the mineral fields with workers. Instead the focus was more on the military/combat, rather than on macro, and I liked that.

Also not a fan of hero units.
Hero units turned games into more interesting affairs than just unit-to-unit basis as they allowed you to impact the battlefield in an unique manner from get-go. It also helped that there was three to pick from, so you could decide which hero to bring with you and in which order.

SC2 definitely suits me better.
Huh. I always thought Starcraft 2 couldn't compare well to either Starcraft 1 or Warcraft 3. The story took complete nosedive, the replayability of the campaign was poorly handled, most of the new units felt uninspired (same with heroes, especially after Warcraft 3), etc. There were some improvements here and there over Starcraft 1, but all in all it was a huge disappointment for me as a big fan of Starcraft 1.
 

Blutwurstritter

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Hm, now that I think about it are there any rts games (without mods) with ranked online mode where 4vs4 or higher is the default mode? Does Starcraft 2 have ranked team games or only a 1on1 ladder?

I know that team games are quite popular in SupCom FAF and DoW II elite mod, but those are both mods. I think Dow II without mods also had matchmaking from 1vs1 to 3vs3 but I not 100% sure anymore. I've never tried Dow1 or any CoH online so any input on those would be welcome.
 

Eldrin

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May 28, 2024
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Really wish devs trying to make games in the RTS genre would take at least some inspiration from Warcraft 3 - it was a cult classic for a reason. For example Spellforce 3, it was already very different from it's predecessors, so why not just adapt the tried-and-true base building formula from W3 instead of the weird capture point/outpost system and worker management.
 

ind33d

Learned
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Can Koko the gorilla play a game? If the answer is no, it's not getting funded. That's the target audience of "Earth"
 
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It runs like shit _without_ healthy amounts of dust/smoke etc. Can't underscore this enough.
When dark swarm is keystone in BW...

As I understand it's because of very aggressive anti map hack system, it rapes CPUs when there's so many players in game. Or so I've been told.
 

vota DC

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I feel that the old schood style RTS got its peak with the holy trio of Starcraft, AoE and C&C (sorry never played TA) and i don't see how you can improve on this formula without major changes (Rise of Nations was good though).
I'd say Warcraft 3 was the peak of RTS genre (for Blizzard at least), not Starcraft. It really expanded upon the idea of hero units and abilities. I also liked how they tweaked the economy.
I don't know. It was fun but an abomination for RTS because the creeping system.
 

tritosine2k

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Dec 29, 2010
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It runs like shit _without_ healthy amounts of dust/smoke etc. Can't underscore this enough.
When dark swarm is keystone in BW...

As I understand it's because of very aggressive anti map hack system, it rapes CPUs when there's so many players in game. Or so I've been told.
They say it isn't even multicore... 3D is just (...) for unit count ( even translucency unless it's ground up).
 

Lyric Suite

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I fucking hated that upkeep shit in WC3, seemed like I'm just being punished for having good macro. Also not a fan of hero units. SC2 definitely suits me better.

Like i said, without upkeep losing a single skirmish would have meant instant game over. Maybe that's fine in a game like Starcraft which is more fast paced but WC3 was intentionally designed to be more of a slow burn. Like i pointed out earlier, during the first two minutes of the game you are essentially locked into producing your hero and unless the enemy base is really close the next several minutes are spend creeping around. So aside for some scouting and maybe a bit of early harassement that's a solid five minutes you are spending basically playing single player and then maybe you get into your first big skirmish and suddenly you lost too many units and the match is basically over because there is no way for you to recoup from that. Wouldn't make for a good game since it would be the same outcome every match. Spend five minutes setting up your base, creeping and scouting around then lose the first fight and quit, rinse and repeat for every match.

Personally, i think WC3 is one of the most brilliant games Blizzard has ever designed, possibly the best they ever did. It's a fast paced RTS game with integrated RPG elements that even plays like an RPG during online matches. It's fine to prefer Starcraft as a matter of principle but WC3 feels more daring and it's more impressive that they were able to pull it off. It was a big gamble for them try something so radically different and counter intuitive given the nature of RTS games.

Even if you prefer the more macro oriented nature of Starcraft you have to appreciate how WC3 managed to really set itself apart from that, where as it could have easily just been a fantasy reskin of the former.
 

Blutwurstritter

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Heroes and leveling were handled brilliantly in WC3. It also made other units less expendable since you wouldn't want to feed experience points to the enemy hero. Systems like the leveling from WC3 and the mass reclaim of dead units from SupCom are two features that I'd like to see more often in rts games. They punish mindless unit spam and allow a recovery by superior tactical play, even if the enemy has a lead in production/economy.
 

Lyric Suite

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Upkeep was part of it and I think it was done very well. Allowing the player to catch up by getting a bit more resources before getting his army back up was a good idea to prevent snowballing.

Snowballing can also come from the fact some races can obtain an expansion faster than others. So the race that can get the expansion faster than anybody else would get a massive advantage as the window of opportunity their opponent has to punish them would be very short (and in WC3 it's not easy to go all in like in Starcraft). Get an expo as human, tower up and it's check mate every time.

Upkeep also opened for some interesting strategy, since pooling your resources and saving up gold were valid tactics. It wasn't as simple as: get more gold, more gold more units, more units bigger army, whoever gets the biggest army (or was able to tech up faster) wins. Don't forget also that the game had other ways to obtain gold and there were other resources you had to worry about, such as XP for heroes from creeping, control of contested zones in the map etc. Turtling is something that could never happen in WC3 because if you decided to do it the other guy could just take control of the map and beat your ass with higher level heroes and better items.
 

Lyric Suite

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Heroes and leveling were handled brilliantly in WC3. It also made other units less expendable since you wouldn't want to feed experience points to the enemy hero. Systems like the leveling from WC3 and the mass reclaim of dead units from SupCom are two features that I'd like to see more often in rts games. They punish mindless unit spam and allow a recovery by superior tactical play, even if the enemy has a lead in production/economy.

Not just the heroes but the items, the shops, the tavern etc. It was a perfect integration of a very small scale but fully complete RPG system coexisting within a larger RTS backdrop.
 

Johannes

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If you can't actually accomplish the plan you chose, your decisions and knowledge just might not be very good. I don't see the difference to skill issues in other games, including in turnbased strategy games. A strong player will optimise their economy better and have more troops, and on top of that control those troops better.
Imagine if in order to build settlers in Civilization you needed to type 85 words per minute. Does that mean you're a skilled strategist because you 'chose' to be a warmonger and never build a settler? Or does it mean you had no other options? Would it make the game better by raising the skill cap?
That's a retarded analogy
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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If you can't actually accomplish the plan you chose, your decisions and knowledge just might not be very good. I don't see the difference to skill issues in other games, including in turnbased strategy games. A strong player will optimise their economy better and have more troops, and on top of that control those troops better.
Imagine if in order to build settlers in Civilization you needed to type 85 words per minute. Does that mean you're a skilled strategist because you 'chose' to be a warmonger and never build a settler? Or does it mean you had no other options? Would it make the game better by raising the skill cap?
That's a retarded analogy
How? Your argument is that you have a shit strategy if you choose to try use say, zerglings to harass the opponent when you can't handle doing that and keeping up your macro and scouting and so forth. But doing both of those things properly at the same time is very demanding in a way that has nothing to do with with knowledge. It's just a fucking dexterity test, like needing to type fast. It's a skill that can be effectively trained without ever playing the game, like typing fast.

The retarded analogy was comparing macro in an RTS, that requires manual dexterity, to macro in a turn based game, which requires game knowledge. Nobody is going to lose a game of Civilization because they have arthritis.
 

Johannes

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Multitasking in rts is 80% about game knowledge. You can't put a professional pianist who does way more "apm" when playing piano, to an rts game, and expect them to do well before they learn how the game works.

Or how would you train people in RTS controls, without having them play an RTS?
 

Borelli

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I feel that the old schood style RTS got its peak with the holy trio of Starcraft, AoE and C&C (sorry never played TA) and i don't see how you can improve on this formula without major changes (Rise of Nations was good though).
I'd say Warcraft 3 was the peak of RTS genre (for Blizzard at least), not Starcraft. It really expanded upon the idea of hero units and abilities. I also liked how they tweaked the economy.
I don't consider Warcraft 3 to be part of the old school style, it went for something new and it did it well, although everyone then wanted to copy it.
 

Damned Registrations

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Or how would you train people in RTS controls, without having them play an RTS?
It's pretty much all mouse accuacy and speed, aside from learning the proper way to setup the controls and options to un-gimp the UI as best you can. Something like Osu! (which a fair number of Starcraft streamers were playing when it came out) does the exact same thing. FPS games as well, though not as focused since that also involved movement and a greater focus on seeing shit.

The idea that it's all about game knowledge is ridiculous. You can acquire all the needed game knowledge to overwhelm yourself by reading a 10 point bullet list of shit you should do while playing. Even the fucking pros can't manage to properly scout while playing because they're too busy doing other shit, half of it just arbitrary busywork with the economy.

There are basically two areas where game knowledge in RTS is particularly deep and hard to master: precise ways to cheese or counter being cheesed that involve very specific positions and timings on specific maps. And second; being able to work out the build order of your opponent by reading their spent resources and counting their workers/units/etc. Neither of those things are going to have anywhere close to the kind of impact getting shut down in the first 5 minutes by effective harassment will, or being able to multitask a dozen spellcasters in a lategame fight.

The idea that doing something like the immortal/reaver transport shuffle is 'game knowledge' is fucking mind boggling. You think you can just pick that up by watching a tutorial? That shit is 100% dexterity and muscle memory.
 

Johannes

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Training your mouse accuracy ofc helps, but it's not the meat of the game at all. Like if you play football, weight training won't make you good at it, but can give you an edge over people of similar skill.

Transport shuffle is not multitasking, that's simply MICRO. In that there's a big dexterity component ofc, but also a big game knowledge component in knowing what kind of micro exactly suits best the situation at hand.

If you wanted to, you could easily boil down economy management in Civilization too into 10 bullet points. Doesn't mean there aren't nuances beyond that.
 

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