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Why did Real Time Strategy genre die out?

Vic

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Now that I'm approaching my late 30s, I've started playing RTS again to help combat age related cognitive decline.
if you experience cognitive decline in your 30s it's not age related but lifestyle related

it is said that men reach mental maturity only around age 40
 
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This was also readily apparent back in BW when half the custom map games were basically just stripping out any need to expand or defend against a rush, turning the game into "Who can design and pilot the best army?"
What maps are you thinking of? Fastest map at least doesn't make the game less rushy or less eco focused, it just makes the eco more one dimensional. Which makes the battles more straightforward as well, as you're not fighting across a whole map trying to maneuver to attack expansions and defend your own, just trying to straight up kill your opponents army or snipe their workers all stacked together in 1 spot.

But I'm no scbw custom games aficionado, maybe that's not the kind of map you had in mind at all.



And I agree a game of one off battles in total war style, but with design from the ground up made with multiplayer in mind, could be interesting - but probably not a blockbuster hit even if done well.
Wargame: Red Dragon and WARNO litterally does this. And they are popular enough. They allow you to build a deck of unit card and than choose in which order units will be coming in. Fighting for zones across the maps. With atleast two game mode. Conquest and Annihilation.

Eugene Systems are amongst the biggest company still delivering rts( or rtt ) in the last decade at a steady pace. And you autists don't even mention them in the thread.
 

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Has there actually been a decline in RTS games?
Or isn't it more that the RTS fanbase hasn't really grown as much as other fanbases, thus giving the (wrong) impression of a decline?

I ask because RTS games are absolutely still coming out, some indies, some mid-sized devs and some (few) larger ones.
A good amount of those fail commercially, but some can make a living from it.
And whenever you see an RTS failing, you can absolutely name very good reasons for it, none of which are "genre is dead" (which is only an excuse for bad decisions).
The last three sentences applied the same way 10+ years ago.

What has become different is the gaming landscape around - and that some games/brands are so entrenched that especially breaking into the multiplayer scene has become prohobitively resource-intensive for the vast majority of devs (similar issue to MMOs IMO).
What has also become different is that production costs have risen massively - you could never pull off eg. a cutscene-driven story like C&C had at the same (inflation-adjusted) cost.
I think especially the last point might have had more of an impact than any "genre popularity decline". But I fully expect AI to alleviate quite a bit here (as a tool used right, it can increase the productivity of any designer/coder/artist/community manager).

But all in all, this discussion reminds me a lot of the "PC gaming is dead!" discourse of the past, where all statistics showed an absolute growth in numbers, with only the relative percentage compared to mobile """"gaming"""" (can't add enough "", amirite?) shrinking.
 

tritosine2k

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It grew because tower defense but TD is very grid-dy. Not to mention cant hold a candle to traditional RTS walling. 2.5D didn't improve in gfx segment overall bc. 3D elements would be cross-disciplinary and that's hard and gfx devs are almost tribal when it comes to D-s. And with a few exceptions they put up with running like *** so 3D is corridory in 2000s and close up 2010+.
 

ghardy

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Do you like Total War?
A long time ago, I played through the Grand Campaigns a few times in Medieval 2. It's the only Total War game I've played. Some of the mechanics were quirky, but it was enjoyable overall. It wasn't RTS. At the time I would have said it was Turn-Based Strategy combined with Real-Time Battle.
 

Vic

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Has there actually been a decline in RTS games?
yes

Or isn't it more that the RTS fanbase hasn't really grown as much as other fanbases, thus giving the (wrong) impression of a decline?
no

I ask because RTS games are absolutely still coming out, some indies, some mid-sized devs and some (few) larger ones.
there are no AAA RTS coming out like they did in the 00s
And whenever you see an RTS failing, you can absolutely name very good reasons for it, none of which are "genre is dead" (which is only an excuse for bad decisions).
they fail because RTS was to a large degree about multiplayer. many considered the campaign to just be a tutorial for mp. competitive players moved on to mobas and such, less demand, genre stagnated. there is still demand from offline players of course and that is being catered to by smaller studios, but it's nothing like in the heyday of blizzard and co.
 

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there are no AAA RTS coming out like they did in the 00s
The 00s didn't have AAA gaming like we have today.
Release-SC2 wouldn't even count as AAA nowadays. The core team was like 40 developers (~300 with auxiliaries).

A lot of people say AAA back then was in a better state or different somehow, but the fact is that back then there was no AAA that would even remotely be comparable to the 1000+ people productions nowadays.
It's apples and oranges.

AoE4 is likely the closest thing in scale to what would go for AAA back then, it came out recently, has similar player numbers to SC2 (~10k vs 18k), similar developer numbers (Relic has 200-500 employees, unclear how many worked on AoE4) and that's definitely no AAA.

they fail because RTS was to a large degree about multiplayer. many considered the campaign to just be a tutorial for mp. competitive players moved on to mobas and such, less demand, genre stagnated. there is still demand from offline players of course and that is being catered to by smaller studios, but it's nothing like in the heyday of blizzard and co.
You are right that competitive strategy players partly moved on to more "focused" experiences, be it Mobas or other genres with some strategy to it (like World Of Xs) that didn't even bother with single player content.

But otherwise, you have this mostly backwards.
Even back then, most people just played single player (maybe a bit of MP) and then moved on to other games. Take Starcraft + Brood War, for example. ~10 million units sold in ~10 years. Of those, you can estimate about 2-4 million actually participated in multiplayer (optimistic estimation based on what data one can find about the share of MP people in games that have both a strong SP and MP component, which is those 20+%).

Spellforce 3, a game that undoubtedly went under marketing-wise (as in, nobody did any marking for it, nobody talked about it, etc.), based on an IP barely known outside of Germany/Slavs, so everything stacked against it, still sold 400k+ units (not counting the various versions which will add more).

It is largely the SP folks that played every now and again and otherwise moved on, which made those games' money.
In general, MP people don't earn the developers money, they cost them money. In development time and hosting costs. Which makes those half-assed multiplayer attempts (as with SF3) so bewildering to me, but that's another topic.
Recouping that money is no easy task without plastering MTX all over people's faces (or being an MMO with a very different financial structure to begin with).

It was never "many considered the campaign to just be a tutorial for mp" - that has always been just the stance of MP focused people, which always were a minority among all players, albeit the most active minority for obvious reasons.


Now, if you want to say "MP focused RTS games are dying out"... you'd still be wrong.
The combined player numbers of active titles are quite huge - it's just that there are so many more titles than there used to be, with not many more players coming in to make up for that higher number of titles.
Looking only at SC2 multiplayer activity ( SC2Pulse ), you can clearly see that the numbers are declining only extremely slowly since 2016 (an eternity in the gaming world) and I'd bet money the biggest drops coincided with bigger releases in the genre (or are post-release drops, normal for every game).

That's not the sign of a genre in decline, it's looking quite healthy to me.
I'm very curious what numbers Stormgate will pull on actual release, IF (and that might be a big if) they actually manage to develop a good game (which is what most devs aiming at the MP crowd have failed to do).

only casuals played offline
If those "casuals" (dude, actual casuals don't even play RTS games to begin with :lol:) make up 70%+ of your player base, that's who you should cater to.
Kind of obvious, one would think...
 

Vic

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In general, MP people don't earn the developers money, they cost them money. In development time and hosting costs. Which makes those half-assed multiplayer attempts (as with SF3) so bewildering to me, but that's another topic.
that's because you underestimate how many people play RTS for the multiplayer

That's not the sign of a genre in decline, it's looking quite healthy to me.
this-is-fine_custom-b7c50c845a78f5d7716475a92016d52655ba3115.jpg


If you don't want to accept the death of RTS as we knew it in the early 00s you are free to create your own headcanon, I'm not getting paid to convince you otherwise. After Blizzard released WoW me and my friends have moved to MMOs and even my korean friend who was addicted to starcraft stopped eventually playing, it was first dota, then LoL. I don't know anybody who still plays RTS.
 

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that's because you underestimate how many people play RTS for the multiplayer
Where do you think the numbers I mentioned are coming from? What, you think I just know active player numbers or sales numbers of games I don't care much about?
I looked them up :lol:

It is really simple:
1st fact: Every game ever that has had both a reasonably strong SP and MP component had the majority of players either never or barely play the MP.
2nd fact: Purchases of games pay for games' developments (again, unless MTX).
If you rub your brain cells together, I fully believe you can come to the correct conclusion here.

I don't underestimate anything - the numbers are right there for everyone to see, quite indisputable unless you want to dispute all stat counters and sales number aggregates out there. Good luck with that :lol:
You are the one operating on headcanon, giving in to your pessimistic instincts (it's quite human, we're wired that way) instead of doing actual research.
 

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But I fully expect AI to alleviate quite a bit here (as a tool used right, it can increase the productivity of any designer/coder/artist/community manager).
I thought so a few years ago. Haven’t seen any evidence that AI could make it easier to develop RTS.
 

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I don't know what you're looking up but I grew up with RTS and the genre died to moba and competitive mmos.
You are letting anecdotal evidence and personal experience get in the way of actual hard numbers and facts.

That's how smoothbrains operate.
I think you can do better. I hope you can.

But I fully expect AI to alleviate quite a bit here (as a tool used right, it can increase the productivity of any designer/coder/artist/community manager).
I thought so a few years ago. Haven’t seen any evidence that AI could make it easier to develop RTS.
A few years ago, AI was borderline useless.
Nowadays AI can help with various tasks of everyone I mentioned. Coders can use tools such as Copilot to point out errors, make suggestions much quicker than googling everything would and take over some parts of code writing (easily automated stuff like writing tests for functions, etc).
Designers and community managers can benefit strongly from the text parsing (& partially generation) capabilities of AI.
Artists can use AI image editing capabilities to a degree, some intermediate steps can be replaced entirely (instead of an artist spending days for mock-ups and concepts, an AI can do that, things are discussed and then the artist starts the real work from there).

Lots of developers and studios do not use these tools right now, mind you.
People are only slowly warming up to things, but this way of working (AI-assisted expert work) will undoubtedly be the future for "office jobs".

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I don't think AI will be quite as revolutionary to working as some other people, but I definitely believe we'll see a very measurable increase in productivity for those using AI well as a tool.
 
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Now that I'm approaching my late 30s, I've started playing RTS again to help combat age related cognitive decline.
if you experience cognitive decline in your 30s it's not age related but lifestyle related

it is said that men reach mental maturity only around age 40

It was tongue-in-cheek, but...

Your mental peak is definitely in your 20s, maybe even earlier in some cases. Your physical peak is your mental peak. "Maturity" is a nice story we tell ourselves.
 

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
there are no AAA RTS coming out like they did in the 00s
Age of Empires 4 - decent game overall, not quite as good as AoE2 but what is
Company of Heroes 3 - failure, didn't reach the quality of its predecessors and the community was disappointed
Homeworld 3 - absolute disaster, shit and decline in all aspects compared to its predecessors, both story and gameplay

Now idk if they'd qualify as AAA compared to big Ubisoft series like Far Cry and Ass Creed, but they're big budget, made by big companies, and with a big profile.

There's also Men of War 2, a pretty big budget game by a Russki developer (as big of a profile as it gets for Russki games), but that also disappointed fans due to some bizarre design decisions centered around multiplayer.
 

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I looked them up :lol:
next you're going to tell me most people played diablo2 single player too

I don't know what you're looking up but I grew up with RTS and the genre died to moba and competitive mmos.
If you compare player counts of AoE2 Definitive Edition, which is one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) RTS right now, you'll notice that the amount of players in-game as given by Steam is always significantly higher than the amount of players currently in an online match (AoE2 DE has in-built matchmaking and keeps track of all games played so we get pretty accurate numbers).

This implies the majority of players in the game at any given point of time play single player.
In fact, AoE2 DE keeps getting new DLC and while multiplayer people say the amount of new civs added to the game is getting overwhelming, many players have asked for a campaign-focused DLC that just adds new single player campaigns. People love playing campaigns in AoE2. There are more campaign players than multi-players.
 

Vic

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If you compare player counts of AoE2 Definitive Edition, which is one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) RTS right now, you'll notice that the amount of players in-game as given by Steam is always significantly higher than the amount of players currently in an online match (AoE2 DE has in-built matchmaking and keeps track of all games played so we get pretty accurate numbers).
most people may not be playing multiplayer but it is and was a significant percentage. AoE2 DE is a remaster and not a new game developed with new mechanics. a lot of it is quite dated by today's standards. also, since most young people today don't play RTS anymore but moba, battle royale and various other games, that's not really a good example of the RTS landscape of the early 00s, especially not with the behemoth blizzard having had 2 massive IPs under battle.net (plus diablo)
 

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Yeah I'm sure a game rated overwhelmingly positive with thousands of players and regular tournaments with price pools in the tens to hundreds of thousands of euros, sometimes sponsored by big companies like Red Bull, isn't representative :roll:

You call it "dated by today's standards" yet it is probably the most popular RTS currently on the market. Maybe that's why the genre declined - they kept changing "standards" until they left the gold standard of the classics behind.

Here, this is just a list of the top tier tournaments:
https://liquipedia.net/ageofempires/Age_of_Empires_II/S-Tier_Tournaments
 

Vic

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Yeah I'm sure a game rated overwhelmingly positive with thousands of players and regular tournaments with price pools in the tens to hundreds of thousands of euros, sometimes sponsored by big companies like Red Bull, isn't representative :roll:
by the way, that sounds very multiplayer heavy to me ;)

and yeah, it is dated by today's gaming standards if you compare it with other competitive games like PUBG and Leage of Legends. Kids these days just don't want to play something ancient like AOE2

I still like the game tho, I played it a couple months ago, but I played the original version, didn't really like how the UI looked in the DE.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
by the way, that sounds very multiplayer heavy to me ;)
Which just proves my point - a game with a very lively multiplayer scene that has major tournaments funded by corporations as if they were sport events, still has a significant amount of the playerbase more interested in campaigns than multiplayer!
 

Vic

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by the way, that sounds very multiplayer heavy to me ;)
Which just proves my point - a game with a very lively multiplayer scene that has major tournaments funded by corporations as if they were sport events, still has a significant amount of the playerbase more interested in campaigns than multiplayer!
well yeah, but that's the probably older playerbase of aoe, not young people like it was the case during the peak of brood war and co. This is what I mean, sure RTS still has dedicated fans but it's just not even comparable to how it was when the genre peaked. And while you did mention several recent RTS games, none of them are really massive compared to other current games, which again, was different back then, where SO many RTS games were released.

also, I just checked the aoe2 reddit and there does seem to be a lot of discussion about online, somebody even made a moba mod or something for it :P
 

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I think another part of the issue is the decline of map and campaign editors in newer RTS. These were pretty common during the Golden Age when devs used in-house engines, but became rarer after it ended and devs switched to Unity and Unreal. I think part of the longevity of these games has to do with mapping and modding communities continuing to produce content long after the publisher has lost interest.

SC2 had a robust map and campaign editor, with support for separate mod files that WC3 lacked, but the number of custom campaigns was vastly smaller in output compared to BW and WC3. This was likely due to the poor documentation of the editor's capabilities, combined with an unhappy reception to the campaign sucking out enthusiasm to write custom campaign stories from those mappers who paid attention to it.
 

Vic

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SC2 had a robust map and campaign editor, with support for separate mod files that WC3 lacked, but the number of custom campaigns was vastly smaller in output compared to BW and WC3. This was likely due to the poor documentation of the editor's capabilities, combined with an unhappy reception to the campaign sucking out enthusiasm to write custom campaign stories from those mappers who paid attention to it.
btw there are still people making custom maps and campaigns for wc3 https://www.hiveworkshop.com/repositories/maps.564/

I also still have WC3 installed, I think I always had it installed lol and play some shit like tower defense or custom campaigns or just a custom game vs AI every now and then. but the AI sucks ass
 

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Has there actually been a decline in RTS games?
Or isn't it more that the RTS fanbase hasn't really grown as much as other fanbases, thus giving the (wrong) impression of a decline?

I ask because RTS games are absolutely still coming out, some indies, some mid-sized devs and some (few) larger ones.
There have been only Grey Goo and AoE 4 since many years (since SC2) as a clear AA (or adjacent) RTS. And by RTS I mean war base building strategy. Company of Heroes is different kind of strategy.
Beside those there have been only some low budget games like Five Nations or something like that.
What games are coming out? Can you give some examples from last 5 years?
 

MasterofThunder

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In my opinion, it has little to do with market oversaturation and complexity and more to do with the fact that RTS games are naturally PC-centric. And for one reason or another, most developers and publishers still assume that consoles are where most of the money is made. Despite recent evidence to the contrary.

There is also the assumption that RTS games just don't sell. Why make a game that will probably sell a million units at best, with few opportunities to monetize further, when they can make a game that will sell 2 million with greater monetization?. A game like Diablo Immortal, as scummy as it is, probably generates more money for Blizzard than a "Warcraft IV" or "Starcraft III" ever will. Devs don't want some of the money, they want all of the money. Relic Entertainment also shat the bed with the abysmal Company of Heroes 3. Surprisingly, Microsoft is the only one keeping the genre relevant with Age of Empires IV and the upcoming remaster of Age of Mythology, they seem like flukes more than anything.
 

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