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Why did Real Time Strategy genre die out?

Mangoose

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You say meta is just "playing the system". That's basically what being objective and looking at what actually works means. In real life, you'd consider that to be a sign someone knows what they are doing or talking about. In a video game, it annoys you because it ruins the illusion the game was trying to create. Meta is immersion breaking, but that's not a concern for someone who is just trying to win which ultimately is what a competitive enviorment is supposed to be about.
Almost completely agree.

In technical terms, in fact you could say it's being tactical and strategic.

The complaint of "meta" - in gaming terms I've generally interpreted as in terms of gameplay balance in terms of the current situation (in other words, in terms of how patches might benefit one over another). Almost always, if one faction is better than the other, then the "meta" is that everybody intentionally or not joins that one faction.

And I think the reason "meta" is associated with video games, is that outside of video games, with well-done wargaming, there isn't exactly any short-term meta changing stuff. "Meta" in Chess would be more like specific Openings, ... But even then, this "meta" doesn't change arbitrarily, so the game doesn't change. And then also distinctive tactics for the Ending. That is, there is a prescribed way to do things in a specific way, of specific moves. As opposed to the midgame where there is thinking more strategic, more in terms of creating a tactic.

Of course, at a certain level even midgame tactics notation is studied so much, you'll be pulling specific moves from, fuck, theories from the late 19th to early 20th century. I mean, most of the Chess pseudo-textbooks was all about interpreting existing games, every single move, and of course I had played enough that notation was easy. I mean... everybody writes notation for a real competition, so let's just I'm fluent enough I can almost play without a board.

Been a while, though. Getting to the point of having to remember specific previous masters' MID-GAME specific moves.. Well, I really hate memorizing things and that's kinda when I stopped.

Edit: BTW I'm not joking if Chess is where I might have started out thinking about game design theory.

Edit: In fact when I was 12, in Elementary School, I gave a presentation on Chess to the class for some assignment. Can't remember if I got into any theory. (the chess club i would go to was an adult one in the city. The 12 year old I was talking about was the only other kid, and he was actually the best out of EVERYBODY. Immediate KO. I think one time he even played multiple adults - including coach - at the same time. He was definitely well known at that age, highly rated. Pretty sure he was/is on the spectrum. I was never even close to as good as him)
 

ind33d

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RTS never made sense as a genre. In real life, it's not like generals were chosen for their APM. One of the most strategic games in recent memory is Mechanicus, and that is practically a visual novel. Strategy games should be more about optimization and C&C than mashing buttons
 

RaggleFraggle

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The genre was innovating. Incrementally. Petroglyph tried to do new things in Universe at War and Grey Goo. RTS games have always tried new things. Literal Cloud maps, orbital and underground layers, customizable units, division of labor, etc. None of it caught on.
 

Damned Registrations

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RTS never made sense as a genre. In real life, it's not like generals were chosen for their APM. One of the most strategic games in recent memory is Mechanicus, and that is practically a visual novel. Strategy games should be more about optimization and C&C than mashing buttons
I've had a lot of fun with Mechabellum when itching for some strategy gameplay. All your interactions happen between combat rounds, so it's all about creating the best formation, calculating the best combined arms to counter the enemy units, choosing the most efficient upgrades and technologies, and predicting what your opponent will do for the round. It even has spell like abilities to use (EMP blasts, napalm strikes etc.) but again, you select where to deploy these between rounds based on where you think they'll be effective. Still gets hectic and you need to think very quickly in the later rounds when you get a lot of resources to spend and the situation becomes incredibly complex, but there's none of this 'command your soldiers to spread out to avoid the grenade' shit that is so common in modern RTS.

Feels comparable to chess with a strict timer. But with cool explosions. Seems like a no brainer that there should be more games like that. I guess 4X and grand strategy kind of ate up the whole strategy genre in general. Stuff like Battletech and Fantasy General seems pretty rare these days. Maybe we should do a thread asking why the TBS genre died out instead?
 

Nutmeg

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TBS genre died out instead?
It didn't, but it's mostly focused around historical gaming now. In the past 10 years we've seen some of the best in the genre with Field of Glory 2 (including Medieval), Order of Battle and Unity of Command 2, among many others I haven't played but which other people have recommended me (many of which are milking the same engine as Field of Glory, such as Pike & Shot).
 
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Desman

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All this talk about "meta" (a bullshit word btw) and nobody said that the balance in broodwar was because of the map makers :|
If you have followed competitive broodwar back in the day, the evolution of map design was really interesting.
The Korean pro leagues actually paid people to make interesting and balanced maps for all three races.

The truly old maps from release would be completly unbalanced nowadays. Lost Temple had like thousands different "balanced" and "updated" versions and it was still considered to be a joke map for pub games.

Also one cool thing about oldschool RTS is that they didn't have those stupid weekly/monthly balance patch like Mobas. People were not rewarded for being little bitches on forums.
 
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tritosine2k

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I saw a funny discussion once when >expert reaver drop micro was explained/handwaved away with hidden reaver dmg upgrade tree lol.
 

Demo.Graph

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I've read the thread, I've thought a bit, and here's the wall.

I believe that the core idea is real. Classical RTS are in decline.

One the one hand, it's sad. Because the core reason for their decline, as I see it, is corporatization of gamedev.
Risk-averse managers maximize quantifiable income, so they prefer making mobile bullshit or palette swapped sweatshop farted WC Refunded to inventing another WC3 killer. And yes, management doesn't understand (or ignores) what made original holy RTSs successful, because they're overfocused on competitive gameplay, because they're accustomed to working with consumer audiences and SP has no organized audience they could influence.
Console-PC quarrel is of secondary importance (though consoletards are cancer).

On the other, RTS death is great because, while they were great at a time, "classical" RTS are also cancer generators for several reasons.
First, they're often taxing on attention and reaction time. Cybersport-focused games have limited potential audience (just like real professional sport audience is much smaller than the audience of everyday exercising or gym visits). It's not bad in itself (it's okay to like stuff I don't like). But, like in professional sport, exertion at mastering those games leads to sunk cost fallacy - the more you try to be "good" at a game, the more important and unique it looks to you. In consequence, they create elitist groups, grouped around "meta" and current mechanics. And the more autistic they are the more vocal they become, and the more vocal they're the more incentives there're for dev management to lock gameplay in current meta in fear of "community" backlash.
This thread has some examples.

Secondly, the success of SC and WC and path dependency had created an "industry standard" that was, at least visibly, cybersport oriented. And because of that it stiffled designer creativity and led to blander gameplay. The gameplay became "balanced" - that is, symmetrical. Maps are symmetrical, resource availability is symmetrical, "racial" DoT has to be "balanced" at time-value scale, etc.
Compare it to, say:
- Dominions series, where nations are unequal and FFA+RNG create possibilities even for weaker nations to win.
- SC/WC campaigns that have varying goals and mechanics in different missions.
(e.g. for a time I thought that it would be cool to have dynamic maps in SC2: lava floods that turn your expansions into islands, random tornadoes that down your air units, maps spammed with bushes/smoke/fog that limit vision, etc. None of those materialized in competitive play).

To sum up, I value puzzle-like game approach more than time-value optimizations. I'd dare to say that most people do. A special kind of mind is required for player to find satisfaction in an endless repetition of the almost identical ingame situations and their optimization.
That is, speedrunners and aspergers might be pretty kewl, but I'm not one of them.

And why do I value a puzzle-like approach? Because I value decisions more than actions. My goal ingame is decisions per minute, not actions per minute.
Firstly, because it's interesting to make decisions. That's what I'm playing strategy games for. Secondly, because on APM scale I will always lose to a bot or some retard who masturbated on his build for several months.

Decisions have to be meaningful. And for that the game has to have a degree of uncertainty (FoW and randomness) on the one hand and a measure of control (exploration and player's stamina) on the other.
Switching from build 51 to build 76 might be a decision, but the builds themselves are not. That's why I find modern cybersport boring to watch. Players make maybe three meaningful decisions per game.

Plot-enriched games and sandboxes allow devs to slack on decisions significantly.
I don't really care about knight's DOT while I watch Arthas murderhoboing through the land. I don't care about unit economics (sorry) as I cram my fat long build into that pretty ravine I've just discovered.
But it goes counter to all the "classical" RTS mechanics.
That's why they should remain dead and should they even twitch a bit, we should crush them with the biggest concrete block we can manage.

Recently, Mechabellum was mentioned ITT. It does away with micromanagement by eliminating APM masturbation completely. Alas, it has some design decisions I don't like (no geometry on map, no mechanical variability because there's too much focus on competitive play). And, more importantly, it's not a RTS. It's an engine builder. There're many of those around (from boardgameland there're Glory to Rome, Chudyk's Innovation, Race for the Galaxy, Star Realms, Cthulhu Realms; I especially like the latter and GtR). And it's good that RTS crowd experiments with mechanics.

Maybe some day we'll get a RTS we all deserve.

P.S. And if anyone would tell me that if I want to have strategy I should fuck off to TBS land and leave RTS coomers alone, first I'll say that I've already done that, because your shit is unplayable, but then I'll also say, no, STFU nigger, you have no monopoly on watching toy soldiers raping each other on live feed. Especially since you don't look at them at all, you're too preoccupied with your micropenis.
 
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Space Satan

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No, no it is not.
Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition
Current players: 19,006
Age of Empires IV: Anniversary Edition
Current players: 12,125
People still play Dawn of War, CoH, Red Alert, C&C, supreme commander etc.
There is one big,huge, immense problem - all competitors are either cashgrabs or abandoned long ago.
C&C 3 and Red Alert 3 - had HUGE potential, but EA simply abandoned the game and online play. They released a couple of patches and moved on to other cashgrabs. Players started to abandon RA3 and C&C only after they realised that there will be no new patches and balancing. Incompetence and EA killed it.
Dawn of War never recovered from DoW3 disaster, where they played TibTwilight, by releasing moba trash nobody asked for.
Especially harmful for RTS were that EA used their own system for online play and it was literally impossible to play online without additional programs, like Command Post. It is liek a tragedyof Civilization IV, where game was killed because it used a fucking gamespy! Wwhile CivV used steam and gained wide popularity with their degenerate mecahnics like 1 unit per tile.
 

Lyric Suite

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In real life, it's not like generals were chosen for their APM.

Speed is crucial in all forms of military operations even on a grand scale (it's not like the enemy is going to just politely sit still and wait for their "turn" while you carefully lay out your strategy), but in the battlefield reaction times are key. A commander must be capable of assessing the situation moment to moment and be able to make fast decisions as the situation requires.
 

Faarbaute

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Ordering dudes around = boring
Producing dudes to order around = boring
Building structures in order to be able to produce dudes to order around = boring
Gathering resources, for the purposes of the above = boring
Conclusion: RTS = boring

So lets make things EXCITING!

You can basically trace the degeneration of the RTS genre to these fundamental assumptions.

Coupled with the reality that there isn't really an easy way to leverage your capital for greater returns with such a basic formula, without focusing on some otherwise unessential part like putting millions towards making your RTS a Super Cinematic Experience! or something equally superfluous. These are all self serving asumptions, in that sense.

These assumptions, together with said market forces, worked in tandem to destroy the RTS genre or otherwise turn it into something completely unrecognizable, such MOBAs and other gay shit.
 
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Ranselknulf

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Not sure about all these made up game genres kids use.

Is Grand Strategy just a way of saying zoomer RTS now?

da fugg.

Instead of making 100 different genders for RTS games just use descriptors.

They do it for FPS games by calling them boomer FPS.

Just call them boomer RTS.
 

Ranselknulf

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Ordering dudes around = boring
Producing dudes to order around = boring
Building structures in order to be able to produce dudes to order around = boring
Gathering resources, for the purposes of the above = boring
Conclusion: RTS = boring

So lets make things EXCITING!

You can basically trace the degeneration of the RTS genre to these fundamental assumptions.

Coupled with the reality that there isn't really an easy way to leverage your capital for greater returns with such a basic formula, without focusing on some otherwise unessential part like putting millions towards making your RTS a Super Cinematic Experience! or something equally superfluous. These are all self serving asumptions, in that sense.

These assumptions, together with said market forces, worked in tandem to destroy the RTS genre or otherwise turn it into something completely unrecognizable, such MOBAs and other gay shit.

Depends really on the length of time and win conditions. If its going to be a long drawn out campaign, then some sort of automation or general orders / directives should be a part of the equation.

You're suppose to be a general / leader of a huge force. The point isn't to order around every soldier to start digging a ditch.
 

JarlFrank

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No, no it is not.
Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition
Current players: 19,006
Age of Empires IV: Anniversary Edition
Current players: 12,125
People still play Dawn of War, CoH, Red Alert, C&C, supreme commander etc.
There is one big,huge, immense problem - all competitors are either cashgrabs or abandoned long ago.
C&C 3 and Red Alert 3 - had HUGE potential, but EA simply abandoned the game and online play. They released a couple of patches and moved on to other cashgrabs. Players started to abandon RA3 and C&C only after they realised that there will be no new patches and balancing. Incompetence and EA killed it.
Dawn of War never recovered from DoW3 disaster, where they played TibTwilight, by releasing moba trash nobody asked for.
Especially harmful for RTS were that EA used their own system for online play and it was literally impossible to play online without additional programs, like Command Post. It is liek a tragedyof Civilization IV, where game was killed because it used a fucking gamespy! Wwhile CivV used steam and gained wide popularity with their degenerate mecahnics like 1 unit per tile.
Yeah the real problem is that most popular RTS series dropped the ball at some point and turned to shit, then publishers/investors concluded "well RTS doesn't sell anymore" and that was that for the mainstream viability of the genre (a genre is only mainstream viable if big money is willing to invest in it).

AoE 2 is still one of the most popular RTS out there and now they keep pumping out new DLC for the Definitive Edition, and it keeps selling.
AoE 4 is a little less popular than AoE 2 as it tried to innovate but couldn't quite surpass its predecessor. Still, it sold reasonably well and got a DLC too. Age of Mythology, too, was a great spinoff and its new Retold edition is also a success.
The real dud in the AoE series is AoE 3 in my opinion. The home town system with the deckbuilding was really stupid, and makes it my least favorite part of the AoE series. A lot of classic fans didn't like it, and it didn't get the same community as AoE 2 and AoM.

Warcraft 3 was great, but after that Blizzard made WoW and that was pretty much it for the setting. There's only WoW now. Easier to milk money with an MMO than an RTS.

Command & Conquer got fucked over by EA, the last C&C game flopped because it was shit, simple as.

But with a bunch of classic remasters - AoE, C&C, Homeworld - the RTS genre got sort of revived, so publishers saw potential in it again. Which is why we got AoE4, which was reasonably successful.
Less successful were Homeworld 3 and Company of Heroes 3... because they sucked.

Ultimately, RTS are like every other genre. If your game fucking sucks it will fail, simple as.
 

Saldrone

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Warcraft 3 was great, but after that Blizzard made WoW and that was pretty much it for the setting. There's only WoW now. Easier to milk money with an MMO than an RTS.
That was kinda the same reason we got Star Wars: The Old Republic instead of KotOR 3.
:decline:
 

Caim

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Warcraft 3 was great, but after that Blizzard made WoW and that was pretty much it for the setting. There's only WoW now. Easier to milk money with an MMO than an RTS.
I've said it before, but if Blizzard tried to make another Warcraft RTS they'd run into problems no matter what they did:

- World of Warcraft REEEEforged: just take all of WoW's story lines and turn them into an RTS. Downside: Banal shit boring we've seen this all before.
- World of Warcraft Redone: alternate timeline that starts after Warcraft 3. Downside: an alternate timeline either nobody will give a shit about or upstage the WoW story.
- World of Warcraft Requiem: takes place after the "end" of WoW and is the inbetween for WoW 1 and WoW 2. Downside: fans will throw a shitfit if WoW's story ends in an RTS instead of the game proper.
- Warcraft 0: takes place prior to the destruction of the Well of Eternity, and has you play the various factions of that era. Downside: Aside from a very small number of characters (the Stormrage brothers, Tyrande, Azshara, Lady Vashj, Lei Shen) nobody's really going to give a shit about the various characters and factions of that era, plus we already know how it's going to end.

But most of all: would you trust current day Blizzard to make a good Warcraft?
 

JarlFrank

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Of all the classic RTS remasters we got in recent years, the Warcraft 3 remaster is the only one that had an overwhelmingly negative reception. I think that says all you need to know about current Blizzard's potential.

And yeah, WoW fucked up the lore to the point you can't really make a normal game in that setting anymore. It's all WoW now. There can be nothing else than WoW.
 

RaggleFraggle

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Same for starcraft. The “plot” is complete garbage and there’s no way to fix that aside from a reboot that retroactively aborts Raynor, Mengsk, Kerry, Duran and Amon. Then you can tell a story about Stukov and DuGalle heroically leading the Confederacy’s defensive efforts against the filthy xenos invaders.
 

Space Satan

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People tend to forget that latest RTS games had an awesome, superb graphics, that need no update to this day. Red Alert 3 water effcts are still better than 90% of FPS and RPGs that were released recently, C&C: Tiberium Wars fire effects are far better than Starcraft 2 ever had. It is a metter of will to revive a series.
 

Riddler

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Bubbles In Memoria
All this talk about "meta" (a bullshit word btw) and nobody said that the balance in broodwar was because of the map makers :|
If you have followed competitive broodwar back in the day, the evolution of map design was really interesting.
The Korean pro leagues actually paid people to make interesting and balanced maps for all three races.

The truly old maps from release would be completly unbalanced nowadays. Lost Temple had like thousands different "balanced" and "updated" versions and it was still considered to be a joke map for pub games.

Also one cool thing about oldschool RTS is that they didn't have those stupid weekly/monthly balance patch like Mobas. People were not rewarded for being little bitches on forums.
In Wc3, Lost temple was a fine enough map that produced some of the most entertaining games ever played, even with the issues it had.

One funny thing about it that made it pretty uncompetitive though, which to my knowledge still hasn't been fixed is that it isn't guaranteed that you end up opposite one another which means that in 2/3 games someone spawns right next to their opponent's natural expansion...
 

Space Satan

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Warcraft 3 was great, but after that Blizzard made WoW and that was pretty much it for the setting. There's only WoW now. Easier to milk money with an MMO than an RTS.
There were a single statement from Blizzard that killed enthusasm for decades for developers. About how their release of a single pet in WoW earned them more money than Starcraft 2 release. It was so damning and so depressing alot of devs simply said "Fuck it..." and abandoned RTS developement\closed their projects. Because why bother with some innovative and creative ideas when some banal reskin shit worth more than ALL of your hard work and overworks? People said that this very statement killed any enthusiasm and desire to work overnight.
Like a fair factory worker hearing that some onlyfans whore earn more than he could in a decade.
 

JarlFrank

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Honestly, that's not the fault of RTS but of WoW being such a huge success and cultural monolith at the time. You couldn't even compete with that by making another MMO, since it wasn't MMOs that had such popularity, only WoW.
 

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