Why do people hate Oblivion so much?

[TheHeroOfTime]

There's great potential in the TES formula. Thing is, Bethesda never exploited it properly. You only need to see the insane amount of mods and community content that these game have. Some of them are even games by themselves. Quests, animations, overhauled/redesigned systmes, entire frameworks that add new features... Meanwhile, Bethesda is trying to appeal the popamole crew more than ever with simplistics games like Fallout 4 that are not even rpg anymore.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Bethesda makes the game and the mods are there to clean up the mess. I've never played a mod for bethesda games so my comment could be utter bullox.

 

[Funposter]

- The mage quest where someone makes an attempt to kill you by having a small item magically weighted.

The sad part is that it's not even magically weighted with a 150 pt Burden effect. It just weighs 150 lbs. Returning it isn't necessary, either, which completely ruins the whole point of the item since the player can just drop it.

 

[Cael]

Area: Daedric Ruins

Scenario 1:
Level 1: You run into Scamps.
Level 20: You run into Daedera Lords.

Scenario 2:
Level 1: You run into Scamps.
Level 20: You run into Scamps that have more hit points than the whole of Tamriel.

One of those is Oblivion.

 

[Funposter]

This is autistic pedantry but Scamps don't scale to the player's level, only their spawns. What actually levels up alongside the player are:

NPCs such as Bandits, Conjurers, Marauders etc. (this includes Dremora Markynaz and Valkynaz)
Ogres and Minotaur Lords
Goblin Shaman and Goblin Warlords
Nether Liches, Gloom Wraiths and Liches
Xivilai

That's the comprehensive list of creatures whose HP and damage scales based on player level. Minotaur Lords for instance have a HP stat of 22*Lvl, so at Level 30 they would have 660 HP. Their damage follows the formula of 24+(lvl/2) pts melee, so at Level 30 they would be doing 39 points of melee damage if unarmed, and I believe that armed variants have the base damage of their Warhammer added to the attack, which also applies to other armed creatures like Xivilai, Goblin Warlords and Gloom Wraiths. Scaling NPC damage and HP is based off their attributes and skills, exactly like the player, so they're all just set to auto-adjust in the CS as they level up, so how tough they are depends on what level they're set to. Regular bandits are always 1-3 levels lower than the player, while boss bandits are one level higher. The level offsets aren't really consistent though, even among NPCs of the same type. Vampire Patriarchs with the class of Assassin, for instance, will always be 2 levels higher than the player, while those with the Sorcerer or Crusader class will be the same level as the player.

The big problem with the scaling, apart from creature types disappearing, is that it isn't a smooth difficulty curve. Regular Skeletons have 20 HP, and are the only type of Skeleton you encounter until Level 8, when Skeleton Guardians with 170 HP start spawning. That's a huge jump in the amount of damage the player needs to deal out, and only optimized characters who are seeking out the best loot and enchanting it properly can really keep up. Then, four levels later, Skeleton Heroes start spawning and they have 280 HP. To put it in perspective, a basic Iron Longsword that you might use on those regular Skeletons has a base damage of 10. With 40 STR and 30 Blade, you'll be doing about 3 damage which means it will die in 7 hits when you first start meeting them. Now let's imagine the sort of character who meets that Skeleton Guardian for the first time. Suppose they have something like 61 STR (averaging a x3 bonus to STR for their seven level-ups) and 58 Blade (averaging 4 level ups to Blade per character level), and have just got their hands on a shiny new, Dwarven Longsword with a base damage of 16. They'll be doing 9 damage, which means the Skeleton dies in 19 hits. Their reward for levelling up is encountering a new enemy type that takes three times as long to kill as enemies did at Level 1.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Area: Daedric Ruins

Scenario 1:
Level 1: You run into Scamps.
Level 20: You run into Daedera Lords.

Scenario 2:
Level 1: You run into Scamps.
Level 20: You run into Scamps that have more hit points than the whole of Tamriel.

One of those is Oblivion.

Oblivion level scaling does affect the type of monsters that spawn though.
Level 1: You run into a Churl.
Level 21: You run into a Markynaz.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Dremora

Oblivion level scaling is silly because you start seeing shit like bandits wearing dwarven armor.

 

[Cael]

Oblivion level scaling is silly because you start seeing shit like bandits wearing dwarven armor.

That was what I was alluding to.

It is one thing to level scale using different types of creatures with different attacks/special abilities, etc. All RPG do that to a degree.

It is entirely something else to present the same mob over and over again but moar betterer!!! as levels go up.

 

[Lambach]

It is one thing to level scale using different types of creatures with different attacks/special abilities, etc. All RPG do that to a degree.

That type of scaling is pretty gay too, though, if you're doing an open-world game. Not all RPGs do it either, I don't remember Piranha Bytes games having any scaling at all.

 

[Cael]

It is one thing to level scale using different types of creatures with different attacks/special abilities, etc. All RPG do that to a degree.

That type of scaling is pretty gay too, though, if you're doing an open-world game. Not all RPGs do it either, I don't remember Piranha Bytes games having any scaling at all.

Yes, because you should always face a Great Wyrm Red Dragon in the level 1 tutorial.

 

[Lambach]

Yes, because you should always face a Great Wyrm Red Dragon in the level 1 tutorial.

No, but in an open-world game, you should make it clear either through quest description or through some telltale signs in the environment what is roughly the level of danger the player should expect. If you get a quest at level one that states "Go to cave X and kill a Great Wyrm Red Dragon there", you should be smart enough to know that you should, in fact, not go into that cave until much, much later in the game. Replacing the Great Wyrm Red Dragon in the cave with some tiny lizard just so a level one character can complete the quest as soon as he gets it is the type of scaling you consider acceptable and is just bad game design, end of discussion.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

Area: Daedric Ruins

Scenario 1:
Level 1: You run into Scamps.
Level 20: You run into Daedera Lords.

Scenario 2:
Level 1: You run into Scamps.
Level 20: You run into Scamps that have more hit points than the whole of Tamriel.

One of those is Oblivion.

Oblivion level scaling does affect the type of monsters that spawn though.
Level 1: You run into a Churl.
Level 21: You run into a Markynaz.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Dremora

Oblivion level scaling is silly because you start seeing shit like bandits wearing dwarven armor.

Morrowind, with the first expansion, had those stupid assassins that had the best possible light armor come after you at the very beginning of the game. Not a level scaling issue, just one of the worst parts of it. Maybe that's really just that expansion being shit.

 

[Funposter]

Morrowind, with the first expansion, had those stupid assassins that had the best possible light armor come after you at the very beginning of the game. Not a level scaling issue, just one of the worst parts of it. Maybe that's really just that expansion being shit.

Poor implementation, and something Bethesda wouldn't sort out until Skyrim. However they actually made it so that they don't attack until Level 6 on the Xbox GOTY version.

 

[Cael]

Yes, because you should always face a Great Wyrm Red Dragon in the level 1 tutorial.

No, but in an open-world game, you should make it clear either through quest description or through some telltale signs in the environment what is roughly the level of danger the player should expect. If you get a quest at level one that states "Go to cave X and kill a Great Wyrm Red Dragon there", you should be smart enough to know that you should, in fact, not go into that cave until much, much later in the game. Replacing the Great Wyrm Red Dragon in the cave with some tiny lizard just so a level one character can complete the quest as soon as he gets it is the type of scaling you consider acceptable and is just bad game design, end of discussion.

Sure, mate. Sure. In the tutorial. That is like putting a Daedra Lord right next to the interviewer in Morrowind and claiming the player should have known not to go there.

There is always an element of level scaling in RPGs, even if it is different units. That is why the Monster Manual in DnD is multiple volumes of different creatures. There are some things that you are not supposed to meet at level 1.

 

[Lemming42]

Playing Arena again because of this thread and it's a ton of fun even though it fucking sucks. Tharn is a hilarious villain, and you can use the spellmaker very early on to make a spell that reflects both physical and magical damage, allowing you to literally just walk through the rest of the game without danger.

 

[Cael]

Playing Arena again because of this thread and it's a ton of fun even though it fucking sucks. Tharn is a hilarious villain, and you can use the spellmaker very early on to make a spell that reflects both physical and magical damage, allowing you to literally just walk through the rest of the game without danger.

I remember getting that lifesteal katana and stealing belts of shielding so I took no damage and even if I did, I could steal it all back after I put up the next one. Fun times.

 

[Lambach]

Sure, mate. Sure. In the tutorial. That is like putting a Daedra Lord right next to the interviewer in Morrowind and claiming the player should have known not to go there.

How are you this retarded?

No, that's like specifically not putting a Daedra Lord in a place where his presence doesn't make sense. Also, it's like specifically not putting Scamps as enemies in end-game quests because a player started those quests at level 3 or something. Even if you're level 40, you should not be facing level 40 Epic Skirmisher Berserker Archmage Goblins of Demonic Ass-Rape in the sewers on the Imperial City, because it makes absolutely no fucking sense whatsoever for them to be there. Likewise, even if you're only level 5 when Dagon starts stomping through the Imperial City, it makes no sense at all for the game to pit you against the weakest Daedra in Dagon's army (just because you're low level) instead of his own personal, elite guard composed of the most powerful bad-asses that roam Oblivion.

This "level-scaling" thing is how you end up with games in which it's entirely possible for characters who are straight out of the fucking womb to defeat "the best fighter Cyrodil's Arena has ever seen" or kill a literal world-ending Dragon who is a son of god.

There is always an element of level scaling in RPGs, even if it is different units. That is why the Monster Manual in DnD is multiple volumes of different creatures. There are some things that you are not supposed to meet at level 1.

I specifically mentioned a pretty well-known RPG developer that doesn't do level-scaling at all and I could name other examples as well, but you chose to be retarded on purpose and ignored it.

 

[Cael]

Sure, mate. Sure. In the tutorial. That is like putting a Daedra Lord right next to the interviewer in Morrowind and claiming the player should have known not to go there.

How are you this retarded?

No, that's like specifically not putting a Daedra Lord in a place where his presence doesn't make sense. Also, it's like specifically not putting Scamps as enemies in end-game quests because a player started those quests at level 3 or something. Even if you're level 40, you should not be facing level 40 Epic Skirmisher Berserker Archmage Goblins of Demonic Ass-Rape in the sewers on the Imperial City, because it makes absolutely no fucking sense whatsoever for them to be there. Likewise, even if you're only level 5 when Dagon starts stomping through the Imperial City, it makes no sense at all for the game to pit you against the weakest Daedra in Dagon's army (just because you're low level) instead of his own personal, elite guard composed of the most powerful bad-asses that roam Oblivion.

There is always an element of level scaling in RPGs, even if it is different units. That is why the Monster Manual in DnD is multiple volumes of different creatures. There are some things that you are not supposed to meet at level 1.

I specifically mentioned a pretty well-known RPG developer that doesn't do level-scaling at all and I could name other examples as well, but you chose to be retarded on purpose and ignored it.

You are so deliberately restricting the definition of level scale in order to meet your own retarded definition of level scaling that it is funny.

All RPGs level scale because the point of all RPGs is to make the player feel a sense of accomplishment as their characters get stronger. Any RPG that specifically asks you to follow a path is engaged in level scaling because that is exactly what they are doing: Go down this path to meet enemies that you will be able to best as you get stronger. That you think you have agency just because the game doesn't have invisible walls shows the kind of low-IQ ning-nong that you are.

The problem is not level scaling so much as it is using repetitive mobs that get improbably stronger, which is what many games do (especially the ones with pallette swaps).

 

[madbringer]

It seems like part of the Codex culture to hate on Oblivion.

Yeah, coz it fucking sucks. Even 10 years of mods can't fix this pile of shit.

 

[Lambach]

All RPGs level scale because the point of all RPGs is to make the player feel a sense of accomplishment as their characters get stronger.

I specifically mentioned a pretty well-known RPG developer that doesn't do level-scaling at all and I could name other examples as well, but you chose to be retarded on purpose and ignored it.

I forgot I was talking to a chatbot, your developers probably haven't scripted a response to this.

 

[Valdetiosi]

That is like putting a Daedra Lord right next to the interviewer in Morrowind and claiming the player should have known not to go there.

Consistent world design is not your strongest suite? Also why do you bring tutorial as example?
Daedra Lord has no place in Census Office, unless it's established the interviewer is master conjurer or Daedra worshipper.

 

[Cael]

All RPGs level scale because the point of all RPGs is to make the player feel a sense of accomplishment as their characters get stronger.

I specifically mentioned a pretty well-known RPG developer that doesn't do level-scaling at all and I could name other examples as well, but you chose to be retarded on purpose and ignored it.

I forgot I was talking to a chatbot, your developers probably haven't scripted a response to this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever. What a typical response of someone who has lost the argument and resort of ad hominems to cover his retreat.

 

[Cael]

That is like putting a Daedra Lord right next to the interviewer in Morrowind and claiming the player should have known not to go there.

Consistent world design is not your strongest suite? Also why do you bring tutorial as example?
Daedra Lord has no place in Census Office, unless it's established the interviewer is master conjurer or Daedra worshipper.

Consistent world or not, no RPG (computer or otherwise) starts with you being able to run into something that is way out of your league. That is the whole point. The second you start to control what players should run into at a particular point in the game, you have engaged in level scaling. Some games makes is blatant as hell (e.g., the aforementioned palette swapped creatures). Others try to disguise it with a whole bunch of different creatures with different abilities. DnD 3.x, for example, makes it very plain that this is a desirable thing: You should not overwhelm your players unless it is a special boss or you are out to punish them. That is what the entire CR system was supposed to do (that it fails to do so is not a reflection on the intent of the system).

Level scaling exists in all games, or tutorials would be murderfests.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

hey bruh have you ever heard about high elves dark souls?

 

[Valdetiosi]

Consistent world or not, no RPG (computer or otherwise) starts with you being able to run into something that is way out of your league.

What's Gothic?

The second you start to control what players should run into at a particular point in the game, you have engaged in level scaling.

Again, what's Gothic?

Level scaling exists in all games, or tutorials would be murderfests.

What's Final Fantasy?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I don't consider open world design that's effectively linear due to massive level differences to be particularly good design either. It feels very artificial for there to be an area of level 1 goblins to be right next to an area of level 9 million demons.