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Why do people hate Oblivion so much?

Jack Of Owls

Arcane
Joined
May 23, 2014
Messages
4,408
Location
Massachusettes
Morrowind is the closest video games have come to achieving a (fantasy) setting that feels realistic ala Tolkien. The mushroom towers are surface level. This is why NPC scheduling doesn't matter, either. NPCs going to sleep or eating at set times is realistic/believable on a micro level, but inconsequential at a macro level.

I was recently thinking about installing the android emulated version of Morrowind on my old snapdragon 636-based phone just for the fuck of it but I'm sure it would run like shit through a crazy straw (though 7 Mages runs acceptably) so decided not to.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,463
I bought the mega bethesda sale for fallout & elder scrolls on steam but they just sit there. Skyrim never hit Gog nor FO4; why? I guess i need a dedicated steam machine. I don't want that jank on my current pc. No modern doom for me. Back to dos.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,463
I always wondered why people adore the whole TES thing, not only Oblivion...

Yes, Bethesda did some (not so) new and (maybe) cool things, like huge open world or skills increasing while using, but for me these games look and feel empty, tedious and boring. For example, M&M6 (what I still cope with and critiсize) is much better IMO.

Oblivion is the worst TES I played (and I played 1-4 and Battlespire). Why worst? Despite the shiny graphics it feels even more empty and tedious than previous parts. Don't know why and never wanted to see into it.

Arena - janky mess but it's got a lot of impressive tech and cool ideas for 1994. It's not a bad action-adventure game when you get into it.
Daggerfall - absolutely fucking wicked if you're interested in what it's trying to achieve. Never been anything else like it. Main plot is also genuinely pretty fascinating.
Redguard - this is actually fucking brilliant, but failed on the basis that the devs couldn't figure out how to do Tomb Raider controls properly, even though they were directly ripping Tomb Raider off.
Morrowind - has a lot of problems gameplay-wise, but it's an incredible glimpse into a totally alien world, only slightly hampered by the fact that NPCs never frigging move
Oblivion - absolute mess. Doesn't appear to even be set in the TES setting.
Skyrim - decent game, average action gameplay and it feels like it's back in the Elder Scrolls setting. Awful writing for most quests but they're background noise, just walk around on your own.

Other than Daggerfall, which is fascinating on its own merits, you have to really like the setting to enjoy the games.

Arena is still fun. Terminator Rampage... less so.

Daggerfall is pretty awesome. Skynet & Future shock are buggy but I like them FS more than skynet.

Morrowind NICE.

Oblivion... i just hate the scaling of mobs like DS2.

Skyrim. NEVER PLAYED.

never touched Redguard nor Battlespire.

never played mobile or TES online.
 

Fluent

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 8, 2021
Messages
830
Why never played Skyrim KeighnMcDeath ? I mean some of the mobs scale but it's hugely, hugely improved over Oblivion's base system. U can even run into enemies too strong and have to come back later better equipped and with more levels. It's not Morrowind level but it's not bad either.
 

Funposter

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
1,818
Location
Australia
Why never played Skyrim KeighnMcDeath ? I mean some of the mobs scale but it's hugely, hugely improved over Oblivion's base system. U can even run into enemies too strong and have to come back later better equipped and with more levels. It's not Morrowind level but it's not bad either.
You can but there's functionally about six locations that you can't safely navigate after about ten hours of gameplay, those being the Dragon Priest dungeons. Dwemer ruins and Falmer caves are dangerous for maybe the first five hours, and very few of them are present in the area around where you start the game, so you're unlikely to encounter them while they're still dangerous, with Shimmermist Cave being the notable exception. The greatest benefit of Skyrim's more restrained level-scaling is that bandits aren't spawning with top-tier gear and overworld encounters aren't a frustrating Mountain Lion rapefest like in Oblivion. It's maybe 10-20% more enjoyable, if I had to quantify it.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,463
Skyrim's not on GOG? Pick up the slack, Todd!
That's pretty much the reason I never tried it along with not actually finishing Daggerfall onwards. I'd just get lost hoarding, reading, grinding and forget about the questing.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,463
I probably failed to notice. Actually.... now that you mention it maybe Arena did as well (or I just rushed dungeons it seemed like it).
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
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50,754
Codex Year of the Donut

Butter

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
8,649
Oblivion... i just hate the scaling of mobs like DS2.
Daggerfall has aggressive level scaling, yet it's not something I ever see it criticized for. I wonder if people just don't notice it if it's not pointed out to them or something
How aggressive can it really be if no one notices it?
the entire game is level-scaled
Do people object to all level scaling on principle, or do they object to it only when it's noticeable and immersion-shattering, like in Oblivon?
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,463
If certain mobs have a cap on their scaling then I don't have a problem. If a stupid rat or skeleton becomes as hard as a daedric lord decked out then I have serious issues with the scaling. Throwing harder mobs types is ok to a point as well but if a starter area turned into vampy, daedra, golem palace when it was pathetic trash mobs at level 1; again it looks retarded. Why would daedra lords keep camping out in a dump? Are they hobos now?
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2021
Messages
698
but if a starter area turned into vampy, daedra, golem palace when it was pathetic trash mobs at level 1; again it looks retarded
This is exactly what daggerfall does. The monsters that spawn depend on your level.
Morrowind also does this, although I believe different areas have different level caps, and of course there are hand placed monsters as well. But yeah, mudcrabs at level 1, daedra at level 50 in the same zone is totally a thing in morrowind.


Morrowind and daggerfall had much less popularity overall, so there's a lot less collected observation. Oblivion was marketed to everyone, so it had some elements going for mass popularity, and it's fair to say it was made a bit more "casual" as well as the interface obviously being designed for console use. On top of that, there was also the "Everyone likes it, not just me, so it must suck".

There's a lot more collected commentary and criticism of Citizen Kane than there is of Hot Shots Part Deux. This isn't because hot shots part deux was a flawless movie. I'm not saying oblivion is the citizen kane of TES, that'd be insane, just that it had a much wider audience and thus a wider pool of criticism than morrowind or daggerfall.

I guess my real point is most of the people complaining about Oblivion and Skyrim while praising Daggerfall probably know of a lot more of the flaws of Oblivion and Skyrim, even if Daggerfall had them as well.
 

Namutree

Augur
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
250
A part of the reason that Daggerfall's level scaling doesn't come up much is the way character creation works.

With the advantage/disadvantage system, I always leveled up slowly anyways, but all of my level ups were super strong. In practice, I really didn't FEEL like the game was level scaling.

It should also be noted that the level scaling in Daggerfall was not quite as aggressive as Oblivion. Oblivion not only scaled the enemies you're up against, but their level.
 

Namutree

Augur
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
250
God I miss the advantage/disadvantage system. Not perfect execution, but a fantastic idea.
 

Funposter

Arcane
Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
1,818
Location
Australia
People don't complain about levelled enemies in Morrowind because of a few reasons.

1. It doesn't affect NPCs or uniquely placed enemies in any way
2. Increasing in level simply increases the variety of enemies which will spawn, as opposed to Oblivion where you're always stuck with a set of about 3-4.

As an example, take any Daedric ruin in the game. Daedric Ruins almost always have high level NPCs who will be dangerous to a character that has been playing for a few hours, let alone one who just stepped off the boat at Seyda Neen. However, that person who just stepped off the boat will only encounter Scamps as part of the generic Daedra list, as well as a chance for a Flame Atronach, Clannfear and Dremora if the in_dae_atronach, in_dae_clanfear and in_dae_dremora levelled enemies have been placed down, since all of these can spawn at Level 1. As stated, this Level 1 character will still have a problem with hand-placed enemies such as NPCs as well as some hand-placed creatures. Ibar-Dad is a great example of this, where apart from the Level 15 and 17 Sorcerers occupying the cave, there will always be a Daedroth guarding a key, two Dremora Lords guarding the vault door and a Golden Saint inside said vault, guarding a Daedric Battle-Axe, Shield, Staff, Helm and Eleidon's Ward.

Here's some MS Paint to explain the situation:

qRgRiHL.png


In red are all of the enemies that will spawn in a Daedric ruin at Level 1. The green box goes up to 11, and the blue box goes up to 16. You'll notice that the blue box is actually surrounding every enemy, though. Low level enemies are not wiped from the levelled lists as the player progress, unlike Oblivion. You can still find Scamps at Level 20 and I'm pretty sure you have just as high a chance of a Scamp spawning as you do a Golden Saint. This is unlike Oblivion, where a Level 16 character would only pull from the 12-16 group of enemies and Scamps, Flame Atronachs etc. would disappear from the world. It's also worth noting that, contrary to statements in this thread, Mudcrabs and Daedra are not related when it comes to levelled lists. Mudcrabs only spawn using the ex_shore lists, which are comprised purely of Mudcrabs, Cliff Racers and Netch. There's also an ex_shore lists which is just mudcrabs. Any instances of Daedra and Mudcrabs spawning near one another is a case of a Daedric ruin near a coastline, or levelled enemies located near a coastline in Molag Amur or the Grazelands.

This is exactly what daggerfall does. The monsters that spawn depend on your level.
They do, but a Level 1 character can still encounter a Vampire Ancient or a Lich in the correct dungeon, and can always technically receive a quest to go kill one, which obviously will make it spawn. Again, the difference between the rest of the series and Oblivion is that in Oblivion, no challenge can possibly exist at level 1 with a few notable exceptions (Umbra, Uderfrykte Matron) since it's impossible for anything too scary to spawn. Daggerfall still spawns scary things. Morrowind doesn't spawn scary things, but has plenty hand-placed in the world.
 

Deuce Traveler

2012 Newfag
Patron
Joined
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Location
Stuttgart, Germany
Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Oblivion was pretty bland, but I will give it credit for some really imaginative side quests.

- The mage quest where someone makes an attempt to kill you by having a small item magically weighted.
- The quest where you enter into an artists painting.
- The assassin's quest where you trick and murder everyone in a building.
- The way you can murder a guy by dropping a trophy on him.

Skyrim was a much better game, but the quests never did anything for me.
 

purupuru

Learned
Joined
Nov 2, 2019
Messages
415
When you level up in Morrowind, the leveled spawns make you feel like there are increasingly more interesting things happening in the world. There are still basic rats and mudcrabs, but also fancier new creatures would appear more often.
When you level up in Oblivion, most low tier creatures suffer a mysterious genocide and those that remain receive obscenely high HP with no lore reason(unlike Morrowind which had the blight, and had much less stat bloat).
 

TheHeroOfTime

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
2,966
Location
S-pain
There's great potential in the TES formula. Thing is, Bethesda never exploited it properly. You only need to see the insane amount of mods and community content that these game have. Some of them are even games by themselves. Quests, animations, overhauled/redesigned systmes, entire frameworks that add new features... Meanwhile, Bethesda is trying to appeal the popamole crew more than ever with simplistics games like Fallout 4 that are not even rpg anymore.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,463
Bethesda makes the game and the mods are there to clean up the mess. I've never played a mod for bethesda games so my comment could be utter bullox.
 

Funposter

Arcane
Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
1,818
Location
Australia
- The mage quest where someone makes an attempt to kill you by having a small item magically weighted.
The sad part is that it's not even magically weighted with a 150 pt Burden effect. It just weighs 150 lbs. Returning it isn't necessary, either, which completely ruins the whole point of the item since the player can just drop it.
 

Cael

Arcane
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
22,071
Area: Daedric Ruins

Scenario 1:
Level 1: You run into Scamps.
Level 20: You run into Daedera Lords.

Scenario 2:
Level 1: You run into Scamps.
Level 20: You run into Scamps that have more hit points than the whole of Tamriel.

One of those is Oblivion.
 

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