Why end 80s/earlier 90s JRPG's so different than modern ones?

[Karellen]

except for the parts that treat you as Charname, Gorion's Ward, the Bhaalspawn. In the grand scheme of things, the impact of character class in pretty small, because it's a party-based RPG about doing D&D things (...) it would still be basically the same game, and whether it is boring or not is a function of whether the things you do in Baldur's Gate are boring or not.

But why my character needs to be the center of the world? OR the savior of the world? Why he can't be just another character of that world? You are not the unique Bhaalspawn on BG2. VtMB is amazing because even if you are supernatural. You still only a small part of a big world. You can't prevent Gehema, you can't become on top of Tremere pyramid and the endings is quite interesting. Even when you are a circle 9 wizard capable of casting devastating spells like stop time and wish, you are still a piece of the world. Other bhaalspawn are equally powerful.

I am now amused that whereas earlier you said that player choice allows for more character variety, you're now saying that it's better when the world doesn't react too much to your character, because... it's more realistic? The thing is, you are still wrong, because there are actually a lot of JRPGs that deal with small-scale conflicts. Many JRPGs have fairly sober, political themes, with little to no world-saving - mostly tactical RPGs, but also series like Suikoden and Legend of Heroes, which are quite concerned with elaborate world-building. But on an even smaller scale, there are a lot of JRPGs that are essentially about small, individual struggles. Did you know that there's an entire twenty-game RPG franchise of slice-of-life stories about alchemists, with time pressure, multiple endings and fairly elaborate sim elements of the sort that CRPGs haven't seen in decades? CRPGs don't really do that kind of thing, because a personal struggle implies that your character drives the narrative, and it's tricky to write content for that when the main character is as likely to be a kitten-torturing psycho as a righteous hero. A JRPG can simply center its story and content around a particular character who isn't the destined saviour of the world and define what their major concerns and goals are, and go from there.

I would suggest that VtM: Bloodlines and Geneforge both support my argument that better defined main character makes for better content and more interesting roleplaying options than allowing the player to be whatever he wants to be. It's better to make a game about being a vampire than make a generic CRPG and then allow you to become a vampire in it; there is inevitably going to be better vampire content in the former than in the latter. Interestingly, one of the complaints about Bloodlines is that its main quest is rather railroady - but that's largely because the story has to account for the main character being anything, so the only way to make a functionable main quest is to have a set-up which makes the player character constantly a victim of circumstances, forced to react rather than act. There are tradeoffs at work here, and JRPGs simply have different ones than CRPGs do.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Lots of reasons:

When the artform was new, inspirations were varied, by necessity. Now that it's older, there are people creating things mostly inspired by older media. Often tinted by their nostaligia. So you get a lot of similar stuff because more people saw DBZ and Sailor Moon than Record of Lodoss War. Note that this doesn't really cause bad quality, just less variety. Iteration on ideas can produce great work.

Advanced marketing has lead to management demanding everyone chase whatever was most popular yesteryear. Again, leads to a lot of similar stuff.

More emphasis on marketing has lead to shittier games/anime gaining popularity just by sheer force of advertising. Combined with point one, you start to get people aping popular shit work more often than cult classics. Internet virality and piracy combat this, but it's unclear which is winning.

Cheaper distribution means it's easier to find shovelware than ever. Brick and mortar stores didn't stock infinite copies of everything. They stocked mostly the good shit (as best they could discern.) Stuff like ET went into the landfill where it belonged. These days it goes 80% off and hits the steam front page because the publisher is too big.

We're jaded old fucks now and a lot of the shit that was novel is now boring. I can't even be bothered to give an oldschool jrpg style game a chance these days anyways; too many cool new genres and ideas floating around. If Chrono Trigger or SaGa Frontier came out today it'd probably fly right under my radar. Fuck, I only sunk 6 hours into Romancing SaGa 2 and didn't even finish it once, and that was pretty fucking awesome. It would have been an obssession if I'd played it back when it first released.

In spite of all that though, felilipepepepe is right- there's awesome new shit out there if you look for it. It rarely gets as popular as it deserves but that's why we have our lord and savior, SsethTzeentach2.

 

[Cryomancer]

By the end of TOB you are one of the most powerful people in the setting overshadowing even Elminster

Yep; you can become literally a deity. But that is decades after killing rats on Candlekee and literally any other bhaalsapawn could do the same. Also, before the ToB, the level cap was 17, so even fully mastering all nine circles of magic is out of your grasp. And everyone considered Shadows of Amn better than Throne of Baal.

Even pathfinder kingmaker which reaches epic levels of power, with spawn of rovagug, war between kingdoms, demigods like Lantern King, powerful ancient curses, the conflict is limited inside the Stolen Lands and parts of feyworld.

Many JRPGs have fairly sober, political themes, with little to no world-saving - mostly tactical RPGs, but also series like Suikoden and Legend of Heroes, which are quite concerned with elaborate world-building. But on an even smaller scale, there are a lot of JRPGs that are essentially about small, individual struggles. Did you know that there's an entire twenty-game RPG franchise of slice-of-life stories about alchemists, with time pressure, multiple endings and fairly elaborate sim elements of the sort that CRPGs haven't seen in decades? CRPGs don't really do that kind of thing, because a personal struggle implies that your character drives the narrative(...)

It's better to make a game about being a vampire than make a generic CRPG and then allow you to become a vampire in it; there is inevitably going to be better vampire content in the former than in the latter

Suikoden, i have heard good things from a youtuber but never played. Seems way more interesting. As for VtMB, VtMB allow you to chose your clan and being a female Nosferatu is completely different than being a male Tremere. VtMR is a better example of a game with a fix protagonist, Both games are great, but IMO VtMB is far better.

earlier you said that player choice allows for more character variety, you're now saying that it's better when the world doesn't react too much to your character,

You din't understood. Be able to chose between being a Doctor or a Lawyer in our world and both decisions impacting the life of dozens of close people to the person that took the decision and more distant they are for the person that took the decision, less impactful that decision is, is one thing. That decision making the entire world differently is another thing. Same in a fictional world. Game of Thrones was far better on the first seasons, when stuff are more local.

Baldur's Gate 1/2 is amazing in that regard. Party members react to your alignment and decisions and can leave or even become hostile. If was more linear, IE "you will play with class X and can't decide to be evil", the game would't be the same.

---------------

And Dammed Registrations - Record of Lodoss War is amazing

 

[aweigh]

i don't consider party members leaving because you didn't game the system well-enough to be a positive feature. It's inherently anti-gameplay, and smacks of storyfaggotry.

 

[Karellen]

earlier you said that player choice allows for more character variety, you're now saying that it's better when the world doesn't react too much to your character,

You din't understood. Be able to chose between being a Doctor or a Lawyer in our world and both decisions impacting the life of dozens of close people to the person that took the decision and more distant they are for the person that took the decision, less impactful that decision is, is one thing. That decision making the entire world differently is another thing. Same in a fictional world. Game of Thrones was far better on the first seasons, when stuff are more local.

Baldur's Gate 1/2 is amazing in that regard. Party members react to your alignment and decisions and can leave or even become hostile. If was more linear, IE "you will play with class X and can't decide to be evil", the game would't be the same.

Oh man. I really hate to tell a person who genuinely likes a game that the game isn't as good as they think it is, but almost everything that Baldur's Gate does is clumsy sleight-of-hand. Edwin and Viconia don't care about your alignment or class, they care about your reputation score. Specifically, they don't like it when it gets too high. What this means is that they will tolerate countless deeds of Lawful Stupid do-goodery from you so long as you occasionally go and kick a puppy in broad daylight. This is literally the lowest implementation of party morale imaginable; Edwin is an imbecile, but even an imbecilic Lawful Evil wizard should understand the value of good publicity.

The interesting party conflicts in Baldur's Gate (and as aweigh says, it's questionable whether they are even a good idea) mostly don't involve your character, they happen between recruitable NPCs; that's because they involve defined characters so there's something to work with there. Even those are abusable; I remember once wanting both Edwin and Minsc in my party, so Dynaheir had to go, so after rescuing her I did the old trick where I locked her in a room before dismissing her so she didn't take Minsc with her; thus, I got to enjoy Edwin and Minsc hating each other for the rest of the playthrough without anyone messing up my party by leaving.

But I guess my question is this; why is it that being able to choose your clan and gender and whatever is better? I mean, I don't think it's bad, it works pretty well in Bloodlines, because "fledgling VtM vampire" is a pretty defined character in my book, but I don't think that character creation does what other people think it does. The way I see it, almost all of the interesting reactivity that cRPGs aspire to have (and inevitably fall short of) can be done even with a fixed protagonist; you can have complex, even systemic interaction with NPCs and companions, different quest solutions, good and evil paths and so forth, and almost all of it is likely to be better written when your character is an actual character.

 

[Cryomancer]

I an subbed to FlyingCowboy, youtuber that has cool dark/demon souls builds and he uploaded a Xenoblade video, since felipepepe recommended, i was watching a little and seriously... A futuristic game has a children with a oversized sword doing nonsensical sword moves(probably saving the world for the 651610654th time)

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There are any of "japanese style"(not talking about western like rpg's made on japan like dark/demon souls and dragon's dogma) where i can use a spear/halberd or attack enemies at range? When i mean range, i don't mean a SCI-FI futuristic rifle that has 10m range. I mean ranged weapons that fells like ranged weapons, doesn't need to be like arma 3, but like metro exodus is good enough IMO. The game doesn't need to let me be a necromancer or a warlock which are my favorite "archetypes", only letting me fight without a fast swinging blade is enough for me.

 

[Somberlain]

People most critical of JRPGs are those who don't play JRPGs.

 

[Cryomancer]

People most critical of JRPGs are those who don't play JRPGs.

Well, the most popular Korean Manga on every metric is Solo Leveling. The protagonist despite being a Generi-kun on the beginning becomes a might necromancer. Better in personality traits and character design. There are any ""JRPG"" where you play with a cool character? Like Alucard's from Hellsing? Nobunaga from Drifters?

 

[Karellen]

You should play Vagrant Story. It's a magnificent game and Ashely Riot is clearly on a level of coolness that far exceeds any other RPG hero. What's more, he can also use spears. Do not tarry, go play it right now.

 

[Lutte]

People most critical of JRPGs are those who don't play JRPGs.

Or they just played some of the more mainstream titles like FF and Tales of and thought that was utter garbage (which is true).
There's so much of a gulf between thoughtless crap like the Tales of, and something actually good, like the SMT series, that I don't even feel like I'm playing one of those 'JRPG things' when I play the latter.

 

[samuraigaiden]

The transition to 3D certainly made developing RPGs more complicated.

 

[Damned Registrations]

When i mean range, i don't mean a SCI-FI futuristic rifle that has 10m range. I mean ranged weapons that fells like ranged weapons, doesn't need to be like arma 3, but like metro exodus is good enough IMO.

You can't make ranged weapons feel like ranged weapons because they'd be OP as fuck. There's a reason we don't fight with fucking swords any more, and the only reason we used them to begin with was that arrows were expensive, otherwise it'd just be 100% archers.

 

[Alex]

Take final fantasy 1 for eg >

• Full party creation, if you wanna have 4 thieves you can.
• Classes for the typical fantasy archetypes(Black Mage, Thieves, Warriors, White Mages, etc)
• Promotion quests
• Random/Dice based stat and hp progression
• Spell slots and "tier based" magical progression where a tier 1 fire spell can deal 40 damage. A Tier 5, 500 damage in ALL enemies.
• OHK spells like Bane.

On SNES JRPG that i loved was 7th saga. In that game, you could play as a ***** demon or as a cyborg. In the past, i criticized a lot JRPG's, but now i realize that there are good ones like Dark Souls and most critique that i had against JRPG's, applies to WRPG's. For eg, the nonsensical armor design applies to both, the lack of choices and consequences, the ludonarrative dissonance, etc.

I still prefer Dark Sun Shattered Lands over Final Fantasy 1, but playing a little of FF1 isn't being a bad experience.

Why they changed so much?

I rated your post decline. Because that is the answer to your question.

 

[Cryomancer]

You can't make ranged weapons feel like ranged weapons because they'd be OP as fuck. There's a reason we don't fight with fucking swords any more, and the only reason we used them to begin with was that arrows were expensive, otherwise it'd just be 100% archers.

As i've said many times Fuck the balance. Immersion, variety and fun is far more important and swords are the most boring, overrated and overrerpresented weapon on the history. Fallout New Vegas has the best guns that i saw in a RPG and i don't care if someone with a knife has no chance against a sniper on power armor, with stealth kit and a anti materiel rifle with explosive rounds at long range.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Yeah yeah, you just want a power fantasy with zero challenge. You'd cry like a bitch if the enemies were the ones with snipers everywhere intsagibbing you before you ever saw them.

 

[Cryomancer]

Yeah yeah, you just want a power fantasy with zero challenge.

Yep; because only the player can use this type of weapons, there aren't a bunker full of people with power armor and deadly high tech weapons. Everyone but the player is running with knifes, there aren't any giantic android scorpion who even with powerful guns and armor piercing rounds, takes a long time to be destroyed. /sarcasm

You'd cry like a bitch if the enemies were the ones with snipers everywhere intsagibbing you before you ever saw them.

Wrong. NCR uses a lot of deadly snipers and some legionaries uses .45-70 rifles at very long range and i died a couple of times to then. IT is a part of the game, was my fault. Not every game should be a fast swinging blade festival. In a DLC, enemies attacks you from range in a canyon.

 

[Damned Registrations]

'Died a couple times.' The game babies the fuck out of you. You shouldn't stand a fucking chance in hell against an armed military with guns because guns are a fucking equalizer. Melee works in rpgs because someone with outrageous skill and strength will murder the shit out of 20 lesser people using the same equipment. You can't say the same about guns. No amount of skill would let you avoid dying instantly to 20 guys with rifles on a wall.

I like mowing down bugs in a shooter too, but don't pretend it's fucking monocled high level gameplay to mow down enemies with no chance of fighting back because you outrange them.

 

[Reinhardt]

I remember reading some book about samurai at the end of shogunate. There was one godly swordsman, one in generation and shieeet. He ambushed some new guys with rifles in the woods, managed to cut dozen or so, then they shot him.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I remember reading some book about samurai at the end of shogunate. There was one godly swordsman, one in generation and shieeet. He ambushed some new guys with rifles in the woods, managed to cut dozen or so, then they shot him.

This sounds suspiciously similar to the ending of Harakiri.

 

[Cryomancer]

You shouldn't stand a fucking chance in hell against an armed military with guns because guns are a fucking equalizer. Melee works in rpgs because someone with outrageous skill and strength will murder the shit out of 20 lesser people using the same equipment. You can't say the same about guns. No amount of skill would let you avoid dying instantly to 20 guys with rifles on a wall.

Both sides has powerful guns on that game. And stealth and tactics can be of a great advantage. Simo Häyhä has killed over 500 enemy soldiers IRL. If you can't see your enemy, your gun is worthless. Oda Nobunaga conquered Japan using firearms. On Europe, during Battle of Agincourt, a small group of longbow archers managed to destroy a much bigger and better equipped army. Ranged is a huge advantage. You should fight ranged attacks with ranged attacks. Ranged weapons deserve more love on most games.

About new vegas, When i decided to assault a legion camp, i took some time scouting without firing any shot. Seeing each one of the member position, trying to take out first the most separated, checked if i can use a escape route if they see me and after killing like 6 members of then, they started to shot me, so i fled and waited some days to attack again. After it, i destroyed the camp. This is why firearms experience on new vegas is so amazing. And almost everyone hates the Dead money DLC which is a DLC where you spend all the time with a explosive collar and they take away all of your guns. With many lucky, you can find a .357 revolver and almost no ammo.

And you can die pretty quickly on new vegas. And you can have your members crippled.

Look to this video at 0:10. A single hit from a deathclaw took alway 2/3 of the hit points of a guy with the strongest armor in the game


If you look to steam achievements, only 4.6% of the users managed to beat the game on hardcore difficulty which ammo weights so you can't have a endless supply of .308 AP and .50 BMG high explosive(308 is not hard to find but .50 BMG, i only know few vendors which sells at very limited supply and it is the most expensive ammo besides grenades and rockets), you need to drink, sleep, eat and "medicine" heals overtime. New vegas is a proof that a RPG can be great on ranged combat.

Other game that i loved is Dragon's Dogma. Rangers and assassins in that game are so amazing. TBH i din't liked sorcerer on that game. Found play as one very boring. Is just click to cast and pray to not be interrupted. While rangers, are aiming on the weakspots of certain enemies.

 

[Reinhardt]

I remember reading some book about samurai at the end of shogunate. There was one godly swordsman, one in generation and shieeet. He ambushed some new guys with rifles in the woods, managed to cut dozen or so, then they shot him.

This sounds suspiciously similar to the ending of Harakiri.

Similar, but no - the book was about 19 century.

 

[Reinhardt]

Oda Nobunaga conquered Japan using firearms.

He didn't - he died before.

 

[mogwaimon]

Oda Nobunaga conquered Japan using firearms.

He didn't - he died before.

he basically kinda did, though. He was well on his way to accomplishing it before Honnouji and it was thanks in no small part to his then revolutionary riflemen tactics at Nagashino. He was well off enough by the time he was assassinated that two of his vassals were the ones who finished out the rest of the war...i mean that's like saying Caesar didn't conquer Rome because he was assassinated before he had time to declare himself Emperor or whatever, he'd basically already done it regardless of whether or not he was actually going to keep the Republic alive or not.

 

[flyingjohn]

As the peom goes:
Oda Nobunaga pounded the rice
Hideyoshi baked the cake
and Tokugawa ate it.

I really wonder what would have happened if Japan took over Korea.With the Mongols gone and China weakened they really could have enacted Empire of japan 0.5 in Asia.
Alas a unknown Korean admiral with a hard on for turtle ships fucked them over.

 

[Cryomancer]

Other thing to mention about new vegas is that you don't start the game with those powerful firearms. You start with a 9mm pistol and a 556 bolt action rifle in poor contrition, very prone to jam. When you become the service rifle which is a 556 semi automatic, you start to be able to take out some more tough encounters but nothing like a deathclaw(which can OHK you). Scoped weapons are expensive and require high skill/stats otherwise you have to deal with a drunk sway. The light machine gun in 556, the brush gun, the anti materiel rifle with explosive rounds are all end game weapons.

This type of progression is amazing in ANY game. What i also don't like on most JRPG's is that you start the game with a androgynous teenager with a oversized sword and end the game with it. And few more combos and "materias" but look to Gothic melee progression. When Bezi start the game, he barely can hold a weapon. IF he pays someone to teach him one handed, his stance and moveset changes accordingly. On end game, he is ludicrous overpowered and the sense of power is amazing because you ran in fear many times to survive.

Dark Souls is a JRPG where you can progress with your character and thus is extremely more rewarding than just having your character progressing.