Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language

[DalekFlay]

It's a nod to the tabletop systems and consistent with the rest of the game. Did you bring enough supplies to prepare for your journey?

I actually appreciated it, personally. I thought it was a nice touch on an aspect that too many games just hand wave or gloss over. Outside of something like Ultima with the food number or Realms of Arkania with all sorts of preparation items to manage, I can't think of many games that actually deal with travel and its necessities.

Supplies are irrelevant, you can just hunt and carrying that many rations is silly (especially when you guys are telling me to stay "light"). Timer mostly irrelevant for me so far, and you could just increase the travel time anyway to make it have the same impact.

Again, the flawed thing is the gameplay mechanic of stopping and resting during map travel killing the pacing for no real purpose. You want to go from map marker A to map marker B and you have to stop and do the tedious resting process that has no deeper gameplay functionality a few more hours on the clock couldn't handle. It's just clicking two buttons and waiting to move on the same route you were already going down, delaying you getting to the real gameplay. Your second sentence seems to be more the motivation, but I've never been one to desire pointless realism nods in video games. If you can't just assume they're resting during the normal travel time you're probably on the spectrum.

 

[Tom Baker's Arse]

>why is the kingmaker fanbase so awful
We're a callous lot. Both of determination and iron will. The whole lot of us were forged in the inferno hell that is arguing with toilet pen and paper players, casuals, and TB fanatics. Men like Gregz are dime of a dozen. It's always the same talking points with these faggots. They never change, nor do they present anything of unique value.

Dearie, I've been playing pen and paper RP games since Nixon was in office. Let that sink in, Sancho. Its arrogant piss-ants like yourself that make it easy to rip to shreds made-like-shit games like Bugfinder: Cuckmaker.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Supplies are irrelevant

Depending on the rolls for the hunt, supplies can decrease the resting from 24 hours to 9. But to each his own, for sure.

 

[DalekFlay]

Depending on the rolls for the hunt, supplies can decrease the resting from 24 hours to 9. But to each his own, for sure.

I get the points you're making, that resting during map travel adds some decisions to how much the clock is padded. I'm trying to say I think they could add that in without the tedious action of actually resting multiple times to cross the map. Maybe the formula for how much time traveling takes could depend on your ration stock, or your companion skill at athletics, or something like that. Instead it's just travel, stop, travel, stop, travel... all just to get back to base and sell some shit.

Anyway, a minor annoyance in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

I've installed the game and deinstalled it the same day. It is ugly. I don't want to play it. I don't feel connection with any of the ugly pictures that are trying to represent my character or whatever. Also writing style is somehow interwoven with gopnik elements which is unexpectedly interesting, but looks more consistent in ATOM RPG and not in the wanna be high fantasy RPG.

Also I hate cartoonish style, bright colorful lights and blasts and life itself. Tried it just for you, Codex. Now I know for sure I can't trust you)

 

[NJClaw]

Also I hate cartoonish style, bright colorful lights and blasts and life itself. Tried it just for you, Codex. Now I know for sure I can't trust you)

I hate the cartoonish style in a way I cannot describe, but the game is still worth a playthrough.

 

[panda]

Depending on the rolls for the hunt, supplies can decrease the resting from 24 hours to 9. But to each his own, for sure.

I get the points you're making, that resting during map travel adds some decisions to how much the clock is padded. I'm trying to say I think they could add that in without the tedious action of actually resting multiple times to cross the map. Maybe the formula for how much time traveling takes could depend on your ration stock, or your companion skill at athletics, or something like that.

Game already takes into account party's physical stats. 18/18 STR/CON barbarians, rangers with pets e.t.c will be able to travel much further then party of wizards, rogues or other skinny types while carrying heavier load. Speed is affected by encumbrance, so it can be said that physically fit party on average will be faster too.
Extending it any further with your suggestions would mean taking control ouf of player's hands and would made the whole system overcomplicated, not consistent with tactical map resting and overall less transparent.
Here is the thing currently: if you don't like resting in the middle of a travel then don't. It is entirely up to you to decide how much risk you are going to take in the next random encounter. As party leader you are in complete control of resource/risk/time management without any hidden formulas interfering.

While I understand the point about somewhat pointless stops, that is only from "IRL time waste perspective" (which can be resolved by mods i think if it bothers you too much).
In game world those stops are completely logical and necessary even, while their frequecy and duration are dictated by party's composition and overall stats. Which is pretty fucking awesome if you ask me.

 

[Desiderius]

Also giving Octavia a CON belt.

WHY would you use Octavia?

To own people who don't think she can use a bow. In other words not often. Jub is that good and there's too much overlap.

This time I'm finally making her a straight up caster though and not using Jub so we'll see.

 

[Desiderius]

Then you'll be resting a lot. Bags of holding and/or a pet makes light easy. Also giving Octavia a CON belt. Using meals that extend stamina, etc... There are a lot of ways (that all make a big difference) to manage it. I hardly have to rest at all. You can also keep traveling with fatigue since it's only -2/-2. Exhaustion is where it really hurts.

I'll look at keeping it light, but the real point here isn't that resting on the map is hard or anything. It's that I think the entire mechanic is a flaw of the game. Resting in a zone makes sense as a game mechanic, resting on the map just takes time for no reason. There's no trick or strategy to it, there's no deeper purpose, it's just some useless nod to "realism" when you could just assume resting periodically was part of the travel time. No matter how easy or hard it is to deal with, I think it's dumb.

There is. You're just doing it wrong.

Let us know when you're ready to pull your head out of your ass and do it right. Until then you're wasting everyone's time, especially your own.

 

[DalekFlay]

While I understand the point about somewhat pointless stops, that is only from "IRL time waste perspective" (which can be resolved by mods i think if it bothers you too much).
In game world those stops are completely logical and necessary even, while their frequecy and duration are dictated by party's composition and overall stats. Which is pretty fucking awesome if you ask me.

There is. You're just doing it wrong.

Let us know when you're ready to pull your head out of your ass and do it right. Until then you're wasting everyone's time, especially your own.

Lots of "in the game world this is unrealistic" stuff can be pointed out in any game. It's not a solid reason for a game mechanic. In the game world having 4 bastard swords on-hand to switch between is unlikely, let alone each person carrying ~100 pounds into combat or "stealthing" right in front of someone because of their high stats. No one cares about that shit because it's a video game, so no one should care about "seeing the resting when you travel." What should be cared about is how good/fun/useful the mechanic is, and what it adds to gameplay.

The argument that it adds to the clock management is fine, but my counter is that there are more enjoyable ways to do that without the tedium. You guys seem to think I don't understand how to make it happen 10% less or whatever, but I do. I think managing encumbrance to light would be even more tedious, but I'll see. Still the point is I'm arguing the mechanic itself is stupid, not certain aspects of it. Reminds me of when I complained about how bad The Witcher's combat is and people told me to play on the hardest difficulty so it's tougher and requires more planning... I don't want it to be tougher, or easier for that matter, I want it to be less functionally bad. I want the game to have better combat. Similarly I wish Pathfinder had better resting/map travel mechanics, not that those mechanics were easier or less frequent.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

Also I hate cartoonish style, bright colorful lights and blasts and life itself. Tried it just for you, Codex. Now I know for sure I can't trust you)

I hate the cartoonish style in a way I cannot describe, but the game is still worth a playthrough.

But why?

 

[Desiderius]

The argument that it adds to the clock management is fine, but my counter is that there are more enjoyable ways to do that without the tedium. You guys seem to think I don't understand how to make it happen 10% less or whatever, but I do. I think managing encumbrance to light would be even more tedious, but I'll see. Still the point is I'm arguing the mechanic itself is stupid, not certain aspects of it. Reminds me of when I complained about how bad The Witcher's combat is and people told me to play on the hardest difficulty so it's tougher and requires more planning... I don't want it to be tougher, or easier for that matter, I want it to be less functionally bad. I want the game to have better combat. Similarly I wish Pathfinder had better resting/map travel mechanics, not that those mechanics were easier or less frequent.

So you're not ready to pull your head out yet. Fair enough. Enjoy the smell.

(You don't know enough yet to reach the conclusions you're jumping to. There are 6 or 7 different ways to reduce the need to rest - not 10% but in fact altogether should you choose, the screen itself is not tedious but rather allows one to manage 5 or 6 meaningful decisions as you'll discover over the course of playing the game, and it wouldn't be an issue in the first place if you weren't picking up worthless junk.)

 

[LannTheStupid]

Actually, in my current run I am already missing the rest, and I'm just before the Season of Bloom. The party banter is priceless, especially with Jaethal and Regongar in one group.

 

[DalekFlay]

(You don't know enough yet to reach the conclusions you're jumping to. There are 6 or 7 different ways to reduce the need to rest - not 10% but in fact altogether should you choose, the screen itself is not tedious but rather allows one to manage 5 or 6 meaningful decisions as you'll discover over the course of playing the game, and it wouldn't be an issue in the first place if you weren't picking up worthless junk.)

You realize it getting less tedious later in the game doesn't make it any less tedious the first 20 hours, right? Of course I'm commenting on the experience so far, where it's a shit mechanic I think negatively impacts the experience. Again... managing it better, making it less frequent, does not make the mechanic good. It just makes it less frequent in its badness. I don't know how else to explain that.

Also maybe you should be less triggered by someone who loves the game and thinks one small aspect of it is poor, eh?

 

[Darth Canoli]

You PK apologist are hilarious, this game was coded by baboons, that travel shit is just a nightmare, luckily, modders saved the game, or half the buyers would have refunded that crap.

 

[Desiderius]

(You don't know enough yet to reach the conclusions you're jumping to. There are 6 or 7 different ways to reduce the need to rest - not 10% but in fact altogether should you choose, the screen itself is not tedious but rather allows one to manage 5 or 6 meaningful decisions as you'll discover over the course of playing the game, and it wouldn't be an issue in the first place if you weren't picking up worthless junk.)

You realize it getting less tedious later in the game doesn't make it any less tedious the first 20 hours, right? Of course I'm commenting on the experience so far, where it's a shit mechanic I think negatively impacts the experience. Again... managing it better, making it less frequent, does not make the mechanic good. It just makes it less frequent in its badness. I don't know how else to explain that.

Also maybe you should be less triggered by someone who loves the game and thinks one small aspect of it is poor, eh?

No, not right.

Unless you dumped CON, didn't play with a pet (perfectly reasonable choice), and are picking up too much junk (talk about tedious!) it shouldn't be a problem from the get go, let alone 20 hrs in. Press space to skip banter and rest goes super quick once you figure out the interface and how you want to play it. Make first purchase Bag of Holding from Oleg and keep extra weapons in chest next to bed.

When people complain about choices we get less which sucks. When you complain about non-existent problems it sucks even worse. Trigger whatever. You'll find legit things to complain about - game's far from perfect. Don't think you've got to invent things and talk out your ass just so Dork Canoli here doesn't call you a fanboi shill.

 

[user]

You realize it getting less tedious later in the game doesn't make it any less tedious the first 20 hours, right? Of course I'm commenting on the experience so far, where it's a shit mechanic I think negatively impacts the experience. Again... managing it better, making it less frequent, does not make the mechanic good. It just makes it less frequent in its badness. I don't know how else to explain that.

In general: internal realism is always good as long as it is not detrimental to the experience/gameplay.
How is it detrimental for you? Are you in such a rush? I am saddened that kind of these mechanics aren't appreciated by everyone here. Why make players move slower on mountainous etc terrain on the map? Does it make any real difference? Why keep random encounters? What's their purpose? Why have the player actually move from area to area? Isn't it tedious? Let the player teleport instantly from one area to another and just skip an amount of time. Etc etc.

You get to use your skills more and you are complaining about that? You get some banter, some RP, some kind of resemblance of how a journey would look like and QOL progression with your power reflected in logistics as well that makes it a breeze a bit later in the game, but meh, fuck it, not like this is an rpg or anything.

 

[nyjsu]

Only thing I really agree with is that the late game kingdom management really feels like chore. Sure, it might be realistic in a sense that managing kingdom is a stressful and difficult job, but it really drains the energy out of the game. And even though the plot and characters are mediocre at best, the combat is absolutely fantastic and I love exploring the world map. Fatigue is really no big deal after you've acquired at least one Bag of holding and I even like the little camping "mini-game" with different roles, cooking recipes and so on.
Obviously the game is named Kingmaker so some sort of kingdom management is justifiable but the game would've been so much better if they had tuned it down a little. I hope they've learned from their mistakes when they release WotR.

 

[DalekFlay]

In general: internal realism is always good as long as it is not detrimental to the experience/gameplay.

I could quibble with the wording, but I generally agree. The problem is it is detrimental to the experience. Again though, we're talking about a small part of the game I think is stupid, amidst an overwhelming enjoyment.

How is it detrimental for you? Are you in such a rush? I am saddened that kind of these mechanics aren't appreciated by everyone here.

Because it has no point, it's a tedious menu for no purpose.

1) Unless those 6 or so hunting hours are a significant burden on the time limits, which everyone says they're not, then it's a completely pointless waste of time in a completely boring menu.

2) Even if you think these time limit skill impacts are important, you could do them in a much more seamless and less tedious way. The already included terrain differences and travel time mechanics themselves are fine, because they aren't tedious. You could easily do the same with resting. Like for example your little figure moving on the map could pause for a moment while a short message popped up saying "resting: 9 hours" or whatever, before quickly moving on. You don't need the tedious map menu resting process to accomplish the goal.

Fallout had the same time limit and map travel mechanics, without feeling tedious.

 

[Desiderius]

You're going to look back on this thread and be embarrassed once you understand the game, but by all means keep digging.

 

[DalekFlay]

You're going to look back on this thread and be embarrassed once you understand the game, but by all means keep digging.

As I just fucking explained, it's the menu/process I find shitty, so I really doubt that. You could reduce my fatigue 90%, make rations weightless and free and kill the time limit entirely and I'd still think it's a shitty process. You told me to take my head out of my ass, but you can't seem to get your mind around this simple fucking point.

 

[Alphard]

i haven't played the game but i trust my gut that this is another boring isometric rpg overhyped by codex only because "muh oldschool"

 

[LannTheStupid]

Alphard You are absolutely correct. Now could you please go and back the Wrath of the Righteous Kickatsrter so we can have another alte Schule game?

 

[Alphard]

Also who thoughts adding a time limit of any sort in a game is a good idea?
it's either a useless gimmick :" you have one hour to traverse 3 room to exit and burning building" seen in modern aaa shit, or the even worse you can actually lose the game .
it is worse because it sucks all the enjoyment out of the game. either you play the game at the pace devs want or you are done. also very stressful. i play games to evade real real responsibilities and not to think about deadlines, not to find new deadlines and new stress.
but muh immersion, muh, realism. then implement all of the shitty and unfun "mechanics" of RL in vidya so you can do the same things you do in real on a calculator

 

[Harthwain]

Also who thoughts adding a time limit of any sort in a game is a good idea?

It makes time management (read: action management) an important part of the game. I am not a big fan of time limits myself, but I can see value in them, if they are done properly.