Why RPGCodex is censored at the ESF

[denizsi]

Obviously to expose whoever writes "motherfucker"

 

[Hungry Donner]

Which you've singularly failed to do since your idea of clarification is

a) I don't know why the Codex is censored, so I can't tell you anything

and

b) I can't be bothered to find out so that I can tell you something.

There are two issues here. The first is why the Codex has been censored, the second is that people keep asking the moderators to explain why this is, and then they get frustrated that we can only speculate.

I can't give you the specific reason why the Codex has been censored. However I can help with the second issue. When we asked the admin what to tell people when they asked about this they said to direct people to them.

what sort of answer do you think we're likely to get...

I'd guess an unsatisfactory one.

But at least you can gripe about Bethesa's official responce.

Given the way that the Codex is treated like a supperating leper at the ESF and, according to you, it's a decision made by the admins that is the root cause of that: what sort of answer do you think we're likely to get... if any at all?

Probably an instant ban

Considering that I suggest that people e-mail Bethesda I think a ban is unlikely

• The extremely petty and childish behaviour of the admins in their choice of the auto-censor replacement for RPGCodex

As I pointed out before, the auto-censor replies are meant to be ironic or humorous.

Mods must have (read-only) access to the list of censored words.

Nope, but it's easy enough to preview a post/PM with terms in it to get the replacement, and in most cases the replacement is simply [censored]. A while back the admin decided to remove all of the humorous replacement terms, with the exception being those replacing URLs and phrases. There have also been a few terms added since then that have humorous replacements.

• The fact that, should any of the ESFers want a different take on Oblivion or role-playing games in general, there is no easy way for them to be directed to this site -- which once again smacks of censorship for the sake of keeping the peons ignorant of any differing opinions

There are many people on the ESF who are quite critical of Oblivion, and many who feel that it isn't an RPG.

If you see someone expressing these opinions and you think they would enjoy the Codex there is nothing stopping you from PMing them the URL.

 

[OccupatedVoid]

There are many people on the ESF who are quite critical of Oblivion, and many who feel that it isn't an RPG.

Before summer gets to them... *horror music*

 

[Monica21]

Yes, it is a very big deal. Bethesda has been misrepresenting their product since before release, and have been censoring anyone who tries to make the truth known. Through censorship and the resulting uncontested/disproven hype, Bethesda is able to succeed in the game-market, and not only will this success influence the direction of RPGs, it will also influence the online marketing of games, game systems, and ultimately anything else that can succeed under this new business model established by Bethesda.

Yes, today Oblivion may simply be an overhyped shitty game, sold in bits and pieces to an unknowing and forgetful public. However if we allow companies to misrepresent their products to us in such a manner while silencing our efforts to produce objective analysis and critique where they will be seen by other potential customers, then this problem of false representation is going to perpetuate far beyond simply the marketing of shitty games.

You make it sound all so very conspiracy-theory like. They're not censoring people who dislike the game. They close threads when they get to be inflammatory and ban users who are consistent troublemakers (like yourself).

As much as you might like to think so, the Codex cannot, by itself, change the direction of RPGs today. Links to the Codex will not change anyone's mind. Although VD's review of Oblivion is the best I've read and from my perspective, the most accurate, it also won't change anyone's mind. People might agree with his points, but go back to Oblivion because they just don't care if they have six choices or one. You can't make someone like something because you can't change someone's mind. Darkflame, if you'd started out on the ESF without falsely representing yourself (ironically the same thing you say Bethesda's doing) then it's quite likely you'd still have an account there and still be able to post whatever you thought about the game as long as you followed the forum rules. But you don't and don't choose to. That's your problem.

As for the Codex, again, I just don't care that it's censored. I've said before that I think it's probably personal and that the moderators will likely never find out unless they were specifically involved in whatever lead to the censorship. It's still Bethesda's site and they can still market their product however they see fit, whether you or I or anyone else agrees with that representation. Spending your time in this thread hassling an ESF moderator isn't getting the Codex any closer to getting their names being mentioned on the ESF.

 

[Ahzaruuk]

There are many people on the ESF who are quite critical of Oblivion, and many who feel that it isn't an RPG.

Before summer gets to them... *horror music*

Only if the PM is reported. Mods Cannot read other people's PMs.

Edit: Woah. :shock: *blinks*

 

[callehe]

As much as you might like to think so, the Codex cannot, by itself, change the direction of RPGs today. Links to the Codex will not change anyone's mind.

therefore it shouldn't be allowed to discuss it at all? if bethesda were thinking as you did, obviously they wouldn't hype their product (can't change anyones mind afterall) and wouldn't censor their forum (again can't change anyones mind).

try to convince bethesda first.

 

[Darkflame]

Given the way that the Codex is treated like a supperating leper at the ESF and, according to you, it's a decision made by the admins that is the root cause of that: what sort of answer do you think we're likely to get... if any at all?

Probably an instant ban

Considering that I suggest that people e-mail Bethesda I think a ban is unlikely

Considering that you tricky moderators have some secret method for eventually tracking down and banning every single account I've ever created over there, I'm sure you would run the authors of any emails you receive up against the user database, and ban any user with that same email... you already do it with IPs, in spite of knowing that its very possible in this day and age for multiple users to share public proxies and thus have the same IP.

Yes, it is a very big deal. Bethesda has been misrepresenting their product since before release, and have been censoring anyone who tries to make the truth known. Through censorship and the resulting uncontested/disproven hype, Bethesda is able to succeed in the game-market, and not only will this success influence the direction of RPGs, it will also influence the online marketing of games, game systems, and ultimately anything else that can succeed under this new business model established by Bethesda.

Yes, today Oblivion may simply be an overhyped shitty game, sold in bits and pieces to an unknowing and forgetful public. However if we allow companies to misrepresent their products to us in such a manner while silencing our efforts to produce objective analysis and critique where they will be seen by other potential customers, then this problem of false representation is going to perpetuate far beyond simply the marketing of shitty games.

You make it sound all so very conspiracy-theory like. They're not censoring people who dislike the game. They close threads when they get to be inflammatory and ban users who are consistent troublemakers (like yourself).

As much as you might like to think so, the Codex cannot, by itself, change the direction of RPGs today. Links to the Codex will not change anyone's mind. Although VD's review of Oblivion is the best I've read and from my perspective, the most accurate, it also won't change anyone's mind. People might agree with his points, but go back to Oblivion because they just don't care if they have six choices or one. You can't make someone like something because you can't change someone's mind. Darkflame, if you'd started out on the ESF without falsely representing yourself (ironically the same thing you say Bethesda's doing) then it's quite likely you'd still have an account there and still be able to post whatever you thought about the game as long as you followed the forum rules. But you don't and don't choose to. That's your problem.

As for the Codex, again, I just don't care that it's censored. I've said before that I think it's probably personal and that the moderators will likely never find out unless they were specifically involved in whatever lead to the censorship. It's still Bethesda's site and they can still market their product however they see fit, whether you or I or anyone else agrees with that representation. Spending your time in this thread hassling an ESF moderator isn't getting the Codex any closer to getting their names being mentioned on the ESF.

I know we're a cynical bunch here, but you doubt the Codex that much? This place does have the potential to influence future RPGs, because the members here represent buyers in a currently untapped market. Consider that during the making of Oblivion the Beth devs were posting here instead of their own pitiful forums (Codex opinions may have been ignored, but they were consulted nonetheless).

What if other game developers consulted here? What if the Codex was their first stop in searching for advice, reviews and reliable beta testers for their games? Granted, the member numbers here are few compared to those of other "official" forums, but you've seen how unreliable and chaotic official forums are... Recently, the Codex has aquired many renegade ESFers (inspite of the Codex being censored over there), but what other gaming sites are drawing members to the Codex? Like it or not, the more members that we gain, the more influence we have; the problem is getting like-minded members without attracting fanboys, but I'm willing to bet that there are many gamers out there who are disgruntled with the recent barrage of lackluster games and who also, as of yet, are unaware of this site and its collection of seasoned misfits.

To gain more influence the Codex could also create its own RPG, and show other game developers how to do it properly. Unlike you, I think you can change someone's mind, if you expose them to something new (and judging by the game-lists that young players post online, its obvious that many of them have never been exposed to an actual RPG).

The Codex does have the potential to influence how RPGs are made, however its all up to its members to realize that and work towards such an objective.

 

[OccupatedVoid]

As much as you might like to think so, the Codex cannot, by itself, change the direction of RPGs today. Links to the Codex will not change anyone's mind.

Why are they censored then?!

...LOGICAL ERROR...

 

[Ahzaruuk]

As much as you might like to think so, the Codex cannot, by itself, change the direction of RPGs today. Links to the Codex will not change anyone's mind.

Why are they censored then?!

...LOGICAL ERROR...

That's pretty much going back to square one.

 

[OccupatedVoid]

As much as you might like to think so, the Codex cannot, by itself, change the direction of RPGs today. Links to the Codex will not change anyone's mind.

Why are they censored then?!

...LOGICAL ERROR...

That's pretty much going back to square one.

Actually, the topic's title is not a question; it is a statement! So what is really █ one?

 

[Monica21]

As much as you might like to think so, the Codex cannot, by itself, change the direction of RPGs today. Links to the Codex will not change anyone's mind.

Why are they censored then?!

...LOGICAL ERROR...

1. This is a relatively small forum with only 2500 registered users. It would be interesting to know how many lurkers there are, but I don't know if there's any way to tell. What that tells me is that, compared to Oblivion players and people who bothered to register on the ESF, that what Codex posters want in an RPG make up a tiny percentage of people who play RPGs or games with RPG type elements. This is why the Codex, by itself, will not change anyone's mind. You have to already have a certain mindset or be leaning a certain way to have this forum be appealing for RPG discussions.

2. The Codex is hardly a secret, even on the ESF. Anyone can register and post here.

3. If Bethesda is trying to drown out dissenting opinion and links to negative reviews, they're doing a very poor job. Problem is that there really aren't too many negative reviews.

4. If you'd read my post, you'd know that (this is the third time I've said this now, and I get really fucking tired of repeating myself) the censoring is probably personal. I don't know why and I don't care, but that's the only reason I can think of, especially since admins are making moderators look for reasons for why it's censored instead of just telling them.

 

[Monica21]

Considering that you tricky moderators have some secret method for eventually tracking down and banning every single account I've ever created over there, I'm sure you would run the authors of any emails you receive up against the user database, and ban any user with that same email... you already do it with IPs, in spite of knowing that its very possible in this day and age for multiple users to share public proxies and thus have the same IP.

Seriously, don't bitch about getting continually banned when you do nothing but troll.

I know we're a cynical bunch here, but you doubt the Codex that much? This place does have the potential to influence future RPGs, because the members here represent buyers in a currently untapped market. Consider that during the making of Oblivion the Beth devs were posting here instead of their own pitiful forums (Codex opinions may have been ignored, but they were consulted nonetheless).

I doubt posters like you who seem to have only registered here to flame Bethesda. That said, I doubt that the Codex, by itself, can have any significant impact on the RPG market. There have to be a lot more users than the 2500 currently here. Sure it's an untapped market, but we all have our Arcanum's to play. Why make another Arcanum when you can make a pretty fantasy-land slasher, give some stat points, call it an RPG and sell 100x more copies?

What if other game developers consulted here? What if the Codex was their first stop in searching for advice, reviews and reliable beta testers for their games?

"What if what if what if...." They don't. That's all that matters. Could they? Sure. Are they aware of the Codex? Of course. But you think a corporation is going to use the Codex as a test market for an RPG? I think that's wishful thinking. I'm much more interested in seeing how an actual product like Age of Decadence is received than in what a tiny percentage of players think about games. AoD definitely has the potential to change how RPGs are made.

Granted, the member numbers here are few compared to those of other "official" forums, but you've seen how unreliable and chaotic official forums are... Recently, the Codex has aquired many renegade ESFers (in spite of the Codex being censored over there), but what other gaming sites are drawing members to the Codex?

I think that's more likely because they get pissy after being banned. Sound familiar?

Like it or not, the more members that we gain, the more influence we have; the problem is getting like-minded members without attracting fanboys, but I'm willing to bet that there are many gamers out there who are disgruntled with the recent barrage of lackluster games and who also, as of yet, are unaware of this site and its collection of seasoned misfits.

Possibly, but as I've said, the Codex isn't a secret.

To gain more influence the Codex could also create its own RPG, and show other game developers how to do it properly. Unlike you, I think you can change someone's mind, if you expose them to something new (and judging by the game-lists that young players post online, its obvious that many of them have never been exposed to an actual RPG).

It's quite possible that I'm simply cynical and think that games will never be like they used to be. I think kids get used to something and keep playing what they first started playing. I think "kids these days" aren't that bright and want a button-mashing game. I could be wrong.

 

[Darkflame]

This is a relatively small forum with only 2500 registered users. What that tells me is that, compared to Oblivion players and people who bothered to register on the ESF, that what Codex posters want in an RPG make up a tiny percentage of people who play RPGs or games with RPG type elements.

2500 people who know what they want in an RPG can be far more influential than 250,000 idiots who have no clue.

 

[Monica21]

2500 people who know what they want in an RPG can be far more influential than 250,000 idiots who have no clue.

Except that 1.7 million people (at least) bought Oblivion. That's money in Bethesda's pocket. Why care what 2500 people who won't buy your game think?

 

[KreideBein]

This is a relatively small forum with only 2500 registered users. What that tells me is that, compared to Oblivion players and people who bothered to register on the ESF, that what Codex posters want in an RPG make up a tiny percentage of people who play RPGs or games with RPG type elements.

2500 people who know what they want in an RPG can be far more influential than 250,000 idiots who have no clue.

The key word there is "can". Yes, in theory it's possible that 2,500 people could facilitate a large scale change. However, I don't see how the Codex is that 2,500 people. And really there aren't even that many people here - many of those registered here don't post anymore. Furthermore, most, if not all, of the Oblivion fanboys will not be swayed from their position if they're presented with the ideas of the Codex. The most likely thing that will happen if the Codex is uncensored at the ESF is that a lot of people like Vipera will register here and overwhelm the older posters. To be honest, the censoring might actually be good for the Codex.

 

[callehe]

I'm much more interested in seeing how an actual product like Age of Decadence is received than in what a tiny percentage of players think about games. AoD definitely has the potential to change how RPGs are made.

AoD embodies what a lot of ppl at rpgcodex consider a good rpg, and I certainly believe alot of input from the codex has been intentionally incorporated into AoD. If AoD succeeds then the discussions on codex shouldn't be without credit, not depreciating the efforts of VD and his team. what this tiny percentage of players thinks carries weight if AoD is successful.

 

[Monica21]

AoD embodies what a lot of ppl at rpgcodex consider a good rpg, and I certainly believe alot of input from the codex has been intentionally incorporated into AoD. If AoD succeeds then the discussions on codex shouldn't be without credit, not depreciating the efforts of VD and his team. what this tiny percentage of players thinks carries weight if AoD is successful.

Exactly what I'm saying. Right now there's a lot of talk about what is and isn't good, but teams like Iron Tower and Zero-Sum are doing more than talking. A lot of talk doesn't get you very far in this market without something tangible to back up what you're saying.

 

[Darkflame]

Considering that you tricky moderators have some secret method for eventually tracking down and banning every single account I've ever created over there, I'm sure you would run the authors of any emails you receive up against the user database, and ban any user with that same email... you already do it with IPs, in spite of knowing that its very possible in this day and age for multiple users to share public proxies and thus have the same IP.

Seriously, don't bitch about getting continually banned when you do nothing but troll.

I've contributed a bit more than simply a few awful trolls, but I take it you don't visit the Mods section very often.

I know we're a cynical bunch here, but you doubt the Codex that much? This place does have the potential to influence future RPGs, because the members here represent buyers in a currently untapped market. Consider that during the making of Oblivion the Beth devs were posting here instead of their own pitiful forums (Codex opinions may have been ignored, but they were consulted nonetheless).

I doubt posters like you who seem to have only registered here to flame Bethesda. That said, I doubt that the Codex, by itself, can have any significant impact on the RPG market. There have to be a lot more users than the 2500 currently here. Sure it's an untapped market, but we all have our Arcanum's to play. Why make another Arcanum when you can make a pretty fantasy-land slasher, give some stat points, call it an RPG and sell 100x more copies?

There has to be a limit to how trivialized a game can get before enough people will be pissed off enough to speak out and cause the demand for such games to slide. It would be pretty cool if the Codex were known as an influential proponent behind such collapse rather than as a group of naysayers. Besides, Bethesda deserves every flame they get.

What if other game developers consulted here? What if the Codex was their first stop in searching for advice, reviews and reliable beta testers for their games?

"What if what if what if...." They don't. That's all that matters. Could they? Sure. Are they aware of the Codex? Of course. But you think a corporation is going to use the Codex as a test market for an RPG? I think that's wishful thinking. I'm much more interested in seeing how an actual product like Age of Decadence is received than in what a tiny percentage of players think about games. AoD definitely has the potential to change how RPGs are made.

Are they really aware of the Codex? That depends on which forum you observe. I think a corporation competing with Bethesda and the makers of other bastardized RPGs would be wise to consult the Codex if they wanted their product to gain an edge over virtually every other game out there- RPGs did have a market prior to Ultima VIII, afterwhich products were simplified to appeal to larger audiences. The original target audience for RPGs may have dried up some, but the levels that comprised it are feasibly much larger today, as there are more PCs available. Of course, much of that group are younger people who have never played an actual RPG, but who would enjoy them if they did.

Granted, the member numbers here are few compared to those of other "official" forums, but you've seen how unreliable and chaotic official forums are... Recently, the Codex has aquired many renegade ESFers (in spite of the Codex being censored over there), but what other gaming sites are drawing members to the Codex?

I think that's more likely because they get pissy after being banned. Sound familiar?

Yea it sounds familiar... that's why those pissed off should change their IP and create new accounts.

However, I was suggesting that there isn't a large flow of Codex members from other forums. A recent poll suggested over a third of us are from ESF... the Codex isn't a secret, but without the word out about its existence on other gaming sites, it might as fucking well be. There are tons of resources the Codex could tap if it were serious about drawing in many new members... but again, that can be risky.

Again, it all comes down to publicity. Without knowledge of the Codex, developers aren't exactly able to survey us, and members that would potentially join aren't able to.

Like it or not, the more members that we gain, the more influence we have; the problem is getting like-minded members without attracting fanboys, but I'm willing to bet that there are many gamers out there who are disgruntled with the recent barrage of lackluster games and who also, as of yet, are unaware of this site and its collection of seasoned misfits.

Possibly, but as I've said, the Codex isn't a secret.

To gain more influence the Codex could also create its own RPG, and show other game developers how to do it properly. Unlike you, I think you can change someone's mind, if you expose them to something new (and judging by the game-lists that young players post online, its obvious that many of them have never been exposed to an actual RPG).

It's quite possible that I'm simply cynical and think that games will never be like they used to be. I think kids get used to something and keep playing what they first started playing. I think "kids these days" aren't that bright and want a button-mashing game. I could be wrong.

They want button-mashing because they don't know any better. Who wouldn't want a game with six options as opposed a game with just one? The problem is, none of these kids has ever seen a game with six options before. Many on ESF who claimed Oblivion was the best RPG ever also acknowledged it as the only RPG they'd ever played. In order for people to like something, they must be exposed to it, and of course thats kind of hard when decent RPGs are no longer targetted to the younger generation. If they were, many kids would pick them up; if they love a game that offers as much freedom as Oblivion does, imagine what they'd think of a real RPG.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

I've contributed a bit more than simply a few awful trolls, but I take it you don't visit the Mods section very often.

...quite.

 

[denizsi]

You can't make someone like something because you can't change someone's mind.

Isn't this one of the most narrow-minded opinions expressed? You can make someone like something (s)he didn't like before or make him or her dislike something (s)he used to like, through different means and it happens and it also has happened in the past. There are examples of that here.

Exposition to a wide range of variants or alternatives of / to the subject (an ideal, a movie, a band, a game, a book, politics etc..) is always a good thing. Sometimes, exposition to better variants helps the person raise his or her own standards and exposition to lower variants reassures his or her position with his or her tastes and choices. In fact, whole history of human race is full of examples of that, otherwise there would hardly be change and progress at all in general. How can you even suggest that it's not possible?

Sometimes, someone comes along and utters a few words so simple yet unthought of, it almost looks like a joke that it hasn't been spoken of before, and for some people, it can make drastic changes.

Seriously, don't bitch about getting continually banned when you do nothing but troll.

Not to defend Darkflame but, he had a valid point about proxies and IPs, which you chose not to answer. At least I know that it's valid and true because I've experienced it myself, being banned without reason once before, and then unbanned the next day without any explanation; a mistake on the responsible mod's part, apparently.

edit: What if someone links to a thread in a different forum, which in turn links to here? Will (s)he get a warning or ban again?

 

[OccupatedVoid]

2500 people who know what they want in an RPG can be far more influential than 250,000 idiots who have no clue.

Except that 1.7 million people (at least) bought Oblivion. That's money in Bethesda's pocket. Why care what 2500 people who won't buy your game think?

And how many were sold on e-Bay or returned to the store?

I admit, I bought Oblivion. It sucked as an RPG, so I returned it to the store. Believe it or not, I saw a lot of copies on e-Bay shortly after release.

 

[Lumpy]

Considering that you tricky moderators have some secret method for eventually tracking down and banning every single account I've ever created over there, I'm sure you would run the authors of any emails you receive up against the user database, and ban any user with that same email... you already do it with IPs, in spite of knowing that its very possible in this day and age for multiple users to share public proxies and thus have the same IP.

Are you a fucking moron? You've been acting like an idiot for the past months, creating trolling accounts on the ESF, and now you're complaining that the moderators have been banning all accounts with your email address and IP?
By the way, let me guess. You're an ESF refugee who hates Bethesda because of Oblivion. You've joined the Codex because it's like an Anti-Bethesda site, and to be cool you've been trolling the ESF.
And the list of topics you've been posting in is very interesting:

Why RPGCodex is censored at the ESF
Initial Impressions
Best Thread Ever. (part 2)
Your top 5 RPG list
why you should really like Oblivion
Hello and some praise to Bethesda
Bethesda is now officially a nazi state!
Which Oblivion Dev Lied The Most?
Bethesda design philosophy in a nutshell
Gamasutra readers bow down and suck to Oblivion
Knights of the Nine
Recommend me shit.
Super Secret RPG Launch Title Conf1rmed!!!1
Bethesda will announce a new game on the 1st November.
Oblivion on PS3 + PSP with new lame faction
My Oblivion Review
Mini Games in TES Games?
Cow Guru, I too have been banned.
Oblivion's Target Audience Finally Revealed.
Time to Throw in the Towel?
Amusing ESF thread

All of them related, in one way or another, to Bethesda or Oblivion.
Really, if you hate Oblivion that much, how about playing some other RPGs, rather than spending all your time bitching about how much it sucks and how nazi the Moderators are.

 

[callehe]

maybe the guy joined the codex to actually be able to discuss oblivion, as compared to esf...

 

[Baphomet]

Yes, it is a very big deal. Bethesda has been misrepresenting their product since before release, and have been censoring anyone who tries to make the truth known. Through censorship and the resulting uncontested/disproven hype, Bethesda is able to succeed in the game-market, and not only will this success influence the direction of RPGs, it will also influence the online marketing of games, game systems, and ultimately anything else that can succeed under this new business model established by Bethesda.

Granted it sucks they do this, but can a business really be expected to pay bandwidth (forums do cost money to run) for people to say "hey, don't buy these guys' products!" Can you name any businesses that do?

As far as "getting the word out" goes, anyone who is going to go to a site owned by the corporation which is selling the product for a fair and balanced review is a few dice short of a set.

 

[Lumpy]

maybe the guy joined the codex to actually be able to discuss oblivion, as compared to esf...

You can discuss Oblivion on ESF just as well as you can on the Codex.
On the other hand, you can't brag about your trolling exploits over there.